#this is why we need more education on intersectional oppression and transandrophobia

[butch-bakugo]

"trans men benefit from misogyny" ok say that slower. Really think on it. Especially within the context of non-passing transman and non-male identified transmascs. Now say it Infront of a trans man. Please say it Infront of me. I will deck you.

[sometimesraven]

transmisogyny is not transphobia against trans women. transmisogyny is the combination and intersection of transphobia and misogyny. that's why transmisogyny has a term and transandrophobia isn't one. molsno has a great and long answer to this question and so does transmisogyny-explained in their carrd. just because you experience something Differently does not mean there needs to be a different word given it's not an intersection of androphobia and transphobia. White trans people experience extremely different transphobia to trans people of color but there doesn't need to be a word for it because there's no intersection of two oppressions, just one oppression combining with another experience. I understand you feel isolated, but no one in the trans community is isolating you for being "afab," and terfs are waiting in the wings for transmascs to fall down the "amabs in the trans community get more attention and resources -> afab trans people are isolated -> afab trans people are oppressed under a specific axis that corresponds to being afab -> sex-based oppression is real -> bioessentialist oppression where trans women have power and trans men are below them -> reproduction of terf ideology with pronouns in it". terfs have already said they're overjoyed about transmascs "recognizing" that they'll "never be prioritized when males are around" etc etc and i have receipts on that. please just listen to the people trying to educate you, even if they aren't "nice enough" about pointing out when you've done something wrong. you're kind of employing a lot of fragility and the stance of a victim to avoid actually responding to a majority of the criticisms. you're 27 and if you can dish out stuff that trans women have been saying forever is transmisogynistic, you should be able to deal with people telling you when you did. tone-policing isn't helping. just apologize.

so it's one particular word you're taking issue with and therefore invalidating my entire personal experience, lol. If you took more than two seconds to actually find out what words mean, you'll see we came up with our own term because there was such a widespread belief that because trans men are men they can't experience transmisogyny.

"White trans people experience extremely different transphobia to trans people of color but there doesn't need to be a word for it because there's no intersection of two oppressions, just one oppression combining with another experience."

that's because white people aren't oppressed for being white???? There are, however, words for the unique ways that BIPoC people experience varying 'phobias. Because it's a unique intersection of the two phobias.

I understand you feel isolated, but no one in the trans community is isolating you for being "afab".

point me to exactly where I said I was being isolated by the community. In fact, when all this harassment started last night I was literally at a birthday party comprised of entirely trans people? I was talking about official resources and local media representation. Trans women aren't excluded from forgetting and ignoring trans men, of course, just as trans men aren't excluded from performing transmysoginy (which i would apologise for if I'd actually done any of the things I'm being accused of), but I never once said it was trans women perpetuating or causing it -- that was a bad-faith argument made by someone who wanted to sound more righteous than they are and drawing conclusions that I said repeatedly I never implied nor said.

I agree that TERF talking points come from conclusions that we can all draw and therefore we must be careful, but I have spoken to every other fucking trans person in my local community of all ages and we all agree that different types of trans people get treated differently because CIS PEOPLE see us differently. Did you not read JKR's bullshit essay? Tell me she didn't treat us differently.

I also agree that we shouldn't need a new word! You're correct! It's absolutely the intersection of transphobia and misogyny!!! So tell that to the large number of people who have repeatedly told us it isn't. The need for a new word comes from the need to describe the unique experience because people like the cunt in my notifs have decided we can't use the original word anymore. You can't tell us we can't use a word and then tell us we can't make up our own one. We've gone through several words y'all have a problem with -- it's obvious by now the issue isn't actually the words we use, it's just that we're voicing it.

Additionally, why is it that y'all can be so aggressive about accusing transmascs of transmisogyny (a form of oppression. therefore implying that we can sideways-oppress trans women) but when we make vent posts that even vaguely maybe possibly seems to (read: doesn't but you want it to) imply that other trans people can treat us badly y'all will lose your minds claiming we're trying to imply trans women are oppressing us???

Let me get this right:

if a trans woman says a transmasc treated them badly for being a different type of trans, the transmasc is wrong because it's sideways oppression

if a transmasc says a trans woman treated them badly for being a different type of trans, the transmasc is wrong because you can't perpetuate sideways oppression

Make it make sense.

I'm not tone policing, I'm telling you y'all are literally making shit up. I'm not apologising for something I didn't do, say, nor imply.

I will apologise for reducing the problem to afab vs amab trans people as that was uncalled for, but while the wording was sloppy the issue is still the same and the response would not have changed.

[neon-slime]

hey, ftm here! we experience specific oppression just like white trans ppl experience specific oppression. trans ppl of color's oppression will always be worse and different than mine. however, intersectional language is used to describe the compounding experience of two types of oppression, which is what transmisogyny is, and which is why transandrophobia and a term for "white transphobia" do not need to exist. for more info, i would read the carrd in transmisogyny-explained's bio that addresses all this, read "female socialization is a myth" by dr devon price, etc. lmk if you're interested in more resources! transphobia is absolutely targeted at us and we do face a lot in society but transphobia really is an adequate word considering the fact that androphobia doesn't exist and in fact most forms of the idea of misandry are just sprouted from misogyny (a hatred towards woman not based on genitalia).

hey anon,

I know you're messaging with genuine intent, but I'm not interested in becoming a discourse blog. I'm sure we've both read various posts and resources on the issue so I'm not gonna take much time defending my opinions. I'm not the most educated person in the world but my opinions aren't formed from pure ignorance either. I genuinely don't understand the pushback against people wanting specific world's to describe their specific experiences and I don't think I ever will.

Intersectional language is used to describe an intersection of identity not exclusively oppression. My identity exists at an intersection of white, trans, mentally ill, Canadian settler on unceded Indigenous lands, etc. Some of my intersections are oppressed classes and some are privileged and all inform my experience.

if a mutual or someone I've interacted with before has an issue with opinions I've stated or concerns they'd like me to hear, I'm more than happy to engage with them in DM but otherwise I'd prefer not to get this type of ask

[thefeistydragon]

Transandrophobia is the mirror of transmisogyny. It's talking about oppression trans men face for being trans men/masc. Please do some research and listen to transmascs before dismissing out of hand a term for the specific issues faced by a marginalized community.

You're doing what a lot of people do, looking at a term and assuming what the meaning is without educating yourself about the way it's used.

You are talking over trans men and not bothering to take the time to find out why we might feel the need to use that term.

Trans men face an intersection of generalized transphobia and misogyny, yes. We also face issues specifically caused by being trans men and should be allowed to have words for that just like every other marginalized community is allowed to have words to describe their experiences.

The way you're going about it here you're more worried about what something might imply about cis men and power structure rather than whether trans men have a way to talk about our issues specific to us.

So, are you the sort of person who cares more about appearances, or who legitimately thinks trans men don't have our own issues that need discussion? I really hope not.

Tldr Maybe stop talking over trans men and trying to take terms that are useful for a community from us based on your own limited knowledge and perceptions?

If you want to actually learn about why people use that term, and why it's necessary in overall discussions of social justice, there are plenty of people happy to help, but the condescension of this whole addition doesn't make me very hopeful for that.

what people need to remember about the whole "do trans men experience misogyny" thing is that bigotry is the fault, problem, and responsibility of the person(s) / system(s) enacting them. a misogynist behaving that way to a trans guy makes the misogynist a misogynist, it doesn't make the trans guy a woman. being misinterpellated as a woman by the medical industrial context complex doesn't mean you're oppressed/erased for being a man, it means that your trans relationship to gender has made you illegible to the clinical gaze. peoples' wrong opinions of your identity dictate who they are, not who you are.