#that said i'm always happy to give both academic and fictional book recs on the subject if anyone wants them

[incorrect-koh-posts]

Your knowledge of medieval stuff is really impressive! You said in the tags of that ask you answered that you majored in literature? I would love to hear more about your passion for medieval literature and just medieval times in general. Did it start with Kingdom of Heaven or were you interested in it long before watching the film?

Ahh, I'm glad you think so, thank you! ☺️

I did my BA with a major in German literature and linguistics and a minor in English lit. For my MA (which I'm almost finished with save for my thesis defence), I switched to English full-time. My interest in medieval literature is really something that came with my studies - I've always had a general interest in history and read lots of historical fiction while in school, but I'd had basically no exposure to medieval texts (or the knowledge to engage somewhat meaningfully with them) until I had to take my first compulsory "Introduction to Medieval Literature" class at uni. From then on, I just kind of fell in love with the subject. We had a great prof - a really cool older lady who gave the most engaging lectures and with whom I later took seminars on topics like the medieval idea of monsters or animal depictions in chivalric romance.

Within all things medieval, the area that perhaps fascinates me the most is medievalism studies, which is a sort of sub-discipline of medieval studies that investigates, broadly speaking, the reception and depiction of the Middle Ages as well as medieval texts and topics in post-medieval media. Idk why it had to be that field in particular, but there's just something so beautiful in finding parallels and continuities between our world and the medieval one, especially since misconceptions about the Middle Ages are still so prevalent. Unsurprisingly, I wrote both of my dissertations on such medieval/modern overlaps: In my BA thesis I looked into the portrayal and function of mentor-mentee relationships in medieval literature and modern adolescent fiction (lots of commonalities there, interestingly enough!), whereas in my MA diss I focused on the construction of dystopian scenarios in recent British Arthurian fiction and how these respond not only to the older Arthurian material but also to present-day environmental and political anxieties. (Sounds a bit complicated but it makes sense, I promise.)

Perhaps this is why KoH has had such a chokehold on me these past 4 years. It's such a flawed piece of media that it makes me want to dig my teeth into it, in an academic as well as a fic-writing sense. There are so many moments in it that could be right out of a chivalric romance, yet also so many others where the film blows its pretence to historicity to all hell; there are so many interesting characters who only scratch at the surface of the historical figures behind them, and simply so much wasted potential. It's just ... ahhh.

The funny thing is that my growing interest in medieval literature kind of coincided with me discovering KoH, which in turn made me dig even deeper into the research side of things (a vicious circle lol). I think I wrote another post on this about a year ago, but me discovering - or rather re-discovering - Kingdom of Heaven was basically the result of the following chain reaction: I somehow stumbled upon an old novel covering the same events as KoH (Graham Shelby's The Knights of Dark Renown) > something in that book's depiction of Raymond of Tripoli scratched my brain in the right place > I investigated further and found KoH > I saw that skrunkly Mr Irons was part of the cast and decided I had to watch it immediately. In such matters I'm a simple girl - nothing will incite me to watch a film more than an old history man being hot 😂

And then half-way through the film I remembered I'd actually seen it before - with my former best friend during the early years of secondary school when she was obsessed (and by that I mean obsessed) with Orlando Bloom and made me watch literally every film with him that she could get her hands on. Which was a good thing only insofar as it made me discover Lord of the Rings. Though in hindsight it's very funny because she clearly intended for me to join her in her Orlando insanity, whereas confused 11-year-old me instead stared at Aragorn and Tiberias like this: 😳. Yes, I've always had impeccable taste, obviously.

And thus, in the spring of the year of our Lord 2020, I entered my KoH era, and so far the brainrot is still thriving.

I do wonder, though, how many people in the fandom have a similar background? The handful of people that I know or have interacted with seem to skew that way, with mostly history- or literature-related fields of study, but I wonder how representative they are of the overall fandom 🤔

In any case, thank you for the fun ask that did not flatter me at all!

[olderthannetfic]

hi hi history-non again, sorry I know it's a very

ahem wide and girthy ahem

ask, and i'm sorry for not narrowing it down farther my brain is smooth as butter and the dart board, so to speak, is. big. i feel like im throwing my dart in the ocean of 'what i don't know' and trying to spear a fish who might speak to me like the queer elder i never ha d ;lkasjd;flkas damn you small conservative town ANYWAYS

i guess okay maybe do you have any favourite figureheads? whats your fave pieces of lgbtqa+ media (like books or shows?)

thanks again and sorry for.

uh.

big.

--

Lolololol. Yes.... it’s so... big...

In the 90s, the writers of nonfiction who I found really inspirational were Susie Bright and Kate Bornstein. My Gender Workbook was a classic. I gather there’s a new edition.

I was a massive, massive nerd, so my actual favorite queer book as a 14-year-old is one that will be a bit... uh... much if you’re not feeling very intellectual. It’s Third Sex, Third Gender: Beyond Sexual Dimorphism in Culture and History. This thing is a massive doorstop of a book that collects academic journal articles on third gender roles from various cultures. I was obsessed with this thing. Again, it’s academic journal articles, not popular nonfiction, so expect that level of impenetrable prose.

I was also a giant weeb, so I read a bunch of books on the history of gay sex in Japan. It’s pretty interesting how much people assume the “m/m sex = sin” shit was worldwide and how much it just was not.

In terms of fiction, I’ve always struggled to find f/f media I relate to. I really like the tv adaptations of Fingersmith and Tipping the Velvet. Lots of fucked up problematicness and gorgeous visuals. Gotta love the lady with the strap-on and the gold body paint!

For other queer media, I was a big fan of Velvet Goldmine and of Pedro Almodóvar’s older films, which are full of every problematic kink you can think of. They also have a lot of het I like, like the lady being coerced into sex (that she enjoys) by the drag queen who impersonates her famous mother she has a lot of mommy issues about... except said drag queen is really an undercover police officer. Just... whut. (All the “straight” stuff in Almodóvar’s films is also bugfuck nuts and often kind of queer.)

I really, really, really loved Crash. Not the shitty one that won an oscar: the car crash perverts one full of weird UST. There’s a ton of straight sex in this too, along with every gender combo and a laundry list of upsetting kinks. It’s just every kind of weird perv thing. (”Weird art film full of sex and problematicness” is pretty much the defining feature of movies I liked as a teen. I loved Kissed, that het necrophilia movie too.)

Stage Beauty is probably my favorite film for bi vibes. It’s this meditation on identity as the English stage was changing over from having men play women to having actual actresses. It ends in f/m, but it’s definitely a very queer film.

If you want slice of life stuff, I guess you could try Dykes to Watch Out For (the comic that’s the source of the bechdel test) or the Tales of the City novel series. These will both give you a sense of what was going on in certain queer communities in the late 20thC. If you want something relatively fluffy, Maurice is a historical costume drama with a happy ending. I found it awfully slow as a college student, but it does have naked Rupert Graves (Lestrade from Sherlock), so...

----

See, this is hard to answer because I came of age and did all of my reading of that kind a long time ago. I pretty quickly moved on to fangirl media, which I have always liked a lot better than other arguably queer stuff. Back in the 90s, that meant Japanese stuff and fic. Later, I had access to more flavors of by-fujoshi-for-fujoshi media.

So my actual favorite m/m books are a bunch of “m/m romance” (i.e. American BL being sold as ebooks on amazon). If you want live action TV and fandomy vibes, you’re better off with Trapped (hot cop/mobster action!) or one of those Thai series about schoolboys or something than stuff made by cis gay men in the US.

I also came of age in an era when “queer” media was very Cis Gay Men And Sometimes Cis Lesbians with an occasional nod to bi people existing... maybe. Kate Bornstein and a few others were raising the profile of MtF transsexuals (the term in use at the time) who wanted surgery or even, gasp, maybe didn’t want bottom surgery in some cases. Anything about FtMs or nb/agender/etc. identities was practically invisible. I saw the term ‘genderqueer’ around a bit, but it was mostly in contexts that were very tryhard and unappealing to me.

(You haven’t given any details, but I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you’re like much of tumblr and the flavors of queerness you relate to aren’t so much the Cis Gay Men Only culture that makes up quite a bit of queer history and older queer media.)

I can tell you what I liked as a teen, but not everybody is into fucked up art films that may not have happy endings. I can try to rec things about queer culture in the 90s, but I probably don’t have great recs for way earlier or later than that... unless it’s so much earlier that I’ve researched it while writing fic of some historical canon or other. A lot of how I learned about queer culture myself was from magazines or from reading soc.bi on usenet or just from living through the 90s--not typically from books that are easy to unearth and just hand to someone now.

I tend to just not like anything in the contemporary romance or slice of life genres, regardless of gender and orientation, so while I’ve watched/read a bit more queer stuff like this, especially in the past when I had less access to queer media, it’s not a space I’m great at reccing in. And that’s unfortunate because a lot of that type of art gives you a better sense of what other queer people were like in other eras and/or it’s a safer rec than some bananas crazy BDSM film.

I was, and am, very kinky (though pretty lazy in terms of actual practice), so a lot of my reading and media interest was bound up in that also. Obviously, I was quite interested in the drawings of Tom of Finland or the photography of Robert Mapplethorpe, but are you going to be into photos of some guy shoving a whip handle in his ass? I love the movie Cruising... it’s about serial killers and leather and homophobia and is every bit as potentially traumatizing as that sounds.

I feel you on the problem of finding queer elders. There isn’t really an obvious way to go about this.