#the only female character doesn't make a conclusive ending to her arc... no she just revives le'garde and help him ascend

[bb-fennelposting]

Sorry but Le'garde as Clear Sky fucks so much

A pale grey cat in the catacombs with a single minded determination for godhood no matter the cost. And it would be commendable if he also wasn't a war criminal and a huge dick about it.

Clear Sky just going into the Eldritch horror hole to become a god is just so in character, trying to become the god of the "Open Sky" Vast from TMA style, or maybe the God of the Clans, since he embodies the clans pretty well, single minded determination and bravery while also being a complete asshole.

Also it sorta works out but not really, which is also very Clear Sky to me

oh man that DOES fuck really hard. also ties the themes of F&H and BB!DOTC really damn well

we're just making a warrior cats funger AU now. and i am 10000% on board

[eelclaw]

okay new arc... my thoughts.

leafstar:

leafstar was one of my favorite characters as a kid, but not because of anything she actually did. i liked her graphic novels, but only mostly because i was delighted by sol being a pathetic girlfailure.

also my copy of skyclan's destiny was misprinted and had pages out of order, and i loved having a fucked up book.

i liked her in firestar's quest, but... she's done nothing in every book since.

sharpclaw pushes her around in skyclan's destiny, then tells her he was just challenging her to make her a more confident leader. nothing comes out of this.

she's worried about female leaders not being allowed to have kits and about inviting daylight warriors into the clan, and it would've been great to just skip these plotlines entirely. skyclan had a chance to be a different kind of clan, a breath of fresh air from the shit we normally read about, and they didn't take it.

in ravenpaw's farewell she decides that skyclan hates outsiders. then ravenpaw proves her wrong by helping chase out some rogues that skyclan somehow couldn't chase out on their own, so she changes her mind, but only enough to take in bella and riley.

the general back-and-forth and nothing getting done in avos, tbc, and asc just annoys me.

her going blind is actually pretty interesting, but it needs to be handled well, and it's not going to be.

she's pretty old at this point, so i hope she dies, but the kid in me still hopes she gets an awesome death.

tawnypelt:

the way she's treated in avos and in her novella is incredibly uninteresting.

her clanmates don't take her seriously because of how closely she was associated with rowanstar. that's cool! that's interesting! but how long has it been since avos? she's far and away proved herself to be a valuable member of shadowclan.

the "kids these days" plotline is so fucking frustrating, i don't want it to come back.

i thought her novella had a nice conclusion. she accepted that her lost loved ones were lost, and that she could not go back to the way things were, but she could keep moving forward, and she would see her family in starclan some day. from the blurb, this conclusion is going to be completely trampled.

i'm also sick of tigerheartstar changing every book, just to drive whatever the current mess of a plot is.

moonpaw:

not many thoughts. betting her parents are nightheart and sunbeam.

hoping she's distinct from frostpaw and shadowsight. i can't take a third one.

it would be interesting if nightheart dies before she's born, paralleling larksong dying before nightheart was born. then nightheart might realize a bit of what his parents were going through.

overall. not hopeful. i'm super tired of the formula they've been using for the past few arcs. i don't care about "the end of the cats' connection to starclan". just because these books are about religious cats doesn't mean we can't have deep, meaningful, character-driven plots. why can't we get one of those.

[musicaltrash]

I think the reason I love Grace Chasity so much is because she doesn't fit the mold of a lot of female characters in media, especially in musicals.

A lot of musicals only have women as love interests, so creating a character who's primary motive is to get rid of her love interest feels innovating to be honest.

Also, I love the fact that Grace losing her chastity didn't just cause her to become non-religious or reject her religion at all. She was doing it to save her friends, but she still wants to rid the world of horny men, just like she wanted to stop the Homecoming dance because of the same horny people. Just because she gave up her chastity doesn't mean it's still not important to her— it's still her most cherished thing.

Grace is literally the main character of NPMD. Sure, Peter and Steph have their whole romance arc and a lot of songs, but Grace is the only one who truly caused and fixed the issue that drove the plot of the musical. She made the plan to scare Max, and then she had sex to stop Max. She couldn't have done it without the others, but it felt great to watch this because typically the true main character is one of the people in the primary romantic relationship.

And the fact that all Hatchetfield musicals have a sad ending— sure, NPMD would've been sad already because of the deaths, but it seemed as if things were going to be fine in Best Of You. And then Grace shows up, realizing that there isn't just one god over the Hatchetfield universe and embracing that magic exists, while still believing in her religion because fuck you. Her chasity is important, and she will destroy all the men that make her feel even the tiniest bit attracted to them.

In conclusion, Live laugh love Grace Chasity (I still need to watch Abstinence Camp so idk everything about her yet)

[reikunrei]

Omg thank you for your post about El!! That theory is fun and all but I can't believe people think it has any chance of happening in the show. It would amount to a "it was all a dream" ending, people who hate it, and most of all, as you said it wouldn't make sense. I wonder what you think El's ending is going to be, staying true to the themes of the show? I have no idea what they're going to do with her character and I'm really curious to find out. There's also that video of Millie saying she saw her character's ending and thought "ooohh" and walked away slowly. I feel like dying isn't a good choice but then she's just going to be living her life with her friends and her new found family? That seems too... simple. I'm curious to know your thoughts!

yeah, it's a theory that really drives me up a wall because it sequesters el into this "she's not actually important at all" role, which is just... shitty. for all their flaws, the duffers have a pretty good track record when it comes to writing strong female characters (for the most part), and so it feels just wildly out of character for them to pull the rug out from under el and say "oh, she wasn't actually real the entire time" (whether that be for will-based or mike-based manifestation theories. in both (or any) cases, it pushes her into a position of solely aiding her male counterparts and undoing everything handled in her own personal arc. thus: misogyny).

like you said, it really does feel akin to the "it was all a dream" types of storylines, which the duffers have explicitly scoffed at and said is not what's happening. so like, even if it wouldn't completely undermine the story as it's been presented to us thus far, we have more-or-less solid confirmation that it wouldn't be the basis of st5's conclusion, straight from the horse's mouth.

the only time "it's all fake/it's not real" really comes into play (from what we've seen) is regarding stuff with the lab and, specifically, the mf and henry. the "it's all just a dream" stuff is already explicitly presented to us as a bad thing, or not the solution and rather part of the problem. even as it specifically ties to el, nina is something that's largely or entirely fabricated (even if it has real anchor points), and while she comes out of it having regained her powers, that's very likely not the only goal of nina (but i won't get into that here, that's something james talks about a lot in his upcoming thesis post) and the unreality of it all is much more nefarious than it's been presented as thus far.

i mean, even thinking about st2 and will facing the mf as if it's not real/just a nightmare that he can tell to "go away"... only to have that trust in unreality be his whole undoing? like... it just doesn't make sense to me to make "she's not real" a conclusion when every single bit of unreality we've seen thus far has only aggravated things.

and i know i said this in the tags of that post earlier, but just to bring it to the forefront here... it really confuses me to have el's arc be about being different, being an outsider, and feeling like she doesn't belong because she's weird or "the monster"... only to say she should just be shut away forever or killed because of it? like... just say you think "undesirable" weird people should be separated from society and be done with it.

it's the antithesis of the entire show. stranger things, at its core, since the beginning, has been about society's outcasts trying to find their place in the world and accepting their "freak" side and not trying to "fit in." our introduction of henry has explicitly furthered this idea by putting the burden of accommodation on society, not on the individual. and i'd be shocked if they had her reach a point where she felt like she couldn't find a place in the world when we already see that she's more than capable of fostering a comfortable environment with her friends. it's too much like just... giving up, to go the route of "she's not real."

as for what i think the end of her story will be... i have no idea LOL i don't feel confident enough in anything to put down something concrete here. basically, i just don't think it's going to be something akin to "she's a figment of someone's imagination" or was "created" by one of the other characters. she has her own story, her own history, her own life. i don't know what millie could have been reacting to, but i wouldn't be shocked if it was less so "el's ending" and more so something about answering the question of who she really is. so... less of "what's her last scene on the show" and more just... generally figuring out what her whole deal is, you know? because there's still a lot of holes in her past that need filling.

so i guess an answer i can give here, which is definitely wishful thinking, is that i believe the way her story is "wrapped up" will revolve around learning who her parents really are and the actual history of her life (ie. she's not actually jane ives, one of the henries is her parent in some way shape or form, perhaps even brenner is her biological father in some way, etc.), while also touching on the truth of what happened in the lab in 1979 and forward/figuring out just how messy the order of events presented in nina was. like, i firmly believe that the ending of her arc will involve having to come to terms with some really harsh truths about herself and her lineage, and finally wrap up the whole "monster vs superhero" argument she's had going on in her head. so i do think she'll get her "happy life" with her new family and friends, it'll just be a very messy road to get there.

which ties very neatly into some of the overall themes of the show: that sometimes good people do bad things, bad people do good things, not everything is black and white, and the answer to everything is love, compassion, and understanding, even when someone does something "monstrous."

anyway. thank you for giving me a reason to talk about this more and sorry for rambling LOL this stuff just gets me heated!! it annoys me to no end to see characters constantly shoved into the position of "supporting byler" at the expense of their own arcs, and it especially stings for me when it's done to el. especially because i'm in the camp of, if the show had to pick a singular main character, it would be el. she's the tie between the outside world and the lab. she's the one person who helps to really keep everything together and offer answers. so it just feels wildly counterintuitive to essentially give all of that to someone else and make her an expendable middleman.

[dacrekayd]

Sorry I'm gonna rant a little in ur inbox...

So much ro//nance bases around Nancy and her development and growth, while completely neglecting Robin's character all together. "The great way for Nancy to finish off her arc is to get with Robin! She doesn't need a man(but apparently can't end without a love interest)!" It's often paired with "Nancy is not a prize for Steve/Jonathan" but then turning around and treating Robin as a prize for Nancy. It's frustrating! I agree that, even if Nancy was attracted to girls and liked Robin, Robin has probably not even thought about Nancy as a romantic prospect because she was 1) dating Jonathan the entire time they knew of each other 2) was the ex of her very best friend, who was the first person she came out to and accepted her whole heartedly , 3) broke said best friend's heart pretty badly (whether or not he told her or knew all the details himself) 4) she has a crush on Vickie who has shown interest in return. Nancy isn't a prize for a male character's growth, but Robin isn't a prize for a female character's growth either! Even if Steve only wanted her to be happy would support that happiness even if it was with his ex, Robin herself wouldn't go for it as she's far too wrapped up in Steve. A lot of r//nance hc etc ignore this part. That Robin loved Steve first, and that a fundamental part of her is this love between them. Idk I feel like they just. Make it all about Nancy and not about Nancy AND Robin...(often argued that a man does not belong in a relationship between two women but. Steve is Nancy's ex and Robin's best friend. He's already THERE. Pretending he doesn't exist doesn't make for a solid characterization of either of them)

Also Your tags "also me gives of homophobic if a girl liked her vibes"....yeah. do agree. I'm sure she'd tell herself and everyone that she isn't and that she supports equal rights and all that. But if she saw two boys holding hands her face would pinch and she'd look away or two girls kissing look down and speed up her walking. She wouldn't be overt but she gives off vibes that she'd say "haha okay Robin...you're not into me though, right?" when Robin is telling her she's dating Vickie. (If Robin ever told her). Very much "I support you but I don't want to see it"

YES YES YES HOLY SHIT you absolutely hit every single point of why i hate that ship so much!!

i just don’t understand the obsession with smushing the two main women on the show together when 1.) vicky (and for fics, fuckin chrissy!!! hello?????) is right there and 2.) robin deserves better!!! someone who doesn’t roll their eyes at her in disdain when she rambles or gives her that stupid fake eye squinty smile!!!!

and look i’m sorry but nancy was clearly jealous of robin and steve’s relationship because she can’t stand not being the only woman steve loves!!! you all can deny it ALL you want but it’s so goddamn obvious

she’s not jealous becaus she’s into robin she’s bitter because to her it looks like steve is moving on!!!

and i maintain that’s why she was flirting so heavy with him and giving him those damn eyes!! be in denial all you want, call steve weird and creepy for his six nuggets dream all you want, but nancy was ALLLLL UP in his koolaid!!!! she was leading him on!!!!!

in conclusion,

‼️ROBIN DESERVES BETTER‼️

[shipcestuous]

If people are looking for a good, incestuous webcomic about Greek Mythology, I can't recommend Theia Mania by A-gnosis enough. It's kind of an anthology series, with different stories about different gods, but it's currently in it's Hymn to Demeter arc, so right now there's a lot of focus on the Hades/Persephone relationship going on.

I love it because it's very well-thought-out and well researched, and the author's love for Ancient Greek literature, and history shines through every page. Plus, in it the gods are a big, messy family where everyone's flawed but (while I do have my preferences and it's easy for me to like/sympathize with some characters but not others) no one is a complete monster or a one-dimensional caricature of a villain. There is some incest-negative talk here and there, granted, but I feel it's always very justified by who's saying what and in which circumstances.

At one point, Athena fears (though that's not actually what's happening) that Zeus is going to try and come onto her because... well, I don't want to spoil it because I think the way the author went about the whole "Zeus ate Metis and then Athena came out of his head" thing is really interesting. But anyway, to me that moment feels like it's more about "I thought we were becoming close because you genuinely cared about me as a person and a family member, but now I think you might just you see me as a way to get my mom back, like I don't matter and only she does" or even "I thought you really respected me and cared about me in the platonic way I care about you, but now I suspect for you I might just be another woman to seduce and either discard or keep as a dirty little secret," plus Athena is asexual in a culture where she doesn't really have any tools or resources to help her understand what that means, so at times she's just generally uncomfortable with the way most other gods seem (from her perspective) to be constantly going on about sex and doing crazy, stupid things to get it.

Later on, Persephone is also outraged and upset with Zeus for seducing her and says that's just proof of how fucked-up their family really is... but, again trying not to spoil anything, Zeus deceived her by hiding his identity, thus taking away from her the choice of having sex with *him* or not, and then he kept disrespecting her autonomy and her ability to make her own decisions even while putting her in a very, very tough spot. Which is clearly something that has overall a bigger impact on Persephone than just the idea of having had sex with her dad.

And that's it, really, at least from what I remember. So, in conclusion, the problem is not incest so much as... Zeus.

... okay, no, that was just a joke. XD Zeus does have his good sides, too, and it's not like he's completely incapable of caring about other people, in the end. But the problem is not incest so much as men who treat women like objects, lie to them and hide things from them then expect their trust anyway, think that just because women are open about liking sex or otherwise "not respectable" in some way then they should also be "available" to them specifically, or otherwise disrespect their right to make their own decisions. Which is a point I think the entire comics makes really well, as it doesn't shy away from the problems that come with being a woman in an historical setting like this while at the same time also having plenty of nuanced, flawed female characters who never feel like they're supposed to be perfect little victims just there to show how tragic their suffering is and never have a moment of happiness or fun.

And honestly, I think that's part of what makes A-gnosis' version of Hades/Persephone just so good and engaging. They're uncle and niece, but Persephone isn't uncomfortable with that (unlike with the whole thing with Zeus) because she gets along really well with Hades, they get each other and also each other's perspectives on life, and they respect each other both when it comes to sex (which is also an interesting element on its own, as Persephone is allosexual with a high libido and generally just loves doing it, and feeling sexy, too, while Hades is demisexual and has struggled with understanding what that means to him while feeling like the odd one out among his siblings) and other things. Hades abducts her to take her as his wife after asking permission from Zeus but not her and Demeter, but he doesn't actually want to force her into anything and has a hidden motivation that he discloses right away to Persephone because it involves something that's happening to her that they have previously discussed and they're both worried about, but she's also rightfully angry at him for a bit and bluntly points out to him that he could have tried to find a better way to bring her to the Underworld and work on the problem without other people sticking their noses in their business. They have their own problems but they work through them as two people who care for and are coming to love each other, and on top of that they have very compatible personalities and even sense of humor, and it's so good to see!

Also, he's a grumpy nerd who usually gets along better with the dead (whom he's actually fiercely protective of and cares a great deal about) than the living (who he often doesn't understand, leading him to act dismissive, overly strict, or unapproachable towards them, and who don't usually offer him much understanding and compassion in return) and she's a loner with a noncomformist streak and a punk vibes. Which is an interpretation I'd never really seen before (well, not punk loner Persephone, at least) but now I'm in love with it!

Uh, and also, have you ever wished for an Hades/Persephone romance that treats Demeter as a good mother who dearly loves her daughter instead of an harpy who purposefully keeps her isolated and naive and prevents her from spreading her wings for her own gain? Well, Theia Mania's Demeter is amazing. The comic doesn't go to the opposite extreme of making her the Perfect Mom whose only personality trait is being a mother, either (if I had a nickel for every time I've seen anti Hades/Persephone people clamoring for that while somehow thinking themselves so much more progressive than the Demeter bashers... let's just say, I'd have way more than just two nickels, lol!) and so she ends up as one of the most sympathetic characters in it. She has issues and flaws and she's traumatized (and not just by the Poseidon thing I mentioned above) and, as much as she loves her, she doesn't always really get her daughter, but she's never just an annoying obstacle on the road to Hades/Persephone realizing they want to stay together, she has her own story going on that obviously intersects with theirs but is very much about her. And I just want her to clear up all the misunderstandings between her and Persephone, hopefully reconcile with Hades (she's not okay with him right now both because of his recent actions and because of something else that happened between them in the past), and be happy with her girlfriend (and I mean that in the canonical sense, btw) Hekate!

Sorry for the rant but Theia Mania is the best modern adaptation of Greek Mythology I've read in a while, and I couldn't help but spread the love!!

... er, Theia Mania anon, here again! Just realized I accidentally erase da line in my ask and forgot to rewrite it before sending! I wanted to say there's also a flashback Poseidon/Demeter thing that could maybe also be interpreted as incest-negative, as he... well, let's just say he really doesn't care about her consent, and leave it at that. She understandably feels very violated by this, but because there was a certain chemistry between them at the time and *he* interpreted it as romantic/sexual, he claims she was leading him on/only saying no out loud to protect her honor as an unmarried woman while "really" she wanted him to go on. But again, the point there is not that they're brother and sister, even if personally I got the vibe she *only* saw him as a brother she got along very well with. The point is still that he shouldn't have just taken what he wanted, he should have actually treated her as an equal and respected her wishes, without making up excuses about "what women do" and "what women really think." So, yeah, that's what I was referencing in my comment about Demeter!

How exciting to have something well written to enjoy! I love the sound of all of the nuanced characters and the complicated relationships.

Thanks so much for this detailed rec.

[bloomfish]

My controversial and long-winded Willow/Tara thoughts

I honestly don't mind, narratively speaking, that Tara was killed. Obviously I love Tara with all my heart and was devastated when she died but I keep trying to see another way forward for Willow's arc and... I can't? Honestly I think this would have been Oz's fate had he not been written off because Seth Green had to leave.

I also think that nowadays we're very conscious of the "bury your gays" trope and there's obviously a lot to criticise about this when it's gratuitous. But especially given what Willow and Tara represented at the time... It was a different world in terms of LGBT representation. It's common knowledge that they had to fight for the onscreen kiss in The Body, the fact that a main character was even portrayed in a lesbian relationship at all on a show like Buffy was groundbreaking. All that being said, I personally don't think Tara's death was gratuitous.

The only other permadeath of a Scooby love interest until the finale is Jenny Calendar, and you can definitely make a case here for the "killing off a female love interest for manpain" trope but where would S2 be without Jenny's death? Like it just doesn't make sense without it. Passions is the moment where the stakes of the series as a whole suddenly explode into astronomical new levels. Sure, Giles could have been a woman and Jenny a man, but that also undercuts many of the themes and ideas behind the Giles+Buffy relationship and the Watchers in general.

Similarly, from the moment Willow's use of magic was introduced, EVERYTHING in her arc was leading up to Dark Willow. We got a taste of it in S5 but if the show had ended there it would never have actually reached a true conclusion. She's not punished for her Dark Moment, she's rewarded. It would have gone unresolved, and the looming threat of Willow turning to the dark side would have been hanging over the heads of the surviving Scoobies forever. Tara being mind sucked by Glory feels like a sort of... idk hasty first attempt at killing her thematically (an idea that was obviously in the works) except that her death in S5 would undercut those of Joyce and Buffy. So it's natural to resolve this in S6.

The reason I think Tara had to die for Dark Willow to emerge is that we're shown that Willow needs a grounding presence to keep her from losing control. Her 'darkest moments' almost all occur when she feels abandoned. When Oz cheats on her in S4 she tries to curse him and Veronica, when he leaves Something Blue ensues. When Tara is mind-sucked she goes apeshit on Glory. When Buffy dies she does the resurrection spell. When she and Tara fight in S6 she uses magic to make her forget, the subsequent breakup causes her to spiral. Like this is a HUGE pattern for Willow.

Oz and Tara function fairly similarly in that they are stabilising presences that pull Willow back from the brink, and so nothing short of the complete, permanent removal of Tara could force her to completely go over the edge. She couldn't have "just left" because that leaves the glimmer of hope that, like Oz, she will return. She had to die and Willow had to try and fail to bring her back.

Obviously it's not a pleasant thing. But it's just... Idk, it's narratively cohesive for me. It's so far from being even close to the worst moral failing of the writers in that single episode, let alone the series as a whole. The reason it stings so much is because Tara's death wasn't just shock value, she was a character that made a lasting impact on the show and had visible effects on characters outside of Willow (mostly Dawn and Buffy but still) so even though she was doomed from the start I don't think it's a case of a lesbian character being gratuitously killed off for angst. I get that it's a touchy subject but I also don't think it's accurate to paint every single instance of a gay character dying as 'bury your gays' when it's not necessarily so.

Anyway. There's a lot to criticise about Buffy but this isn't a personal gripe of mine- even as someone for whom Tara and her relationship with Willow was deeply and personally important at the time.

[acourtofthought]

I came to a realization/prediction/hope this weekend which I feel the need to share with you.

I think there’s going to be a moment in the Elucien book when Elain is going to hurt Lucien, badly. Idk if it will be telling him about Azriel or something else, but I think Lucien is going to tell her he needs time.

I think it will be obvious how hurt he is, and Elain is going to feel terribly about it. Whether or not she comes to this conclusion herself or someone else will remind her (Vassa? Jurian? Eris? An entirely new character?) I don’t know, but she’s going to remember that when she needed time, Lucien gave it to her. So, she’s going to need to swallow her wants (& maybe pride) to give him that same courtesy in return. And in doing so, she’ll gain a new appreciation for him, and his character.

I believe this will be after they’ve built a banter, hell maybe even after they’ve already kissed and been quite intimate. Something which truly makes her scared that she might loose him for good, and forces her to face that deep seated fear of rejection. A similarity between herself and her mate, but something she’s previously avoided and now can’t.

Obviously, I think they will end up together. I think Elain will let Lucien come back to her, and when he does, force him to hear her apology (because he never gets the apologies he’s deserved, and can be too forgiving, somewhat to his detriment.) And, I think this will be the foundation of her protectiveness of him. Not that she wouldn’t have been be before this situation, but that now she’d have a newfound fire in facing anyone who came for him. A loyalty and fierceness equally matched by her mate.

Anyways, I just wanted to share and ask what you think!

🧼💖

NTSSM!!!! I wouldn't be surprised if we already had that happen in SF. That scene where Cassian says, "Where's Elain?" and Lucien responds (voice dripping with discomfort), "I am not always in this city to see my mate" then he later goes on to look at her with longing on Solstice but the whole thing with Az happens. I'm not sure how much Lucien is aware of what nearly went down that night but he must have sensed something in the last year. I imagine he's gotten to the point, regardless of how much he longs for her, where he's frustrated with the situation, where he is hurt with the situation. And I think the start of their book will be with him fed up with her actions and where we maybe see a little bit of a temper from him. Where he's kind of given up on the idea of there being hope for them. Though I'm not sure I see them having progression in their book only for him to be hurt by her and him telling her he needs more time (at least not in a major way) because that halts the story overall. If Elain and Lucien's arc involves them traveling to Spring, the human lands, the continent, etc., they're going to be forced to interact for that fact alone and I don't see either Elain or Lucien being the one to hold a grudge during that time. I also don't see Lucien being so hurt that he would shut her out for any reason. Normally mated males would rather sacrifice their own happiness than cause distress to the female. Though maybe it would be something along the lines of what we saw with Feyre and Rhys, when she lashed out after their visit to the CON or Nesta and Cassian after he said he didn't have a choice in being shackled to her and she called in their bargain. Both Rhys and Cassian were hurt by some things their mate said and though both pairings need a few days to clear their minds, it didn't make the guys question wanting to be together. With her endgame pairings, she usually has the FMC apologize for her past behaviors but she doesn't have the male typically push her aware for anything. I do think though, when Elain finally lets go of her stubbornness in regards to the bond and she gives that big apology to Lucien for her behavior the last two years, that's when we'll really see the protectiveness you mentioned come into play.

[greatwyrmgold]

I love many serial stories, but I'm developing a distaste for serial storytelling.

If you follow me, you've probably figured out that I like both reading and writing media analysis, whether it's essays about the characterization of a web serial's supporting cast or discussing the themes of Shonen Jump manga.

It's pretty easy to read and analyze media that is "complete," a word which here means "the author has written the conclusion". The conclusion is an important part of any story! It's the part where everything built up in the early parts of the story is brought together and assembled into its final form. Every setup has either been paid off or revealed to be a red herring. The puzzle is complete, we can see the picture, we can confidently interpret its meaning.

Analyzing serial media is trickier. You don't have all the pieces; you have to look at what's available, guess what might be missing, and interpret the meaning there might be in the end. This has some consequences.

Sometimes, stuff that you assumed would be explained later isn't. I remember a post I made after Chainsaw Man chapter 137 (which I can't find because Tumblr's search function is terrible) that speculated on why all those people would be mindlessly attacking Denji. It's weird! This isn't the sort of thing that just happens in Chainsaw Man, not without some devil or whatever doing something weird. Controlling people, or making puppets, or at least putting a bounty on Denji's head.

I assumed there would be some kind of explanation in later chapters. And I waited, and kept reading. Months later, I realized that there never really was an explanation. In chapter 138, Yoshida mentioned that it's natural for people to attack Chainsaw Man when they know his identity, and that was it.

Sometimes, stuff that you assume indicates a pattern later isn't. Back in My Hero Academia's sports festival arc, a bunch of spectators flip out when Bakugo beats up Ochaco, and Aizawa goes on a rant about how ridiculous their reaction is. They see a cute girl in a tournament arc and assume she's just a weakling who's being victimized by the big strong bully, and Aizawa won't stand for that. Sure, Bakugo beat her, but only because he recognized her as a threat. To quote Red Sarcasticproductions (2019):

My Hero Academia takes no prisoners when it comes to trope subversion. Man, I hope it stays good.

Foreshadowing is a literary device—

Anyways, it's 2024 and Ochaco has mostly been sidelined. Some time during season three, she and Iida were sidelined in favor of Izuku's new guy friends, Todoroki and Bakugo. Ochaco's only significant contribution in the climactic arc is her catfight with depraved bisexual Toga Himiko, which is its own can of worms.

Luckily, Kohei Horikoshi introduced a bunch of new lady characters with Quirks that can keep pace with the series's power creep. Unfortunately, pretty much all of them are killed, crippled, or otherwise sidelined after getting one cool moment. To be clear, new male characters are also introduced in this time, and while some get killed shortly after their introduction, they don't consistently fall into the same introduction—>action scene—>adios pattern as the women, and that pattern isn't the only pattern which makes the female characters look worse.

My Hero Academia went from being a series notable for vocally supporting its female characters, to a series notable for its mediocre treatment thereof.

And then there's Ward, which isn't a manga at all, despite what some people will claim. (It doesn't even have pictures!) In its last arc, there was some discourse which is difficult to describe without spoiling stuff, so...

There was this plan to solve The Problem. The audience saw a detailed explanation of, and spends chapters watching characters discuss the ramifications of the plan. Vibes in the community are rancid; the superheroes in that story are kinda allegories for people with PTSD and stuff, and the story thus far has drawn a pretty clear connection between "heroic sacrifices" and suicidal tendencies, and the plan seems kinda like a mass "heroic sacrifice"...

Well, it turns out that there was an important detail of the plan which the characters were keeping from the audience. I have strong opinions about why hiding that detail was a bad idea, but it was made so much worse by the serial nature of the story. If Ward was published as one 15-pound book, the time between finding out about the plan and finding out about the twist would be measured in days, if not hours.

But those chapters came out two a week, over the course of months, leaving us fans plenty of time to stew over the implications of that partial puzzle. People who read Ward later don't always like the ending, but they don't dislike it anywhere near as much as people like me who read it chapter by chapter.

And if you wanted another manga example instead of web serials, basically the same thing is going on with Aqua and Ruby's relationship in Oshi no Ko. Unless that's more like Chainsaw Man's "there is no explanation" or MHA's "you only THOUGHT we were handling this well"—it's impossible to say what's going on for certain, and that sucks!

I don't want to say that serial stories punish you for trying to understand them before they're finished; that kind of speculation can be rewarding. (And of course, some stories could not exist without serial publication.) But it can also suck.

It sucks when an explanation you're waiting for never comes. It sucks when a story you thought was good at heart slowly loses its credibility. It sucks when a pacing decision turns an okay writing decision into weeks of agonizing confusion.

[singofsolace]

What were your thoughts on the last couple of TL episodes? It’s starting to look like Tedbecca was a collective delusion after all, lol. If that is indeed the case, what would you like to see as a conclusion to Rebecca’s arc? I can’t picture her ending up alone, romantically; normally I’d be all for it, subverting expectations and all, but so much of her story so far has hinged on her longing for a wholesome romantic love to settle down and start a family with, that I’m afraid her ending up alone wouldn’t be empowering but just straight up sad. And if it’s not Ted, who do you think it could be so that it’s still a somewhat satisfying endgame? I’d be ok with Sam, tbh. At least that’d be infinitely better than the Dutch man or some other random, last-minute addition.

If I'm being completely honest, the reason I haven't shared my thoughts on the last few episodes is because I have some pretty strong negative feelings about the writing, and I didn't want to put those feelings in the "Ted Lasso" tag and wind up getting hate, but tagging spoilers is necessary/required... so I was in a bit of a conundrum.

My biggest complaint is that I don't understand where this season is going. This season feels like it's incredibly scattered and all over the place--and if any new elements get added now in the last three episodes (even ones I've been longing to see since Episode 1), it's all going to feel incredibly rushed.

What it comes down to is that Ted and Rebecca are supposed to be the lead characters in this show, but lately (especially in these last two episodes about Keeley and Colin) it feels like they're barely even supporting characters. They don't have story arcs of their own within each episode, which is incredibly frustrating, because why would they sideline their main characters this late in the final season? No matter how much I love the large supporting cast, and think those actors deserve their time to shine, these supporting-character-centric episodes are making me feel like this can't possibly be the final season, because if this is "it" for Ted and Rebecca's stories, I feel incredibly cheated by the writers.

Rebecca hasn't had her own storyline, where she isn't just reacting to what other characters are doing, since "Sunflowers." How is that possible? In my MFA creative writing program, you would get your piece of writing torn to fucking shreds if your lead female character had no agency in the story and was simply reacting to other characters. Rebecca Welton is meant to be an active presence in this story, effecting change and driving the story forward; why on earth has she been relegated to someone who is only in the episode to give advice and pep talks to the other characters (sometimes shouted advice, but advice nonetheless)?

I'm also still trying to figure out why they introduced the idea that Rebecca is/was actively trying to have a baby, even going so far as to get tests done at a fertility clinic, only to immediately drop that thread after revealing her infertility...? As if finding out the news had no lasting impact on her whatsoever, and she immediately gave up trying to have a family, even though there are so many other avenues she could've explored...? I trust that they haven't forgotten about that storyline, and will most likely try to tie up that loose end by the final episode, but immediately abandoning that storyline after introducing it in order to focus the show on supporting characters makes me feel like Rebecca's storyline is no longer the one that is driving the narrative of the show, which is a huge change, and one I don't particularly like.

As for the question about who would make a satisfying endgame for Rebecca, I'm firmly a Rebecca x Happiness person, so whatever will make her happy, I could find a way to justify. I personally have reservations about Rebecca/Sam, but the show itself doesn't seem to share those reservations. But I think the fact that Sam's father doesn't like Rebecca speaks volumes, because I'm sure Sam was kind when describing what happened between them, so his dad taking that information badly is validating to me. And if Dutch Boatman comes back, I'd be pissed, because the "did we? oh yes we did," still bothers me, even though I'm well-aware that the writers didn't intend for that to imply an assault happened. There are so many other ways they could've written that line, and that storyline in general, and I'm just frustrated that it made it to the screen the way it did.

I think that what is actually going to happen is that we'll see a classic rom-com airport scene where Rebecca asks Ted to stay instead of going back to Kansas, and the show will end right there, a bit ambiguously, with Ted and Rebecca decidedly not together yet, but with the possibility of that "Ted, please, stay," meaning something more. I'm almost positive that's what's going to happen, because that sets up more seasons if they want to do them, but also lets them "off the hook" if more seasons don't happen, because the ending would be a classic one that audiences recognize as an "end" even in its ambiguity.

[emeyuko]

i have been playing persona 5 royal

the game itself is great but the writting is definitely not my thing and in a lot of cases it's poorly done overall so imma put my complains:

-Ann's sexualization is weird but if they all wanted to go with her wanting to feel "sexy" then make the joke fanservice scenes stuff where she's actually giving consent, making jokes of putting her in embarrasing situations she DOESNT want to be in is extremely awful since she's an SA victim

-Joker taking the advantange of older women and then procced to getting groomed for the sake of waifubaiting is very meh considering they literally were critizing Komoshida's creppy ass at the beggining (even if he was indeed 10 times worse, It would never be Kawakami's entire social link okay, Kawakami's herself constanly says how this is NOT okay)

-Kasumi/Sumire was extremely dissapointing, her character conclusion doesn't make sense and the plot could perfectly happends whitout her, she just pretty much exists to be Joker's"ultimate" girlfriend and honestly, she should have been a femc, made royal had a femc instead, an elegante sporty woman that takes very seriously her role as the pt leader, remplace the anime cutscenes with 3d specially bc they look less old now, give what a lot of fans were waiting for in the trailer when it came out, her persona and pt outfit could still be the same and it wouldn't feel out of place c'mon!

-Treat👏Ryuji👏 decently

-Makoto should have been a confidant instead of a phantom thief

-Maruki's arc had potential specially if you interpret it as "the struggles and the thing you were fighting for at the first place is what makes you a person" but it turned out pretty dissapointing imo, the "bad" ending doesn't have any important consequences and the only fully interesting thing for me were Akechi and Joker's interactions

-Haru should have been Okomura's employee, not his daughter, why the actual fuck are you critizing a capitalism fuck and the main character from the arc is a perfect rich girl with daddy issues that fits just fine in society and could take the advantange of capitalism as well

-the game started with Komoshida, one of the villians that had made me feel one of the biggest disgust i got towards a fictional character's actions in all of fiction, to characters i am unable to take seriously, the most decent is probably Shido and even so, it was a big letdown

-i don't like most of the female social links

[caatws]

The fact that we all have to say "I think" before so many comments about Gamora instead of being able to say "I know", is the problem. We don't know enough about what took place for Gamora between Endgame and vol 3.

Most of what we do get told about Gamora is contradictory. Some people saying she's not dead, someone saying she is dead to them and a couple who have no clue or nothing to say at all. Then you have Gamora finally understanding groot which seemed to show a change in her relationship to the guardians until James Gunn's real family comment which made everything even more confusing.

objectively vol 3 has two problems. It's treated as being an entirely contained story and Rocket's arc takes up too much space. Gunn wrote vol 3 as if Infinity War and Endgame didn't happen and it just doesn't work. You can't ignore the crossover event that reshaped many of the characters, killed one of the leads and altered relationships. There's no way to watch vol 1, 2 and 3 back to back and understand what's going on. Gamora's entire arc is written as if she forgot who the guardians were and found a new life that everyone has to accept and it's ridiculous. You can't bypass that she was murdered and doing that makes light of the kind of abuse she suffered. Meanwhile Rocket is a great character and his arc was important but it shouldn't have been more important than everyone else getting much needed attention. For better or for worse Gamora's death needed to be a priority once they let Thanos murder her. You can't have an entire movie preach abuse is wrong, using people for your own selfish needs is wrong, ending people's lives whenever it suits you is wrong and then not talk about the elephant in the room that is your female lead went through all of this. The other non Rocket characters also could have used more time spent getting to the conclusion of their arcs. For example Peter and Mantis as siblings didn't amount to much of anything and there should have been more exploration of what it had been like for Mantis to hold that secret for so long. Groot didn't even get an arc or much characterization. He still had his prior experiences being part of his role tho and a connection to everyone so at least he has that working better for him than poor Gamora. Also I'm probably the only one who cares but I wanted there to be more discussion of Peter saying Rocket's the captain because IW had Rocket poking fun at Peter's leadership and in general I think there were times of him not really taking Quill having authority seriously.

mhmmmm to all of this

[narhinafan]

When the average anime watcher hears that Sakura has fans they laugh at the very ridiculousness even those outside of the Naruto fandom knows Sakura is trash. The idea that she's the most popular female character is ridiculous considering how much hate she has gotten consistently from those within the fandom and outside the fandom. Characters like Hinata have gotten more popular with time hell Ino the whooping girl back in the day is getting more love than Sakura is these days. In all honesty she's just a self insert that's all she feels like which would make sense why she's popular with certain sections of the fandom.

Sakura always had people dislike her but that had gotten worse since the series had ended because of her fans. I didn't realize myself how awful the character was until I started revising the manga for the first time and I came to a realization that Sakura's character is so worthless she could be replaced easily and the story would basically stay the same. Sasuke's character Arc doesn't need Sakura to exist for his character Arc to have a conclusion like Hinata is needed for Naruto for his character Arc to have a conclusion. Sakura is useless because she serves no narrative purposes.

True Sakura has always been disliked and it only worse as the series went on and her cult like fans didn't help anything either. I feel a lot of people don't realise how bad she when they first got into Naruto cause many of them were kids who didn't put that much thought in the detail only when they reread or watch the series later realise how bad Sakura is.

[ravenkinnie]

I also relate more to Ken more than I do with barbie and its so crazy to me that its this way and kind of annoying too bcs for a movie that is meant to be for women yet again its also another movie where the writing for the male character feels more solid and put together than the female character.

like barbie's character is ok at the most part. like she has a goal and a motivation and her own character evolution but smthg ab her just doesnt click?

I agree, men just had the most developed and complete storyline, probably because they chose to make his arc basically the whole plot so it had to resolve. barbie gets kind of lost in that plot from like halfway point of the movie and then arrives at conclusion that makes no sense and comes from nothing - WHY would she want to return to real world, we had no indication of her strong feelings towards it except like one tiny moment an hour ago??

it's like there's a big gap from the set up of her character to the conclusion of it - gloria and sasha are also characters that have the same problem, they are set up and then reach a conclusion for their arc (sasha saving barbieland for her mom and gloria being like I'm weird and dark and that's okay like we have seen exactly zero indication that that's a part of her character apart from like buzzfeed edgy drawings where barbie has cellulite).

tbh I think they should have either kicked or minimised the mid feminist message plot and focused on the relationships between sasha and gloria and barbie, make gloria's designs and imagination something barbie can see and feel emotional connection to but also something she doesn't see HERSELF in - which shouldn't matter because she's barbie, a projection of what little girls want her to be but it doesn't feel right to her. then it would both make so much more sense that she wants to be human because she wants to be someone who creates and not just is the thing being created. it's also still a plot that keeps the themes of women choosing who they want to be and celebrating little girls' imagination as well as conveying the message that america ferrera says in that one interview about how women are expected to drop things that are just frivolous fun but men get to keep them

(a message that funnily enough all the barbies uphold because what they like is serious and cool and they are all Cool Girl Competent while what kens like is stupid and ugly and ruins the vibe. which is also something women can connect to more lmao like bitch I do care about zack snyders cut of justice league actually)

but the truth is that saying you can play with anything as long as you have imagination isn't a message that sells things and this is mostly a movie meant to sell dolls. when you want to both say and sell things all that's coming out of your mouth are marketing slogans and they will never be more than whatever phrase makes you want to spend money

also it has chronic greta gerwig responding to discourse disease, like they really spent 100 million to respond to tweets criticising barbie and that was literally not necessary at all because despite what gerwig says you really CAN'T do the thing and subvert the thing, one excludes the other and when you try to do both you end up unable to say anything that leans into either idea - and this movie proves it because in the end it doesn't do anything

also my flat is tiny and I only have a minifridge so when ken was talking about how minifridges suck I FELT that shit, the freezer space is literally NOTHING I miss having frozen vegetables SO MUCH

[green5quirrel]

I dunno but I may be off-base in this bit of drivel but I feel like of all supernatural themed shows Grimm feels more...domestic?

Like, at the beginning of the series we have Nick (planning on) proposing to a woman, right? And this woman doesn't suddenly die to move the story forward. This relationship might not have lasted but Nick has fought for it (poorly) for most of the series up until season 4-ish.

All of the characters seem to be in times of their life where they are past running around without an aim. They are fully realized characters. They aren't on a mission. They aren't necessarily lost. Nick is a career detective. His partner has had several wives (we are led to believe) but is fully identified to himself.

MONROE for Cribbage's Sake, MONROE is a fully realized character. He may be in for some serious growth, but he has already lived a life of settling into his identity and knowing what he wants. And when Rosalee comes in she is strong because she has also fought and won over her struggles and is at home in who she is.

The only characters that are coming into the show at the beginning of their identity arc are (in my perspective) Adalind and Trubel. Renard MAYBE...but he sort of wishy-washes through the entire series towards whatever identity serves him the most at the time.

To compare:

Supernatural starts out with two dudes in their twenties(?). One of whom has just seen their girlfriend explode into flames on their ceiling. And the other has lost their dad and the issues wrapped up in that are enough to prevent a man from doing, well, anything else in his life. They are constantly on the run. "Love" is a joke. Literally at times. Even at the end their development into adulthood and identity seems irreparably arrested. It's a good show, but there are differences. Buffy is placed in a high school. Nobody knows who they are. I mean, I think this one speaks for itself. Characters do become more realized but it also seems like a lot of the basic building blocks of identity and growth have been completely missed. They aren't settled characters. Once Upon A Time is literally a town of characters who don't know who they are. All of their life seems like a façade. Even though the characters are older, like Grimm there is an incompleteness that the show actually thrives on.

I could go on. Like I really could. I could compare other shows, but suffice to say I just think the reason why Grimm vibes with me (especially now as a 40-something) is because the characters know themselves BEFORE they're put into this fantastical environment. And they are always striving to keep connections with each other in a very mature-ish way. (sans Nick and Juliette's entire story arc...I hate you writers) The importance they are motivated to fulfill comes from a different place than often younger protagonists in similar shows.

And to the OP's point, Psyche is a show whose crux is comedy and is draws from the main protagonist to provide that fulfillment. Character motivation leans toward making the protagonist seem more goofy or less goofy depending on the mood the creators want to give the episode. They're pivoting on a comedic element. So, with some disappointment, it makes sense that a strong female lead would not be utilized to the full potential of the character but, rather, as a measure of balance to the main character. Shawn's personality is to step over and in front of. It's his defense and coping mechanism. And it does set the beat of the show, in a lot of ways.

IN CONCLUSION, I think there are a lot of good reasons why Rosalee was allowed to be a strong female character consistently in Grimm. The writers let her have had a full life experience that she could take with her. They gave both her and Monroe a balance for the other so that they could stand in the spotlight equally. They gave her individual thoughts and feelings and ideas that didn't necessarily agree with what either the audience (or Monroe) thought was best. But they did so without making her a villain and while still giving her an ally in Monroe. (I'm thinking specifically of the Grausen episode.) And she was able to embody all of this because Grimm was written with characters that were fully realized. Thank you for coming to my Teddy Bear Talk. Please enjoy complimentary lollipops and sparkling water. Have a nice night!

I think that Rosalee might have knocked Juliet O'Hara from Psych down from my favorite female tv character. They are really similar in that they're both really gentle and caring but capable of protecting the ones they love at any cost. They're both really smart and confident. But Juliet gets smothered under Shawn's (and everyone else's) personality a lot, which I don't fault her for, she's a subtle character surrounded by very big personalities. The way that Rosalee meshes so well with the other characters is really nice. The cast really feels like a big family by the end. I can imagine all 5 kids end up having 6 parents plus big sister Trubel raising them and I really like that dynamic.

[hamliet]

Watching/listening to the RWBY Volume 8 commentary (something I recommend doing for all volumes btw), when they came to the episode with Cinder's backstory they explained their intention as making us "kinda feel bad for Cinder, but not completely sympathize" with her. So contrary to what the "male authority figures bad, angry evil females actually good" crowd believes, I'm starting to think a Cinder redemption arc has more or less been thrown out the window.

I disagree with your conclusion, but I do agree that the sentiment does highlight what I see as an example of misreading among the fandom.

For why I disagree, I have a rule: never ever ever ever take creator commentary without a shaker of salt. No creator is going to give away secret future twists in a statement, and sometimes they outright lie. See for example Horikoshi Kohei once saying that Shigaraki couldn't be redeemed, when he is now being redeemed. Creators trying to explain their works face an impossible task and often contradict themselves, because we use stories to explore complex ideas a lot of the time. To quote Dostoyevsky:

“Don't let us forget that the causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them.”

But this principle aside, I think you're missing context. The context of the Volume 8 commentary is, well, Volume 8. Cinder seemed to be on a precipice here and made choices that led to her spiraling further into villainy. Of course you want to set up sympathy, but you're not going to have the audience screaming for her redemption right before she makes a horrible choice (or series of horrible choices). That's not a great writing choice.

Sympathy for a character must matter; to quote a Jenny Nicholson, the worst thing a work can do is make fans feel stupid for caring in the first place. If they are asking us to care about Cinder, even if not excuse her, I very much think that's in line with redemption.

However, I also have been saying over and over that I do not think Cinder will survive her redemption, and this quote kinda reinforces that to me (with grains of salt!)

I've talked about this at length before, but just to reiterate: I'm not against redemptive death even if it is one of my least favorite tropes; the reason it's a least-favorite trope and gets pushback lately is because it's become not only over-used but cheapened (as in, the set up is not specifically for this, and the writer is clearly just taking an emotional punch and avoiding answering other difficult questions like what if they survived?). I don't think this will be the case with Cinder. I'm not opposed to her surviving; the set up currently though, what with Cinder having a major role in the two major tragedies so far (both with her killing girls who are associated with red, just like Cinder is) doesn't look good. Plus, I think the set up is for Emerald and Mercury to survive their redemptions, and hence those pesky forgiveness questions will not necessarily be avoided.

But! As I said earlier, I do think your ask highlights the fandom issue. I think RWBY is the Twilight Zone of fandoms: I've never seen a fandom have such double-standards for male characters. Every other fandom, the female characters are the ones that get the double standards. And I know there is a subset of dudebros on YouTube and Rebbit (probably?) who probably still embody this, and are still licking their fragile toxic masculinity after RWBY deconstructed it and the girls in heels and short skirts sometimes are ending up with other girls instead of them.

This fandom, though... I'm sometimes baffled by how Mercury is treated in comparison to Cinder. Like, I know he has less development, but his backstory is such a punch, and every time he appears on screen his conflict is built up, that I am sometimes stunned that the woobifying is placed on Cinder and not on him--and like, by all means woobify both, but sometimes I see analyses that literally pit Emerald + Cinder against Mercury as Redeemable vs Irredeemable, and that is just textually wrong. Merc's the one who has the extreme wooby backstory and is likely to end up friends with RWBY+JNOR. He has the set up to survive redemption. He's clearly an abused child still being abused. Like, he's Cinder trapped with the Madame, wherein his Madame is Tyrian and Salem, and he has no Rhodes. I do not like this. I do not like this at all.

Like, Mercury gets called out on smiling after Beacon's destruction as an example of how he's truly sadistic while people handwave Cinder's murder of Pyrrha--which was fully unnecessary, by the way, because Pyrrha was already defeated. Cinder just killed her because she wanted to kill her for... reasons. I'm not saying write texts on how Cinder is the worst or anything; I love her and think she's going to ultimately be the one who saves everyone, but my goodness, be intellectually honest with yourselves.

Anyways. I do think the fandom has issues, though honestly those issues are probably reactionary and caused by legit pain (how female and queer characters are treated in 99% fandoms). But that doesn't make these reactionary takes textually supported or fair, or even not uncomfortable in their real world subtext (male abuse victims... do face obstacles in having their pain recognized).