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heroesriseandfall · 1 year ago

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Long post incoming because I really do think these require adequate context.

Did Dick really give Robin away without telling Tim? Did Tim really see Damian in the suit and Dick just let it go?

So, this part happens through several comics written by several writers. So some of it isn't clear. However, this is the chain of events:

Near the end of Tim's solo Robin (1993) in the initial aftermath of Bruce going missing, Tim is toeing some moral lines and acting obsessed. Alfred (recently/soon to be losing his son!) has been increasingly weary of how much danger and work Dick & Tim are taking on alone and asks Tim if he has considered retiring (Robin #178-179). Tim brushes this off, continues working, and nearly gets blown up, burning his head. Alfred insists Tim take a break to heal from his injuries. Tim refuses, using Jason's old Red Robin cowl to cover his injuries and continue working (Robin #180-181). At the end of this arc, Tim also breaks Jason out of Blackgate hoping he’ll become a better person.

Bruce “dies” with a confirmed body and everything in Final Crisis (Dick and Clark personally confirm it; but it's secretly a clone of Bruce), the same event Barry Allen, Kon, and Bart are all brought back to life. Thus starts Battle for the Cowl. Jason goes nuts after Tim broke him out of prison, starts going out as a murderous Batman. Tim insists Dick has to be Batman but Dick refuses. So Tim goes after Jason on his own trying to get Dick to become Batman.

Dick and Alfred get worried, Dick goes after Tim and Alfred gives Damian a makeshift Robin costume and sends him to help Tim. While Dick is fighting Jason, Damian goes and helps Tim, which is when Tim sees him wearing the Robin costume. (This is the same makeshift costume Damian wore after he tried to kill Tim, for the record...) It’s never explicitly stated why Alfred does this aside from trying to lead Damian on a better path, but I think it’s clear from context that Alfred was also very worried about Tim and he hoped this would help Tim.

This is a fuzzy part with writers, because we don't see the aftermath of Tim's reaction to that in Battle for the Cowl, we see it in flashbacks at the beginning of Red Robin. In those, it’s not actually specified that Alfred was the one who gave Damian a costume initially, just that Dick is saying Damian should be Robin to help reign him in. I’m not entirely sure if Tim knows it was Alfred who gave Damian the costume in BftC, he might’ve assumed Dick did it. Certainly, Damian showing up in the costume is likely not how Dick would prefer to have approached this whole situation, but he can’t fix that now.

Edit: this post makes very good points that I agree with. Ultimately Dick has final say on the Robin mantle much more than Alfred ever would. His decision on it happens off panel though so we don’t see exactly how he ended up there, just him explaining his reasoning after the fact. I also do think Alfred’s role is important for context, because while he doesn’t get to choose this, I think him giving Dami back the makeshift costume + Tim seeing Dami in that costume + Alfred advising Dick about it later on likely does play a part.

Dick’s whole reasoning, meanwhile, is partially following with Alfred's argument that Damian needs to be Robin to unlearn assassining. But it's also that Dick by this point is stressed out and grieving, he did NOT want to be Batman, and this whole time Tim has always been essentially Dick's cheerleader. Note that a few years before, Dick had briefly been Batman with Tim as his Robin while Bruce was taking a break (Batman: Prodigal) and Tim had been very “you’re doing great!” back then too even when Dick was feeling like he was a terrible Batman.

sooo Dick really wants his brother to be his equal support while Dick has to take on his dead father’s mantle! Dick has always thought Tim was a great Robin and of course Tim would be ready to become something new just like Dick did as Nightwing! He wants to have basically a Nightwing-and-Batman situation because he doesn't want Tim to be his mentee like Batman-and-Robin, he wants Tim as an equal supporter. Dick feels he needs Tim's support to manage all this. And yes, that is a lot of weight to put on a grieving 17 year old! but again, Dick is not thinking straight, he's stressed out and grieving too.

(Tim, on the other hand, has been using Robin as a coping mechanism for the past several years and feels like, if he isn't Robin how is he supposed to cope? His reaction to all this is VERY much based in his terrible mental health at the time, he destroys a room in the manor and runs off to find Bruce based on little to no real evidence. He fights Steph then Dick to get them to let him leave. In general, this whole situation is just Dick & Tim's mutual terrible mental health causing a series of poorly handled situations.)

Edit note: captainragtag brought up a good point in the tags, which is that Dick & Tim’s perspectives on Robin are also clashing here. Dick is basing things mainly on his experience being Robin, where part of why he became Nightwing was to get out of Bruce’s shadow and do his own thing. On the other hand, Tim views Robin more as like Batman’s uplifter, support, and, like…dog leash. He also established himself as able to work solo much quicker than Dick did as Robin. Tim already views Batman and Robin more as equal partners supporting each other and he doesn’t see Dick’s point there.

(Also, like. Tim does actually end up becoming pretty much what Dick wanted, because it was pretty well suited for him at the time. Just. all of it was a mess for all parties.)

Did he really threaten Tim with Arkham? Was the Justice League and Titans really that bad to Tim, that he was cut off from everyone because of Dick?

No. The Arkham thing is 100% fanon. Tim did overhear Dick and Alfred speculating Tim was in denial about Bruce's death, which is true, and also justified because Alfred had seen Tim react terribly to Jack Drake’s death and Dick knew Tim had spent the past year cloning Kon 99+ times and Dick had not too long ago had to stop Tim from stealing Lazarus water to attempt resurrecting Kon, Steph, and Tim's parents (in Resurrection of Ra’s al Ghul). They have every reason to believe Tim is in denial and handling Bruce's death poorly, because he has exactly that track record, and also he is handling it poorly. They didn't know Tim was listening in.

Right before Tim left, Dick also suggested Tim see a therapist Dick knows in Metropolis (Dick canonically went to therapy for a while around when Jason died). Also right after Tim comes back to Gotham Dick does say Tim is sounding crazy but that's because Tim was hurredly trying to stop Ra's without pausing to explain to Dick what was actually going on. At no point does Dick really do anything unjustifiable re: reacting to Tim's blatant mental health problems/obsession with bringing Bruce back.

(Keep in mind, also at no point did Tim actually, like, explain solid reasoning for why bruce is alive. he knows it sounds crazy, he knows he's going off of basically nothing. And according to some early narration boxes in Red Robin, he wasn’t entirely confident he was right either, he just couldn’t handle being wrong and losing Bruce. So he doesn't bother, which also means no one else understands what his ideas are in the first place.)

As for the JLA and Titans, also no. Tim cut himself off. The actual first person Tim told about believing Bruce was alive was Cassie Sandsmark, but here lies the problem: Cassie was also one of few people who knew about Tim trying to clone Kon, so she had every reason to immediately think Tim was once again grieving terribly and not believe Bruce is alive. Tim runs off after Cassie responds with pity, and she calls Dick.

When Dick tries to confront Tim before Tim leaves Gotham, Tim physically fights Dick and basically gives him an ulimatum of “if you're really my brother, you'll let me do this.” Then he entrusts Dick with watching over Gotham and keeping Damian in line, and he leaves. Dick let’s him because he knows he needs to because Tim is determined and also Tim has a track record of running away to do what he wants.

With regards to the Titans and JLA, Dick is not bad-mouthing Tim to ANYBODY! Also, the Titans and JLA aren't really bad-mouthing Tim either. First off, Tim is not actually the only one who believed Bruce was alive. Barry Allen came back from the speedforce literally the same night Bruce was killed, and his reaction to Bruce's death was basically "ehh it's Batman, he could find his way back" and then his reaction to Hal Jordan mentioning Tim believed Bruce was alive was to go "I like that kid already" (he had never met Tim before).

Completely seperately from Tim, other characters eventually came to the conclusion Bruce was alive. At the end of Blackest Night, after seeing Bruce's “dead body” (actually a clone) resurrect as something that was definitely NOT Bruce, Hal says to Barry that Tim is right, Bruce must be alive. This is without either of them actually knowing anything about Tim’s hypothesis for Bruce being alive.

Later, Dick actually tries to resurrect Bruce in a Lazarus Pit, but it’s actually the body of a clone, which he finds out when what comes back is not really Bruce. This is how he and Alfred determine Bruce must be alive. (Damian still doesn't believe it, because he is 10 and having trouble grappling with Bruce’s death in the first place.) Tim comes back to Gotham with his proof shortly after Dick has started collecting his own proof at Wayne Manor.

At some point Rip Hunter then goes searching for Bruce in time and brings Hal, Clark, and Booster Gold, so they all by that point know Bruce is alive, and the entire JLA and more works with Tim to bring Bruce back. This was a team effort, with more than just Tim having figured out what was going on and working on how to fix it.

Meanwhile, with the Teen Titans, once again, Tim was mainly the one distancing himself. He wasn't responding to calls, kept saying he was busy, he hadn't really internalized that Kon or Bart were alive again yet (they came back the same time Bruce died). However, he does support Kon when Kon is dealing with some identity issues, and Kon immediately says he believes Tim about Bruce.

Tim is certainly distanced and awkward with the Titans at this time but this is largely of his own doing and despite any fears he had, when he rejoins the team they group-hug him. These are his friends, they're not bad-mouthing him, they’re mostly worried and Tim is cutting himself off because he’s in a one-track mindset until he returns to Gotham.

How many times has Tim's line been cut? Has he been threatened with murder? How many times has Damian actually tried to kill him? Has Bruce and Dick and Alfred just ignore the threats? Because he was in the League of Assassins?

The first time Damian tried to kill Tim was when Bruce first brought him back to the manor. This is the shoving-off-the-t-rex thing. Damian grabs a Robin suit and leaves injured Tim in the cave to go find Bruce, hoping to be Robin now. Bruce realizes Damian has done something to Tim and goes back to the cave. Alfred takes care of Tim's injuries, he and Bruce are both mad at Damian. Neither Bruce NOR Alfred are excusing Damian’s actions during this. Dick isn’t even in the arc—he learned about Damian off-panel...

…because the important thing to note in the aftermath of Damian first attacking Tim is that Damian leaves after. Bruce takes Damian with him to deal with some Talia mess. Damian gets injured and Talia takes him with her, away from Bruce. So there isn’t really a chance for Bruce to give or not give consequences for Damian's actions, or to figure out a way to deal with both of them in the immediate aftermath, because Damian is not at the Manor, by neither Bruce’s nor Tim’s choice.

Damian doesn’t return until Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul, by which time Dick has already heard of him off-panel and doesn't have the highest opinion of him (though he'll still protect him because Damian is literally a child). Damian actually comes to them for protection from Ra’s who is trying to possess him.

Tim sees Damian helping Alfred up from tripping and presumes Damian is hurting him, so he attacks Damian. Tim gets into several fistfights with Damian, one time of which he's actually the one who threatens to kill Damian although it was probably more of an in-the-moment exclamation than anything else. Damian did insult Tim, but was not trying to kill him at this time, and please note Damian is 10 and Tim is 17, so Tim is noticeably bigger, older, and more experienced. (This is all in Robin #168.)

The other murder attempt you may have heard of is when Damian cut Tim's line (Red Robin #13-14). This is right after Tim comes back to Gotham from looking for Bruce, but before they've officially brought Bruce back. Tim has been creating a list of potential threats to prepare himself against (including allies such as Superman and Wonder Woman; like Bruce’s JLA plans).

Damian hacks into Tim’s files and sees himself on that list. This hits his insecurities as he has been working diligantly to control himself to be a good Robin and follow their rules, and he's upset to be dismissed as a threat (and yes, it's justified for Tim to see him that way at this point, he hasn't witnessed Damian's progress! but also Damian is 10 and is not thinking about it like that).

Damian responds to that insecurity by trying to topple a billboard on Tim, which Tim dodges, and then by cutting Tim’s line. I think Damian was mainly acting on instinct by this point, not really thinking this through as like a serious murder attempt. Tim catches himself and he and Damian fight each other until Dick shows up and stops them. You could call that two attempts but they’re rolled into one and some people think Dami was not seriously trying/expected Tim to survive. Note for that one, Tim does not actually say to anyone that Damian cut his line, he just says Damian “jumped” him. Dick responds to this event as if it is what it looked like it was when he showed up: just a fistfight.

Damian reveals the situation with the list, and Dick sees both of their perspectives on it and responds fine. He tries to get Tim to see how hard Damian is trying to be accepted, but he also is understanding of why Tim would put Damian as a threat and he changes Tim's password to an inside joke so Damian can't hack in again. For the situation Dick thought it was, he responded perfectly appropriately. Nobody else actually knows about the cut line because Tim does not actually say what happened.

Dick is sympathetic to Damian's upbringing, but that doesn’t mean he is just letting things slide. He’s trying his best to help Damian, but he IS a lot closer to Tim who has been his close brother for years by this point. When Damian insults Tim after Tim finds out about the Robin mantle, Dick tells Damian to shut up. He isn’t letting things slide so much as struggling to balance caring for both of them and also he doesn’t actually know everything Damian has done since he never actually witnessed the first murder attempt and he didn’t know about the line.

(Damian & Tim’s relationship starts improving after that. Tim is as usual a massive Dick Grayson fan so he trusts Dick’s word in regards to Damian, and tries to get along (though that doesn’t mean he and Damian won’t ever insult each other). and Damian is genuinely trying to follow their rules and be Robin, so he is also trying. He had already agreed to the no killing by this point anyway. By the time Batman: Gates of Gotham happens Dami and Tim are not close but they’re working together fine without much complaint.)

How much had Damian gotten away with that the other three Robins haven't?

I guess you could argue he "gets away" with becoming Robin even when everyone knows he's already killed people before. Though like...every Robin with the exception of probably Steph was known to have contemplated murder or accidentally killed as Robin, and they were still allowed to continue after some conversations about how that shouldn’t happen; so it's not as if there's no precedent for Bruce forgiving that. (edit: dyke-terra has pointed out, even Steph! Though Bruce had much less tolerance for her stepping out of line than the others.)

But for the most part Damian is judged quite harshly, especially in the beginning. Bruce refuses to work with him multiple times, instead opting to work with Tim and leave Damian to Dick (Bruce verbally rejects working with Damian in front of him, even though Damian spent Bruce’s death wishing he could get to know Bruce more), before Bruce finally begins working with Damian. Bruce, Dick, and Alfred are not just allowing Damian to go do whatever he wants.

Many times I would actually say Bruce is overly harsh with Damian when he should be taking a more understanding approach. In general, Bruce’s parenting leaves a lot to be desired, but until New 52 starts he was also showing clear favoritism towards Tim and against Damian as a crime fighting partner.

Jason's only tried once, at the Tower correct? Or has it been more?

So that depends on how much you interpret how hard he is actually trying to kill Tim. He has attacked Tim more than once, seemingly not caring if Tim died, but also considering how skilled he is, his efforts are lackluster.

The first time was actually in Batman: Hush. Jason reveals himself, cuts Tim’s throat, but there’s no sign he actually intended to kill Tim then and the injury is taken care of soon after, not treated as a remarkably serious one. Jason fights and taunts Bruce for a bit, then switches out with Clayface to make everyone think that was all to mess with their heads and he wasn’t really resurrected.

And then, after he does fully reveal himself to Bruce, then there’s the Titans Tower attack. The impression I got from Teen Titans (2003) #29 (where Jason attacks Tim at the Tower) is more that Jason was testing Tim’s mettle and taking out some anger than that he was like, going there with the specific intention to kill Tim. He leaves Tim beaten up and bloody but not enough for Tim to die and Jason’s thoughts don’t suggest that’s what he was gunning for. That doesn’t justify it. I just don't count that as a murder attempt.

(Also, contrary to fanon, Tim was not cowed by this, he was basically rolling his eyes the entire fight even while losing. Also Tim had already heard about Jason off-panel and he was at the Tower for his weekly Titans Tower weekend stay, not because Bruce sent him to hide out or whatever. And Tim lived in Blüdhaven by himself at the time, not Gotham. Anyway!)

Jason also fought Tim in Battle for the Cowl, when Tim tried to stop Jason from becoming Batman after Bruce's death just to kill indescriminately. Jason stabbed Tim and later goes off and tells Dick that he killed Tim, but unbeknownst to Jason, Tim’s armor blocked it and he’s alive. That one could count as a murder attempt. But like, again. Honestly Jason could have tried harder. Clearly he didn’t even double check Tim’s pulse for tricks.

Did Tim really kill hundreds of assassins?

This is a mixup between the writer's clear intentions vs. them accidentally writing things that can easily lead to a different conclusion. By this point in Red Robin, Tim was talking up how he was done compromising his morals and toeing the line, etc. so he was obviously not supposed to be killing anyone. However, he does rig Ra’s computers to blow up in all his bases, which plausibly could or should have led to loss of life that Tim couldn't have accounted for.

I’d say that this is a case where the writer intended for Tim not to have killed anyone and that lines up with how Tim acts, but the writer also seemingly forgot to actually, explicitly provide a reasonable explanation of how Tim could possibly have ensured that nobody was harmed when he blew up all those bases. This is like whenever Batman throws goons off snowy cliffs and that’s fine they must’ve mysteriously survived! So by interpretation you can say it looks like Tim probably killed people, but also, that doesn’t seem to be the intention.

Dick has killed before hasn't he?

Yes...ish. He beat the Joker to death in Joker: Last Laugh when Tim was mistakenly presumed killed in Joker's plot and Joker kept taunting Dick with Jason's death. However, Joker was rescucitated, and then Dick proceeds to temporarily quit as Nightwing because he DOES have a very firm belief in the no killing rule and feels like he has done huge wrong by breaking it. He hates the idea of being a killer. It takes a while for him to reconcile this and be Nightwing again.

Dick also has a massive guilt complex, so sometimes he will be some part of the cause of someone's death and then take that on himself as if he actually did the murdering. This is the case with Blockbuster—Blockbuster had been destroying Dick’s life and Dick was in a terrible mental space, so he stepped aside to let Catalina Flores kill Blockbuster even though he could’ve stopped her.

Dick completely blames himself for quite a while after, and considers himself to be a murderer who broke the no killing rule, despite not being the one who did the actual murdering. Bruce is willing to forgive Dick for this (and Tim does so immediately, despite no one even telling him it happened) but Dick still blames himself.

Who has the highest kill count? Jason or Tim, if Tim's is true?

Jason. Jason has killed in large amounts nearly indiscriminately (in his early Red Hood era he’s not even necessarily picky about how bad the person is, despite claiming the moral high ground on only killing bad people; he’s not too concerned about civilian casualties and he’ll kill a petty thief to make a point). The assassins thing is mostly on a meta level of evaluating the text, and is not suggested to be true by the plot of the story. Whereas Jason has killed a lot. I’m not entirely sure how much and I believe some of it’s been retconned away, but he’s definitely killed more than Tim. He’s supposed to have killed more than Tim, narratively.

How much is fanon and how much is canon?

Unfortunately a lot of the time you can presume most of what you’ve learned is hearsay or one person’s very specific interpretation of events lacking half the context. :(

Did Dick really give Robin away without telling Tim? Did Tim really see Damian in the suit and Dick just let it go? Did he really threaten Tim with Arkham? Was the Justice League and Titans really that bad to Tim, that he was cut off from everyone because of Dick?