#their characters are godawful and the narrative thinks they're perfect

[bardicious]

Okay, but, what I really like about the Becky marriage episode (s7e8) is that despite generally being a funny episode, it actually takes what Becky did to Sam pretty seriously? A few things:

Sam openly saying that what Becky did was the same as giving him a roofie.

Dean doesn't make a joke about anything that happens to Sam in this episode. This is a big one, because many shows generally take light of female on male rape. They'll gloss over it, victim blame, or generally treat the man lowly. It happens all the time! But they did the opposite here! Dean hated her guts, beginning to end. Never believed Sam could fall for her. And when it was all over, he still didn't give a shit that she "saved" Sam, he just wanted her to sign the damn divorce papers so they could go.

Sam also didn't forgive her, didn't like her at all even at the end. He gives her some advice, but that's just cause he's a generally sweet guy or maybe he's just looking out for her next target. lmao. The narrative is not on her side either way.

Overall I'm just impressed, so far as I've watched it, the series has a good track record of self awareness. It's a welcome change from something like Marvel, which constantly condones and encourages shitty people and puts them into hero roles.

[thyandrawrites]

For ship bingo, could you please do bachisagi, ryusae, and rin x hiori?

Sure 👀

Bachisagi:

They are SO married it's literally unreal. They're even more obvious than nagireo and nagireo have a whole spinoff manga to be unapologetically gay and in love in. I'm so amused at how the author keeps waxing poetics about how they are made to be each other's perfect "partner" with increasingly not platonic framing. It's great. Bachisagi shippers are the only ones who keep eating here and I love that for us.

On a more serious note, I am really fond of this ship! I've mentioned before that I see parallels between them and the rin&sae and nagireo dynamics, and at some point I will get off my ass and compile a post on it because there is really so much to say. But even beyond meta, I like them as a ship because there's so much good old tension between them. At the very beginning I wanted to ship it but it bothered me how Bachira was constantly checking for Isagi's approval before doing anything, and then the author came in a clutch with that backstory and was like "did you know bachira has been soul-crushingly lonely all his life until Isagi came around and was put on a bit of a pedestal as a result?" and then BAM they get split up and it's angsty and horrible and it makes them confront their codependency but, wait for it !! they grow from it!! We love to see that. Look, I love good ol' pining and even codependency when done in a certain way, but I can't deny that bachisagi using their time apart to better themselves and be stronger for when they'll compete with / fight alongside each other is a great narrative choice. If you allow me to draw a parallel with nagireo, it's what Nagi thought he was doing when he joined Isagi in the 3v3, except Nagi's communication skills are godawful and his intentions backfired. But Bachira and Isagi get it right, and are so much stronger for it. We love to see that. I love pairings that draw strength from each other while still remaining self-sufficient individuals so it's no surprise I ship this. It's not super high on my ship list because at times it's too healthy and pink confetti and fluff for my personal taste, but I love them a lot anyway. It's crazy to me that they just met a few months ago and still clicked this hard (another parallel to ngreo lmao), but that's just more fodder for the "soulmates" angle.

Ryusae:

I say this ship is the worst in the most affectionate way possible :'D I still can't believe some of their lines are canon dhshjsjsjd I'll be real, I can't take these two seriously at all, but that's mostly my reaction to Shidou in general. They're both deranged in very similar ways, so it's no wonder they clicked. Shidou is one of those characters I would love to read about, but I'm terrified of touching fanon and possibly see what I consider his most interesting faucets of characterization sandpapered away for the sake of making romance plots work. He... Is not a fave of mine but he's interesting to be sure, and so is Sae. They're both extremely bad at expressing their emotions in a way that doesn't put others off and come across as selfish, and I think developing their bond romantically could be an interesting challenge. But since Shidou is... Well, Shidou, I think a lot of their ff will be full of nsfw and dirty flirting, which is not my thing. So that too has put me off from really getting into the ship.

That said, one of my favourite authors has written for them, so I can see myself being converted to this pairing in the future. They managed to make me a Rin enjoyer when Rin just made me roll my eyes so I absolutely trust their magic skills lmao

Hiorin:

I didn't know this ship was a thing until literally yesterday, when I found this post about them. I don't ship them quite yet, but this is another case where I can see myself caving in if the right author sells it well to me.

I too noticed the scene the post mentions, where Rin accepts Hiori's help and doesn't lash out at his concern like usual, and I found it cute. Rin's walls are sky high so it surprised me too. Plus Hiori could definitely use a friend to vent to who wouldn't judge, and I don't think any of the other boys would quite get his family situation, not how Rin might. So basically the premises for a cool dynamic are already there, and I've shipped characters who never met before based on my guess of their potential chemistry before, so. I can totally get behind this. Rn I see them as friends, but I haven't gone out to hunt for fics about them yet

[angelshizuka]

Is there anything at all that you actually like in F2? Mostly plot-wise, maybe outfits, if you must. I'm not counting songs bc I must admit they're pretty good (not my favorite though). Im asking bc I'm not a fan of this movie either, but I'm trying to find some positive aspects, waiting for the unevitable F3...

There are definitely things in F2 I actually like, but that's also part of the problem for me. The puzzle pieces were there, but holy hell did they fail the landing...

Basically, I do like the designs and visuals. Aside from a few details (since nothing's perfect) I genuinely love the outfits, animation, the locations and new characters (though underdeveloped). I love the songs out of context, but in context almost all of them suck and I still find it hard to even listen to them (not you TNRT, we're happy to have you here! <3)

I honestly don't even hate Ahtohallan and Northuldra in concept, it's just the excecution I think is godawful.

Though, there is one thing I still have a problem when it comes to Ahtohallan, even in concept. Iduna is the one who preformed the good deed that gave Elsa her powers, yet she was punished with death for daring to seek answers after watching BOTH her children suffer for a decade and just wanting to help her child who's literally terrified of this "gift". And just in general the idea that Elsa got rewarded for something she had literally nothing to do with, but still gets praised to hell and back for it like she deserved it, despite all she did was be born...

Anyway, it's definitely my Anna bias, but she's the character I hate the least in this sequel. I definitely hate the "haha look how crazy she is" type of writing when she's experiencing 100% valid paranoia in a dangerous sitiation she was literally told beforehand Elsa could die from if gone wrong. But besides that it's actually nice seeing Anna mature after having her naivety slapped out of her by reality at the end of F1. Her arc to becoming queen was basically non-existent (because everything had to be about Elsa, even Anna becoming queen was more about Elsa than it was about Anna), but as a concept I love it.

I also liked seeing more of Iduna, but once again comes with the problem that thanks to the narrative it comes across like Iduna heavily favors Elsa. We literally see Anna being forced to sleep instead of being allowed to hear the whole song like Elsa... There was literally no valid reason for this (especially when you consider this is the night of the accident and Anna wakes up again later, so yes, she was forced to sleep when she wasn't ready yet). And then it's once again Elsa getting the "special moment" with Iduna in Ahtohallan, while Anna's literally down in a ditch.

Speaking of, F2 has felt "off" to me since the first time I watched it, but I couldn't really put my finger on why, so just shruffed it off. But then they released the "Her love could hold up the world." deleted scene (basically giving Anna an Iduna moment like Elsa got) and that's when my downward spiral of hating this sequel really started. It made me realize how with every change they made, the worse it got.

TNTR is my favourite scene in the entire movie and it makes sense when you consider it's one of the very oldest concepts that made it into the final cut (it's confirmed the oldest song). But yeah, that's definitely another positive, I genuinely love the part of the movie when it's just Anna. It's not just my Anna bias, it's just that Elsa in F2 pisses me off any time she's on screen, because of the way she's written, voice acted, animated ect.

I didn't mean for this to turn out so negative, despite me genuinely liking some things in F2, it's just so mixed in with all the bad stuff it's hard not to mention it.

Also, general reminder (not aimed at you, Anon): My F2 rants aren't an inviation to argue with me.

[aceofwands]

do NOT apologise, I love me some meta analysis of Trek, especially when it's stuff I've never really thought about super deeply, like I'm sure I read all of the A Time To ... novels back when I was a teenager and I have apparently retained nothing from them, cause I can't even remember if it was the duology with Wes in them which I had issues with or a different pair of those novels! (my relationship with the novels is SO hit or miss, there are some I would die for, whose characters or arcs should absolutely be canon, and others that I was like oh good I'm glad your dumb universe got sucked into a black hole and ceased to exist cause your narrative decisions were godawful, so ymmv) so I think whatever happened with Wes in the novel canon (never read many comics) probably also lowkey informs my thoughts about this different version of the future as well

and this all makes perfect sense to me, especially with your reminder that it's only been 10 years, like I honestly am pretty shaky on my timeline of everything post-Nemesis when it comes to the new stuff, and that does put things in a slightly different perspective for me, but also like ....... this is the problem when you explicitly turn the character into a being who now exists outside the spacetime continuum as we know it, where I'm like uh huh sure it probably does take years if not decades for Wes to get over that guilt, but he could literally zip back to 10 mins after he left to talk to his fucking mother once he realised that he wanted to reestablish a fucking relationship with her - which, yeah, don't even get me started on the complete absence of a real and genuine relationship between Beverly and her son, like, honestly, I am THRILLED that Prodigy showed us that he had in fact been in touch, because literally everything they did with her character (and most of the others) in Picard went straight into my mental dumpster fire (literally do not get me started on Jack Crusher-Picard and that whole trash heap)

I also looooooove your point about the Travelers showing up at exactly the perfect moment for Wes, who was in crisis, to not notice all the ways that it was ... eerily similar to Starfleet, yet without the support network of colleagues and shipmates!!! and without having to worry about anything as pesky as the possibility of meeting and falling in love and starting his own family - like, how much do we think the appeal wasn't just, wow you're super special and can learn to manipulate reality beyond anything your friends and family can comprehend, and actually, hey join us and you'll never have to worry about dying for Starfleet like your father did!

like the more I kind of analyse these choices for his character the more I'm like hmmmmmm iiiiinteresting

I also think there's a huge dichotomy I can't reconcile, with Wes, and SO many other characters in new Trek especially, where I'm struggling with the gaping chasm between this universe which explicitly shows us characters facing their shit in therapy, going to counsellors to process the insane trauma they're living through, going so far as to have a therapist on the bridge of the flagship, and yet I'm meant to also accept that those same characters in the same universe aren't dealing with their shit for like a decade plus, according to the new shows, it just doesn't compute for me - but like Wes is honestly the easiest to accept that from because he was whisked away when he was still so fucking young, and he was always very ... idk like you said he was very good at ignoring his internal emotions to do what was expected, and then right when he finally was able to admit this internal conflict he'd kept hidden from everyone around him, instead of having to face the fallout from that and work through it and come to a new understanding with his friends and family as he found a new path that was right for him and they all accepted and supported him in that, he fucked off out of our dimension and never had to deal with any of it :/

and whoops, I really didn't mean to turn this into like five paragraphs of me bitching about the new shows (okay lbr it's mostly Picard, for the record I enjoyed the fuck out of Prodigy, it connecting itself to Picard was my only issue with it, and Wes was one of the few things that had me hmmmmm-ing because of all the aforementioned stuff) but all of your thoughts about him have made me feel a lil better about the path they chose for him, because at least it is internally consistent with where he was as a character in TNG - even if he still felt a lil too much like The Doctor from Doctor Who compared to the kid we knew lmao

@aceofwands sorry for how long this is you asked The Most annoying person on the planet about this subject. godbless.

basically what we see in prodigy is the “happy ending” for wes. he obviously wouldn’t have been happy with a future in starfleet, and even if the accident in first duty hadn’t been the catalyst leading him to quit then he would’ve still been miserable. and maybe he could’ve ignored that issue for longer but starfleet was what everyone else wanted for him, not what he actually wanted. and his mom and all his friends are in starfleet so no matter what he did there would’ve been some awkward disconnect there after he left.

and as much as he “deserved” a happy ending of just being some random guy in the federation living and ordinary life that was never really an option. like you take this 15 year old who gets to work on the bridge of starfleet flagship and gets promoted to a full ensign before even going to the academy and THEN being chosen for the special elite flight team when he was only a sophomore. he was never going to live an ordinary life because everyone always told him he was special and better than that. so of course he said yes when the traveler showed up and asked wesley to join him because he was Special and they’ve been watching him since he was a kid (and oh you have to leave your entire life behind but don’t mind that). especially since that offer came at a very emotionally volatile time, since he just quit starfleet. he’s spent his entire life living by the starfleet rules and ideals and suddenly another organization shows up that can offer that same structure to fill the gaping hole in his life. there wasn’t really a choice!

so then there’s 1) already a disconnect since everyone he knows is in starfleet and he’s Not 2) his departure from starfleet was already very upsetting and shameful and he doesn’t want to relive that and 3) as a traveler he’s very far away from everything he knows and he’s not even really a human anymore and he can’t explain the things he’s seen to the people from his old life. it makes sense why he doesn’t go back. and then as the years go by it gets harder and harder to reconnect because you can’t just show up after being a missing person for 10 years and expect everything to go back to normal. i think there’s a lot of guilt wrapped up in this, where he feels really really bad for not visiting his mom and thinks about her constantly but still. doesn’t go back.

⬆️⬆️⬆️ NOW IGNORE MY THREE PARAGRAPHS JUSTIFYING IT. BECAUSE NO MATTER WHAT POOR ME SOB STORY WESLEY HAS IGNORING HIS MOTHER FOR YEARS IS HORRIBLE. this is NOTTTT me making justifications on how he’s right it’s just my analysis of the situation. wesley was literally the only family bev had left and he just disappeared without a word. i could write another whole 5+ paragraph post about the fucked up dysfunctional crusher dynamics and how neither of them reallyyyy talk to each other but it fucking sucks!!! he should not have done that and it doesn’t matter what his excuse is. what my interpretation of the dynamic boils down to is that wesley is in a rut of self pity where he feels Really Really bad about not visiting his mom and that if he feels guilty enough that makes up for everything. and beverly is doing her best to pretend everything is fine and her son is not a missing person who may or may not be dead Please Don’t Mention Him Okay.

in summary. yes wesley not seeing any of his friends or family sucks but that’s kind of the best ending for him. and i think he does actually care about them but feels too guilty to go back.