#their massive hearts just won't allow them to tolerate the suffering of others

[pastafossa]

I love this take, like YES. Both of them are motivated by these massive hearts, and the same empathy. They feel the same driving fire when seeing an innocent person's pain. If all crime suddenly ceased, they'd both hang up their batons guns kevlar devil suit tools most likely, and they would and have absolutely taken those bullets both physical and metaphorical for others. It's so important to realize that what they do is something they do in response to the suffering of others. It's not a decision they made in a vacuum, and it's not something you can just ask them to stop while that suffering continues (though we see them both try to walk away from it at least once). Because they can't. They can't stand to see that suffering, and so they both, in their own ways and driven by the pain of others, set about trying to prevent it, to save lives.

And ironically, the issue they have over how to do that is one of the oldest ethical debates around: do the ends justify the means?

One ethical side, Utilitarianism, says the ends absolutely justify the means. It's focused on consequences, on a formula: does this help more people than it hurts? If it does, then it's moral and you go through with it. That's where Frank stands. He kills a murderer not because he finds killing fun, but because he looks at the murderer and believes, 'I'll prevent more people being harmed by killing this one person.' And logically, it makes sense. If that man would go on to harm 20 other people, killing that one person seems moral. Cut the chain, and the line of suffering stops. He's preventing harm and suffering by taking out those who harm others, and the reputation he spreads discourages others from going after innocents because they know that the Punisher can't be reasoned with, can't be convinced, and he won't let them walk away. They'll just be dead.

The other side, the side Matt tends to follow, is deontology. In this category, the ends don't always justify the means. An action is judged not on potential consequences, but on whether the action itself is right or wrong. Matt will beat folks up in defense of others, send them to jail where their harm can be restrained, but all of those actions in and of themselves can be considered right. Murder, however, is always wrong to him, no matter what the potential future consequence is, because human life is inherently valuable. He clings tight to that, and to the chance for redemption - even a murderer might have a scrap of good in them, and that scrap of good is worth saving, worth giving a chance to grow. What he does is still about preventing suffering, but it's also about making sure there's always a door open for them to become good and help others. And it's just as much about preventing himself from crossing that line and potentially darkening the good inside of himself, becoming that which he fights every night.

They both see the suffering of others and refuse to accept it, which is one reason they're both so sympathetic, and why we can often find ourselves rooting for Matt and Frank regardless of the morality issue. They've both just come down on opposing sides of a long-standing ethical debate when it comes to preventing harm. But it is about preventing harm. And it is absolutely driven, openly, authentically, fully, by their massive hearts.

God I wish I could show my old college Ethics professor the scene of Frank and Matt arguing on the rooftop. He'd have a field day with it and I know for a fact that he'd show it every semester precisely to tie up students with, well they both care about people and want to prevent harm, who's right?

"You're one bad day away from being me." "The Punisher and Daredevil are two sides to the same coin." Blah blah blah.

You know what Matt and Frank's problem is? Their hearts are too big. They see pain - innocent people's pain. And they know they can't fix it, can't take it away. Can't change the past. But they can stop the source of the pain and prevent it from ever causing pain again. It's not about punishing - it's about prevention. Cause their damn hearts are too big. Because they both would happily take a bullet just to protect some child they'd never met. To protect normal people just living their lives even if they had no concept of who those people actually were.

Their hearts are just too damn big...