#the eclipse discourse

[semantic-vegas]

The Eclipse ep. 11 -- *must* I have so many feelings?

Ok. I have never done anything on this godforsaken site beyond reblogging, but my thoughts have been going back and forth since Friday and maybe writing it down will make me stop thinking about it??

It feels like people are removing nuance from the issue of the variety of responses to Thua’s actions in ep. 11. Can we understand Thua’s motivations and feel that he was entirely justified? Yes! Can we understand Thua’s motivations and still feel upset? Also yes! Is it necessary to tell people that they’re watching it wrong or thinking about it wrong if they either *are* or *aren’t* upset? I certainly don’t think so. It’s not really something you can be right about in the first place. 

I think that’s what’s bothering me the most (maybe I’m being way too dramatic about tumblr discourse, but it feels like it’s reflecting the very issue that the show is trying to address: You don’t get to decide what’s right for everyone), but I also just want to explore my *own* feelings about this week’s episode.

Absolute mess below the cut. 

I disagree with a lot of the takes about this episode, which ..essentially means nothing. This is a   t e l e v i s i o n   (web, whatever) show. Everyone is allowed to have their own interpretations and feelings, and no one’s are more or less valid. None of the characters are perfect. They aren’t supposed to be. That’s what makes the show so good. A lot of people have eloquently expressed the “true evil” of this show being the system etc. etc., so I won’t go into it.

I say all that to say that I’m trying to unpack why I feel so strongly about this episode and the “twist”. This is what this post is. Not judgment or character assassination. Just trying to figure out why I reacted differently to this than other parts of the series where somewhat similar ~unsavory~ things were done by our beloveds.

SO. Thua. 

I just saw a few posts that people being upset about Thua outing Akk and Aye is hypocritical/unwarranted, since Aye blackmailed Akk with the cheek kiss picture and told Thua’s own mom more about him and his struggles than Thua consented to. (Note that I don’t have the energy to go back and watch that scene, so ... I’m just talking out of my ass about it, maybe?)

Again, valid interpretation that I’m not discrediting... it’s just that I don’t personally think they’re anywhere near the same thing. I think intention and audience are important things to consider here (though in the end I’m NOT saying simply having good intentions make outing and/or blackmail correct PLS).

When Aye spoke to Thua’s mother, it came from a place of seeing him struggling and wanting to find a way to help. Was it overstepping a boundary and crossing a line? Yeah, sure. Did Thua have every right to be upset about it even if having it out in the open brought some relief? Of course. I didn’t see much discourse about it at the time, but I think we can all agree that even if it wasn’t the best move, Aye was genuinely trying to help. And the conversation took place in a safe space -- a cafe full of queer people and allies.

The “blackmail” thing. I don’t think this even really needs to be discussed. Does anyone actually think Aye would have posted that photo?? We can say that it was an insensitive way to tease/urge Akk into doing what he wanted, but that’s literally their entire relationship. Aye pushes. Akk yields (and is arguably much better for it). The bigger issue to me was the lack of consent for the kiss, but that’s another thing. At its base, this was Aye and Akk doing Aye and Akk things in a car alone together in the parking lot of the Gay Café. 

(Again, maybe I’m doing too much work to “justify” these two events, but also again, this is just how I feel about them. I’m not really wanting to psychoanalyze myself here)

Ok, so. The big scene.

I think the two factors I brought up earlier -- intention and audience -- are part of why this scene was so upsetting to me and thus maybe hard for me to be super objective about.

Do I think Thua was justified in finally snapping after being forced to endure merciless bullying and the other assorted horrors of Suppalo? Damn right. Do I think he was right to bring Aye’s lack of impartiality to light? Sure.

Do I think the outing was necessary or justified? NO. First of all, this was in front of the entire school, which is so very obviously the opposite of a safe space. Thua himself knows how hostile and homophobic the administration and many of the students are.

Second of all, I think it’s pretty evident in Louis’ acting that the outing brought him some sense of schadenfreude. He had a smirk on his face. Imo (and as he later said), he was so angry at Aye and Akk for “covering for each other” that he wanted to hurt them. It was an act of revenge before it was an act of providing evidence of a compromised party.

As other people have pointed out, it was super messed up of him to steal Aye’s dead uncle’s journal to try to get between Aye and Akk... and then go beyond that and read it?? 

And then go beyond *that* and up the ante on the curse? And then shout about how Akk and Aye don’t get to use their love to justify their mistakes.. while conveniently forgetting to own up to any of his own actions? I guess I don’t feel like Aye forcing Thua into a half-assed, explanation-free confession and then Thua offering himself up for punishment (that one can assume would be much less publicized) remedies that. 

I also find his words during that “confession/explanation” scene confusing. Akk asks something like “Why have you changed?” and Thua replies (this is a direct quote from the ENG subs) “I think I just feel ashamed seeing younger students make such sacrifices and then be threatened. I think every change requires sacrifice. If my bad action could change anything at all, it was worth it.”

But his bad actions specifically made things so much worse for the younger students???? Thua was responsible for the banner, the account, and the doll. Arguably, his actions were more mentally traumatizing for The World Remembers than having an errant flower pot fall next to them or having red paint flung on their posters (again, not excusing any of that OR the literal Truck oh my God Akk even if it was idling it could’ve seriously hurt someone).

So that doesn’t feel like a satisfactory explanation. 

I guess at the end of the day, I feel so upset because Thua had more pieces of the puzzle than anyone else -- he knew about Aye’s uncle, Akk’s actions, Teacher Chadok’s wrongs, when the curse started, etc. etc. -- and he chose to do *that* about it.

Instead of talking to The World Remembers members and bringing them in on the plan and offering them a way to fight back, he used them just like everyone else did. And hurt them much more in the process.

Instead of confronting Aye (whose actions made it clear he genuinely cares for and respects Thua) with his knowledge of Akk being the curse, he assumed that they were covering for each other and let spite and jealousy fuel him. If he had just talked to Aye, he would’ve found out that Aye wasn’t going to let Akk weasel out of facing concequences (we all know he’d been pushing him to tell the truth for weeks) – in the moment, he was just trying to avoid Akk’s entire mental state being shattered in front of the whole school.

I guess that’s what makes the whole thing feel so tragic for all the characters. If they had just communicated and confided in each other, they could have all worked together. Something something people feeling alone facing oppressive systems and choosing to try to survive alone instead of coming together to fight... 

So yeah. Again, I love that Thua’s character finally had enough. I love that he was allowed to break out of the goody-two-shoes mold and scream and yell and fight. I love that he was allowed to make that mistake. It’s obviously realistic to just say things to hurt people when you’re angry. I think it makes the show more interesting, and obviously that scene had a huge response regardless of people’s positions on it.

But I do think people are allowed to be upset. I’m upset.

He had *so* much time (planning the next moves of the curse, observing Aye and Akk, deciding how to target Chadok) to rethink his choices, and he just kept doubling down. Again, realistic. Again, upsetting.

And I think the reason people are even *more* upset is because there was no resolution to that blatant shit move of his. I know a ton of people have brought it up, but the fact that we didn’t get to hear an *actual* full explanation of his actions, that no one yelled at him because of the outing specifically, that we didn’t get to see them all fall apart again together and end up with stronger friendships because of it..... bull. 

Ik some people feel as though the point was that everyone let go of their hurt with the whole truth out in the open... but I think that’s a cop-out tbh. And I love the sweet moments as much as everyone else, but for the story this show is telling, I think we really needed that scene, and ik they could’ve done so much with it.

TL;DR: I feel so upset at Thua because it feels like he had a more complete picture than everyone else and simply used that insight to make everything worse. The audience needed more closure than cutting to a scene where everyone was making a BL together.. as much as I feel like watching BL “fixes” some of my issues. I wish they would’ve given us an extra episode with those cute scenes and actually addressed what needed to be addressed in this one.

Wow. Not sure if I feel better, but this is more than I’ve written recreationally in over 2 years, so.. go me?

[forkaround]

What I need people to realize is there shouldn't be an either-or in BLs to begin with. It's not either Kinnporsche level high heat problematic content or 2gether level inoffensiveness. It's not either Moonlight Chicken honesty or BL Alt reality where being gay is okay. It's not either GMMTV softness or MAME level angst. It's not either SOTUS level bad jokes or Cutie Pie level political correctness.

One would think that shows about people on a spectrum would have an audience that understands the concept of spectrums and evidently I would be wrong.

Liking one over the other doesn't make you a better, right-er person.

What is significant and important is that this content gets made. Pre mid 2010s there wasn't any such content, anywhere! So chill the fuck out and enjoy what you enjoy and let others enjoy what they enjoy even if it is completely different.

[alexandraisyes]

“The VAs wouldn’t joke about incest”

And like wow are we watching the same show? They’ve made so many incest jokes about Sun and Moon for the past however many years it’s been. Two and a half. Y’all are just forgetful fr.

Also this is not meant to be hateful towards anyone (especially not the shadowplanet shippers) but let’s not be delusional guys. They have and they probably will again because dark humor is hilarious.

However also eclipse and earth are not related please stop trying to make them related. Eclipse is a copy of a copy of a person made from code that belonged to someone from another dimension and Earth’s only connection to Sun and Moon is that they have the same creator. Eclipse isn’t related to anyone no matter HOW hard you squint or how you label family for the show (which you should just accept how it works in canon and not worry about “code relations” bc that’s not canon).

[starays13]

Finding your blog and the first thing we see is that disgusting flag around Eclipse. Gross. Way to be homophobic. Eclipse is implied canon gay, boo

Omg I’ve gotten popular enough that these guys found me? I’m almost flattered! /hj

This is funny though. First tag on that post was “This is a headcanon”

And people are allowed to have hcs, silly anon. Not sure where you think it was implied he was canonically gay though?? Did we watch the same show?

Are you proud of yourself? Do you think in 10 years you’re going to look back on these posts harassing aspec people for making content about non-romantic things in a little fandom about silly robots and think “Wow, I sure did show them!” ?

Get a grip.

[wen-kexing-apologist]

*clasps your face tenderly in my hands, and whispers in your ear*

Listen, I do not care if The Eclipse episodes of Our Skyy 2 are just 45 minutes of Akk and Ayan doing the chicken dance, all I want, all I am asking for is for my son, Akk, to be able to have some unrestrained, summer fun. I want that boy smiling, I want that boy flirting with his boyfriend, I want that boy to get to be a goddamn teenager. If Akk is happy, I am happy. Am I making myself clear?

*Kisses your forehead and disappears in a cloud of smoke*

[thefreeblog]

I think the "wife" discourse is because this has been used in a lot of BL dramas already and it is kind of is heteronormative if you think of it. There is no need to bring up wife word which is typically used for females in a all boy relationship.

Anon, this is one way of looking at it.

Let me make it clear, I DO object when a third person makes assumptions or outright asks a gay couple who is the husband or who wears the pants in the relationship. It's not anyone's business but theirs. So it does become heteronormative when someone outside of the couple does it. But when the couple use it themselves and either or both are okay with it, it's different.

For ex. The bit where Rain from LITA actually enjoys being called P'Payu's wife.

Vs Where in Bad Buddy Pran shuts it down when Pat tries to say it. And Pat corrects his mistake.

Both are fine because the couple is talking about it and coming to an agreement.

Now what we saw in The Eclipse was more of a teasing tactic by Ayan to get Akk being open about it. I myself have seen people struggling with internalised homophobia, it's not pretty. So getting some one to ease into queer language and stuff is a challenging task. It may require various tactics, and I saw it as one of that.

I would also like to comment on a different aspect of it. I am an queer Asian living in West. I have seen more of this kind of language in Asian queer couples than is White or western queer community. Hence you see this in a lot of Asian BL dramas but not Western BLs. The roots lie in the languages and cultures. A lot of Asian cultures relate care, softness, gentleness with the feminine side. And it's not in derogatory sense. Most Asians culture actually put the feminine form on pedestal and worship the female side of the nature in different types of goddesses, which you don't see in West at all. So when you say wife or a mother it automatically assumed that it is a good thing. The notion that wife word is demeaning has actually come from the West. It's very common in Asian friend groups to have a common wife or a mother, it's the person in the group who is most caring or gentle irrespective of their gender. Wife material is one common phrase used in Asian youths to identify a friend who is caring gentle etc etc.

So these are some cultural nuisances you would not understand unless and until you have been part of those cultures.

If you ask me everyone should be open to different languages and cultures and their every day things which are different from the so called standard western notions. It could be a learning curve for everyone.

[coastxlwaters]

Got asked this by a friend:

Why do i talk abt my QPR ships like they are actual ships? And tag it like they are?

First of all, they are technically still ships. Secondly, i was called out a while back (maybe a year ago?) that QPR relationships are not any less than actual love and should be treated like that, again i was young and dumb and didnt know that so now i try to tag my stuff correctly. Third, ive seen multiple ship art that can be seen as QPR yet non-shippers still do not want to see it. I would like to respect their boundaries.

Extra notes: All of my ships are QPR except for Solar x ruin(jigsaw) but even for those two there is NO 18+ THINGS i am a MINOR (suggestive jokes are fine i kinda find them funny at times)

So yes, (Solstice) Dark sun x Eclipse is QPR so if u do make art for the aus that have that ship pls do not show them kissing- (yes i have had sm ask if they would kiss, not any anon or moot, an irl friend)

[queersouthasian]

These people are really getting comfortable with calling queer women mostly consuming mlm media and queer men mostly consuming wlw media fetisizers, huh?

[candycannibal]

am i the only person who straight up hates mlpfim season 2 episode luna eclipsed like. it falls so flat with the messaging of it. of course luna is upset about the holiday mocking her and wants to change it. of course she's confused and upset that everyone still hates her.

it's just. wow. it's so poorly written and it sucks. pinky admitting that she isn't even afraid of luna but it's "fun to be scared" and so she riles everyone up and pretends to be scared of luna and runs away. like how did this make it through test audiences or whatever the hell they do because that is the exact same way that i and i'm sure a lot of other kids were bullied (and also some of the kids who watched the show at the time of it's release were being bullied)

it literally turns pinky into a bully? the whole episode is more focused on how everyone else feels and how luna isn't being a good sport that people are screaming and running away from her even though she's trying so hard. even adding in a scene where pinky apologizes to luna for roping luna into a joke where she's the punchline would have saved the episode in my opinion, but pinky never faces any consequences for her actions- which are, again, bullying someone

i'm not dissing the characters themselves here, this is really about the writers. like it feels like they had a good opportunity to do something with this episode and just fumbled the whole thing. it's so mean spirited and backwards to me. luna getting in on the joke in the end is fine, but it would have been even better if she'd gotten an apology and the ability to express her hurt feelings to more than just twilight.

it makes sense that some ponies are legitimately afraid of luna, they, their parents, their grand parents, their great grandparents ect ect ect grew up with stories about her being the literal boogyman and some of them didnt even think she was real anymore and then she shows up- that's going to be scary! but the elements of harmony should have a better understanding of her, not just twilight. they all saw luna turn into her filly form and cry in her sister's arms! (hooves?)

i'm not saying it's a bad premise for an episode but there are five million other ways that it could have been written that didn't amount to "when people are mocking you and screaming and pretending you're trying to eat them it's your fault for not getting in on the joke"

idk man. the whole thing is so out of character

[delightingintragedy]

guys..... you know you can still give offerings to your deities on a solar eclipse, right? you can pray and worship. like... paganism isnt witchcraft. its spells and magic people are saying go wrong, not religious worship.

[technowings]

Just scrolling thru the new vid to see if there was a new body reveal...

Nexus:( words words) surveillance of the family (words)

Moon: they're not your family

WOW

WOW

OK

Nexus: (more words) they're reeeallly gonna hate the new me

Moon: how is the new you worse than the old you

WOW

How's the view from that highest of horses there OMoon?

Edit: NO ONE TOLD LUNAR THEY MOVED?????

[forkaround]

Nothing against the girlies but for once I would like to see guys gushing over the lead's romance. and not side character guys, one off guest character type guys. Guys deserve to gush over romance too.

[waitmyturtles]

I want to offer a few follow-up thoughts (long post), as promised as I process process process, on the whole Thua situation in episode 11 of The Eclipse. I am especially inspired by the excellent discourse on this topic by @respectthepetty on a number of points: 1) that Akk may have had his outing coming to him as he was essentially a bully as a prefect, and 2) that Aye had also outed or threatened to out others, and us viewers either didn’t even notice (whoops, me) and/or forgave him much more easily than Thua. @respectthepetty in the comments of one of their posts also writes that in outing Akk, that Thua was actually following the rules/practices of the way Aye had done his outings, and that nothing is black and white here, which are both very excellent points. I’ll get to the black and whiteness, or lack thereof, this whole plot sitch in a sec. 

(I also very much appreciate the lovely @lelephantsnail‘s reblog tag of my last Eclipse post about Thua’s Machiavellian side, which I can totally see. Thua Apologists Club, ha!)

So I’m still holding anger towards Thua, and the discourse on Thua is forcing me to understand why I’m feeling this way (and y’all know I lurve when a drama does this to me). And I think I am understanding why I’m twisted in a knot in confusion as I process the arguments that support Thua:

I think Thua’s accusations and revelations against Akk, and THEN his revelations that he continued the curse, were out of order for me. I think it’s literally the flow in which these things were written and revealed that are messing me up.

If I had found out FIRST that Thua had done the banner and the burning -- we then would have been led to ask, WHY. “WHY did you do that, Thua?”

And THEN, Thua could have said: “well, the dudes that were continuing the curse -- Akk and Namo -- fell off the train. And there was more truth that needed to be revealed. I feel for the young protestors. I did things that scared them, but didn’t physically hurt them. I needed to get to this moment where we could confront Chadok, because my stepdad gave me a significant clue about that POS. And I’m angry that I knew about Akk doing the more dangerous shit, and Aye helping to cover for him. All y’all need to admit y’all fucked up, and me too.”

IF that order had been established, then I think Thua and his actions, as written, would have come off as more legitimate. Instead, I unfortunately think that the way in which Thua FIRST reveals all of the stuff about Akk, in front of a potentially homophobic and dangerous audience of schoolboys, WITHOUT ALSO revealing his role in front of that same audience, and holding back those extra curse details until he was safe with just his homies -- to me, it seemed to make Thua out to be a little sniveling revenge guy. 

I just unfortunately think this wrongheaded writing set-up has led to Thua getting so much hate from the Eclipse lovers on the tag. But again, I TOTALLY SEE the points that the pro-Thua supporters are making. Because you guys are right, too. It wasn’t fair for Aye to out Thua. @respectthepetty, to another point you made in the comments -- Thua absolutely has anger. He’s angry because he lost his dad, he’s angry because his stepdad is a punk, he’s angry because his friends are also punks, hiding their bad shit, covering for each other, and he’s aching because of what the protestors are going through because he’s a good guy on the inside, and can’t stand that all this punking is leaving the protestors vulnerable.

But, ultimately, I think the writers punked Thua. I think the pro-Thua audience is picking up on everything that gets Thua upright in his morality in these moments. But the writers let his character down with this out-of-order reveal situation, and he ends up looking a little weenie because of it (completely 100% in my humble opinion). I’m bummed, because I think there could have been potential for a much stronger display of awesomeness from him. 

Finally, @respectthepetty notes in the comments of the second post I linked that some folks on the tag are saying that outing isn’t right in any situation. I definitely admit that I completely blanked on the moment that Aye outed Thua to Thua’s mom (I do remember cringing, but I didn’t identify it as an outing moment specifically). You also note that nothing is black and white in this show.

I just want to emphasize and support this, because while I’m criticizing the writers for the way in which *I think* they punked Thua, that at the same time, these characters are REALLY COMPLICATED. Before I read your comment about black and white, I had definitely processed (while washing dishes, ha) that each character is very deeply nuanced. The aspects of commentary about depression and anxiety vis à vis each of the characters is different, and how they manage their survival of Suppalo is different. 

I think it was @bengiyo that also said in the comments that folks on the tag that are critical of the Thua storyline are expecting linearly fluffy BL storylines, and that The Eclipse is far more complicated than just being linear to a happy ending. I want to say again that while I’m critical of the writing regarding Thua in this post, that I SO AGREE that this script is holding heavy and complicated weight. And I think that’s why we’re all loving the show so so much. It’s holding a lot. Aye, especially, is an all-over-the-place character with a lot of nuance to him. Akk joins those ranks, Thua joins those ranks. For my sake, Thua got ran over a bit by the need from the writers to pace faster to end the series, but I have really appreciated being confronted with diverse discourse that supports Thua outside of my original wtf feeling towards him. 

WHEW! Much much much respect to the pro-Thua supporters out there, y’all made me THINK AND PROCESS A LOT! <3

[bittyfromquotev]

Is it bad that I wish Solar didn’t exist? Maybe then people wouldn’t have gotten so attached to the idea of SolarMoon/Nexus. And he’s one of my favorites, for crying out loud!

It’s a valid opinion. It might not have happened, but then maybe people would’ve been obsessed with either Moon x Monty or Moon x Eclipse.

Idk man ;-;

[bisexualwintermoon]

“obi-wan was the best father the twins had” does bail organa mean nothing to you????

[vaugarde]

hm kinda want to make a sideblog for wc bitching bc im locked out and all i have are my phone w under 30% battery and the apprentice’s quest and indont want to subject my normal followers to my inevitable whining but also thats sorta what eclipseclan is for and thats on hiatus