#stop saying he only murders because of his poor self esteem and love of justice

[chestnutroan]

Who is Ben? Have you talked about this character before?

Ben is my sole survivor, and my longest standing oc. I’ve posted a LOT of art of him but I’ve always put off talking about him at length but now I’m out of the rough when it comes to having the will to do anything, ill talk about him!

Frank (Benjamin) Romara was born in 2044 in Arkansas to African/Italian parents. When he was 13, he, his parents and his younger brother Gene were uprooted to Boston under absolutely no single good reason given at the time from his father. His dad died probably not a year later, and combined with the massive change of life Ben’s education went down the shitter, and he had to repeat freshman year. At the end of what should have been his sophomore year he got put in a program for “at risk youth”. 

[Detail about him, about Nick Valentine and Fallout Lore etc under the cut!]

The program was basically about increasing the amount of people entering government related jobs, because due to rising contempt less and less people were going down that path, and that’s bad for a whole lot of reasons, for the government at least. When it was first conceived of, it was more of a support scheme for kids not going onto greater things, but it expanded to where it was mandatory for any teen that met the requirements to be put through the system and spat out with more allegiance to their country. Ben checked off a lot of boxes, being poor, having bad grades etc. And at first Ben didn’t really mind all that much, given his lack of direction it was comforting to know that he’d be able to find a stable job to support his family, and that was exactly what seemed to be promised to him. He hadn’t yet gained a fervent desire to see the government crumble, the only part of it he hated being cops, who brushed his dads murder off like it didn’t matter. plus, the program offered extensive healthcare (a leftover enticement from when the program was optional), and it looked like the only way he’d be able to transition.

It wasn’t long, however, before it became increasingly apparent how insidious the program really was. For one thing, he was to be put into work (or training for whatever he will be assigned) at 18, meaning he’d have to leave high school with a sophomore level education. This was, of course, by design to keep the kids entering the workforce in that same workforce. When he was 17, he took a GOAT and got given two options: enter the police force or the US army. He didn't want to do absolutely either, but he picked the former, just because it seemed like his only shot to stay with his family. By the time he was 21, he’d become a detective, and before he could ever start to work on his own soil he was transferred to Chicago due to lack of workforce there.

And all over again, he’d been plucked out of what he knew and dunked somewhere else, and worse yet, he doesn’t even have anyone he knows to help him go through it. Most of the people at his station don’t really want anything to do with him, but he gets on with his job (his efficacy depending on whether or not he thinks hes doing the right thing), and quickly becomes the new hotshot ass hole there for his attention to detail, if not his actual ability to decipher motivations and piece things together. And this caught the attention of Nick Valentine.

Nick was the original hotshot ass  hole ofc, and it was owed to this that Ben, despite being to be shown the ropes, that he didn’t partner with the new guy despite being the only person there who could have helped him out. Nick was very, very good at his job, and due to his insecurities he wasn’t about to stop being the best and give people the chance to realise he doesn't get better than how effective he is at his work. I won’t get into the root of his insecurities, but he genuinely believes that he would lose all respect and that if he ever stopped being a try hard people would lose all reason to bother with him at all, and all he wants is for others reach out and be a friend to him. hes dealing with a lot of the same loneliness Ben is, but so long as he doesn't lose the facade of being a fully functional adult with a good job and a ‘loving’ wife he wont have to introspect and face who he thinks he is deep down (i.e. a man incapable of loving his wife romantically because of some personality fault he cant comprehend of how to fix as opposed to him just being gay and having a lot of internalised homophobia).

It takes Ben and Nick both reaching the point where they snap under the weight of the world they live in and the people who occupy it for them to come together. Nick ended up actually asking to take Ben on as a partner, and it took a lot of the load off of emotionally crippling work (serving a government neither of them believed in but being wholly incapable of escaping it, status quo being almost the only thing keeping them in place as opposed to trying to physically escape what they're doing together) but better yet, for nick, Ben helped bring out a side of him that wasn’t so afraid to be known by others, and he started opening up to other people at the same time as growing closer to him. (I think its important to like.not that nick doesn't wholly rely on Ben for all of his self esteem etc Ben is just a positive impact who gives him a space where nick can learn for himself that his worth doesn't depend on other peoples perception of him.) Nick realises that a lot of his negative perception/jealousy/etc of Ben when they first met was because he saw a lot of himself in him, Nick was in more or less him when he started some 5 or so years ago, and Nick helps Ben out in the way he wished someone had been there for him because he cares a hell of a lot about him and wants him to have the best chance at things.

And they grow into better people and just at the pique of things, where Nick is enjoying not being in an abusive relationship and staying with Ben while he gets back on his feet, Ben gets drafted and is trained at first to become a power armored foot soldier (standing at nearly 6′6″ he’d be a monument of fuck you to the enemy) but do to his deliberately bad aim with weapons, hes instead trained to pilot a vertibird, where hes then shipped off to anchorage. its there that he goes MIA after going against orders with his co pilot to provide medical assistance to a group of people stranded off from communication he spotted in flight earlier. Ben ended up glad later on that he and his co pilot were shot down, because for all 25 hours he was left dying in the snow, it meant that he didn't have to justify him going against orders by bringing back Chinese soldiers who’d end up a lot worse for wear than him. By the time his KIA status was revoked (they weren’t about to announce the miracle of his survival before they knew he’d survive lol) he’d already had a funeral, which Nick had attended, because I write like everything's a soap opera. but yeafksf him dying and attending his funeral left nick in a lot of grief, because he’d thought he’d have forever with Ben to go slow with him into being in a relationship and now Nick thought he’d never get that chance. and when they meet back up after it all when Ben returns it’s romantically charged to say the least.

Obviously I haven’t been sticking entirely to lore with this but the lore presented in fallout 4 is fucking bullshit so. i hesitate to call this a fix but i need to put in this disclaimer before i start spouting off. hey how about instead of nicks fiance getting iced jenny lands was actually his partner once he transferred to Boston to be with his husband to be, and she was cruelly twisted against her own intentions to try and kill nick because Eddie winter put her family in jeopardy and Eddie doing this was a coordinated attack towards them both that hes not just powerful enough to get revenge he can do it in such a way that they cant even trust the people around them. And nick got his mind juices squeezed or brain scanned whatever because of the resulting trauma of being shot by his best friend jenny. and also ‘Shaun’ is Ben and Nicks kid Max and upon learning later as a gen 2 that his son is the leader of a great source of trauma for nick hes forced to introspect in ways that have more tangible effects because his ability to decide who he is as a man ties into immediate problems  And nick doesn't have to focus on revenge disguised as justice because he has a responsibility to live in the here and now.

Thank you for this ask!! I hope that was coherent enough to understand kjdsf if you have any more questions about him or anything else I talked about I’d be flattered to hear them!

[viterbofangirllovestheuntamed]

i think robininthelaberynth is the person i saw suggest that the untamed is how wwx would like to remember the events of mdzs and that works for me too like i think as good at not dwelling and moving on as mdzs wwx is the second flautist would HURT and it's the sort of thing he might wish was true in a secret corner of his heart and then there's jiang cheng's face which i love but it would be kind of hilarious if in universe he only looks like that to wwx because he knows him so well and everyone else is but jin ling is just looking at minor variations on madame yu's sneer but yeah i really don't think the wwx of the untamed is lacking in complexity or moral ambiguity! he tortures (a lot of) people to death he makes a superweapon he can't control properly and is pretty cavalier about that he does a shit job balancing his obligations to his sect (i'm not talking jc and yanli i'm talking all the OTHER sect members he's also ditching and sticking with the murder bill while pretending that's nbd and they should just be chill) he's a real dick to a lot of people including people who love him! he's also kind and generous and extremely heroic and very traumatized and just a fundamentally loving person who wants the world to be better than it is he's trying so hard in an impossible situation and he's just a baby! and i have absolutely seen book only people declare that wwx has never done anything wrong in his life and not in the fun way i respect and cherish stop saying he only murders because of his poor self esteem and love of justice let him murder for low self esteem and justice but also rage and vengeance and a half articulated conviction that he might as well play judge jury and executioner because he's better qualified than JGS (via op)

You know what I just thought of? The Untamed might be how the story will be told in MDZS once a long time has gone by. Think about it: WWX didn't invent demonic cultivation but instead got the idea from more evil people, JGS and JGY were the root of all his image problems, there's evil magic metal that corrupts people rather than regular human nature - it's the perfect mostly sanitized propaganda piece with good guys and bad guys more neatly divided, which is what tends to happen to history.

I like this, but I admit that I personally fall into the camp of people that think there’s plenty of moral complexity in The Untamed. It definitely takes out or glosses over some of the darker stuff from the book, but both by virtue of its medium (visual storytelling with pretty broad acting) and because of a bunch of pretty deliberate adaptation choices The Untamed is also much more of an ensemble than MDZS, and I think giving other characters more time to establish their perspectives and motivations adds back in some of that complexity.  It goes out of its way to establish that the baseline of the cultivation world is violent and unjust and all our heroes are complicit in that (that archery scene! the general attitude towards blood feuds! Mingjue in his capacity as Mr. Righteous saying that it is basically impossible for the Jiangs to owe Wen Qing and Wen Ning anything in light of what their family did to his, and in fact kind of lowkey suggesting that acting otherwise is an unfilial dereliction of duty!).

Also, everyone is 300% less repressed and the question of how Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji feel about Wei Wuxian is not supposed to be much of a mystery. This doesn’t actually make the drama more complex, but it does give it yet more room to highlight the perspectives and motives of characters who are not Wei Wuxian, which I do think makes it harder to miss the complexity. We get stuff like The Untamed putting in the work to make sure the audience understands how we get from Jiang Cheng telling Zixun to shut up or put up in front of a war room full of the most important people in the cultivation world to Jiang Cheng saying “look I agree he shouldn’t have killed members of your clans but his heart was in the right place,” to Jiang Cheng at Nightless City, not taking the “fuck Wei Wuxian in perpetuity” vow but also very much not protesting when everyone else does. Is it spoonfeeding? Maybe, but it’s also delicious. Subtlety is dead to me I only want Wang Zhuocheng’s cryface.

That being said, these may just be things I’m particularly interested in and thus paying attention to? I’ve definitely seen meta from people who came away from both the show and the book under the impression that most conflicts were caused by people being too dumb or evil to handle Wei Wuxian’s awesomeness and equating “inconvenient to wangxian” with “bad,” and I’m going to be mean and say I think the problem is less with either work and more with their reading and viewing comprehension. I am very sympathetic to the pains of having your favourite elements of a book minimized or absent in an adaptation. Wei Wuxian is definitely a lighter shade of grey, considerably less repressed, and much less of an asshole in The Untamed, and Jiggy does get a hell of a villain edit (I think he’s plenty villainous in the book! but if I was a Jiggy apologist coming to The Untamed I’d be miffed). I get being annoyed about those changes! Just, you know, Wei Wuxian does still very much torture a lot of people to death for vengeance in a story that is in large part about the role vengeance plays in maintaining the cycle of violence.

[gatsbyjournal]

Literary lenses

Historical/Biographical Lens: 

From this lens, The Great Gatsby represents the hope for a future, and the American Dream feeling on the United States in the 1920’s, also the strong influence of the Jazz culture, being an important element on that period of time. Gatsby represents many of the experiences lived by Fitzgerald on his path to become successful, success for Gatsby and Fitzgerald was something very important, in order they could provide everything that was necessary for the girls they were in love with, understanding Daisy and Zelda represent an upper social class, with no limitations on their lifestyle. Also there is many elements they indicated on the Novel, that put us on that historical moment, such as the lifestyle in every social status, which were divided at that time, and even some strong racial opinions, as Tom Buchanan’s. Another important element from the historical lens of the novel, is the alcohol prohibition on the United States, Gatsby was identified as a “bootleggers”, an illegal producer and distributor of alcohol, which explain his early success and fast rise to his wealthy status.

Psychological Lens: 

The novel psychological lens is something very important, because the novel described the way every character evolve and change over the time, explaining their differences and ways to deal when facing different kind of situations. Nick, our narrator, is a character committed by not judging other people, but this also made him being involved in situations, where previous judgment would prevent him from having bad experiences.

Daisy Buchanan represent the oppressed and low self esteem, a character first commanded by Tom, and then by Gatsby, this is shown when Gatsby ask her to say that she had never love tome, but she really can't because Daisy’s character is a character that is usually dominated by other, reason that also explain why she had an affair with Gatsby after being married, she goes from being commanded form one person to another, and hardly taking decision on her own. 

Jordan Baker represents the hypocrisy, she is not taking strong decisions and always looking to fit good in any situation, wants to be friend on everyone, or at least being involved in everybody life. 

Tom buchanan is an abusive character, a bully. He is always doing what he wants no matter how it will affect others, as Daisy, and the way she explain her suffering over her marriage. His mistress Myrtle, is also a victim of his lies, manipulation and even fiscal violence.

Gatsby is a character who has overcome many situations to change his reality and move from his social reality, not only becoming wealthy, but improving his behaviour and education, defined as a the “substantiality of a man”. But this same behaviour and focus for reaching success, made him not quit on his radical ideal of love for Daisy, transforming from a passional love to an obsession, that would ruin all his success and eventually kill him.

It’s important to understand, the element of the narrator on this novel, would always put al the characters with some previous scope on their behaviour, even when Nick Carraway say that He is committed with making no opinions about other individuals, judgment can be presented at some point with the poster of Doctor T. J. Eckleburg, and how this eyes perceived some events, “I followed him over a low white-washed railroad fence and we walked back a hundred yards along the road under Doctor Eckleburg’s persistent stare”.  The eyes of Dr. Eckleburg are presented as witness of everything and everyone over the time. Understanding that our behaviour would be always observed.

Gender Lens. 

From a  gender perspective, we can see how woman are objects for man. Woman on this novel are not able to show their potential, they are shown as the company of a man, who successful or not, might provide everything they need. Woman at that time does not has as many rights and privileges in society as man had in that moment of history. Daisy and Myrtle, represent possessions for Tom, reason why he never respect or take in consideration his behaviour with them. Daisy and Myrtle are satisfied with many of there material needs, but not respected, treated as another object or another transaction. Even in the way Gatsby loves, making Daisy deny any feeling for Tom “She never loved you, do you hear?” he cried. “She only married you because I was poor and she was tired of waiting for me. It was a terrible mistake, but in her heart she never loved anyone except me!” The Great Gatsby, F Scott Fitzgerald, Gatsby defend his love from Daisy, but as soon she said her opinion, she is ignored, by Gatsby repeating over and over again that she must tells what he thinks is the reality. The idea of Daisy loving someone else while Gatsby was all that time in love with her, can not fit on his concept passion.

This is a novel that is clearly showing the position of the woman in the society as an accessory for a man life, for having fun a kids. When the novel is showing a  woman with a different behaviour, such as Jordan Baker, is described the representation of hypocrisy and selfish, by not being pulled for any man and having no particular interest more than her life. 

Socio-Economic Lens: 

Evaluating this novel from a socio-economic lens, offers to understand a variety of topics related, such as justice, power, greed, betrayal, social status, economic status, the American dream and so on. But as soon We understand how characters are described, the importance for this novel is the social stratification. Defining every social class, and lifestyle, but it can be simplified with the division of three Group, No money, Old Money and New money. 

The Old money represent the class with privilege and connections in the society, having a status not only made by their economic situation, but always by the time they have in this station and how this allowed them to have many different opportunities and connections, allowing them to do everything they want, some times being over the justice what would be applied to characters from other social groups. It’s important to say, that even when the Old Money and the New money can be similar, the main difference is explained with their behaviours, understanding this two groups live with similar possibilities but in different places of education, defined in their location in the city, West Egg and East Egg. Old Money individuals tend to be judgmental and superficial.

The New money represent individuals who have overcome their luck and made fortunes, but they lack of the behaviour pattern made by generations with money, and connections to legitimate their status, they could have the same resources as Old money, but act in a different, way, this can be represented by the parties hosted by Gatsby.

No money group, is mainly identified with description of the Valley of Ashes. No money group represent a group of people who mostly lack of hope and opportunities, even the name of the placed where they are mainly located, valley of ashes, made our imaginary of this group lack of colours, as they do with opportunities, resources or motivation. Their situations, made characters as Myrtle Wilson, to do things they wouldn’t accept just to get closer to the possibility of being out of their reality, being used by Tom Buchanan as a pleasure accessory. 

Another social classification of this novel, its a group represented by Nick Carraway, coming from a family with a bit of wealth, but not as much as Gatsby or Tom. It is important to understand this group, because nick represent the balance, not judging even when had more possibilities than others, and not being too suspicious about other success.

Archetypal Lens:

With the Archetypal lens we can identified each of them with the characters present on this novel. 

The hero is Gatsby, exhibit goodness and claim to be in the chase of a fair idea, it later becomes in an obsession having our hero to a fatal end. 

The innocent and youth, are demonstrated also with the way Nick does not make judgment about other, and with the description of a young Gatsby who never stop chasing his dream to become a  wealthy and refined gentleman to get his beloved Daisy back on his life.

The mentor, is represented by different characters, the first one to be on this archetypal is Nick’s Dad, who's advice would model the way He does not make any judgment and the narrative of the novel. In the mentor archetypal can also be found Dan Cody, who would model the potential of Gatsby to become successful. 

Tom Buchanan, fits the villain, representing the moral corruption and the lack of respect about other that are not like him, by this meaning not his sex, social status, economic status and even his race. His position in this archetypal also can be seen when out hero, Gatsby, try to overcome and destroy him, with his strategy of getting Daisy back to his life. 

Gatsby also represent the journey, the emotional quest our hero must undergo to achieve the greatness.

This novel, ends with the tragedy of our hero, Gatsby, who after overcoming his fate and showing great resilience to be a successful and refined gentleman, fall in to the obsession idea of the love he feels for Daisy and what she must feel for him, causing a series of unfortunate events leading to a tragic end, which is the accident involving the death of Myrtle, and after Toms blames Gatsby on a confusing situation, the murder of Gatsby by George Wilson.

Love archetypal plays an important role on this Novel, because it is Gatsby motivation to make everything happen, after he met Daisy, before going to the war, there was no future without her included, which made him do everything possible, chasing his vision of future overcoming all the situations on his life to be good enough for a girl with the social Status of Daisy. It’s also important to describe that love is also demonstrated in another way, on the description that Nick is doing when He is talking about Gatsby. It is love described from a friendship perspective, even taking care of Gatsby funeral when he is murdered.

[djrelentless]

“Look Before You Leap”

(An Overview Of The Ferguson Verdict)

November 25, 2014 at 6:20am

What was originally going to be a private message to a facebook friend turned into a post and evolved into a blog. The more I wrote the more I had to say. So, this is what came out....

All hell has broken out over the United States tonight! And social media is driving a lot of anger as well. We went through this with the Trayvon Martin verdict. And the sad thing is that we will be having this argument again in a few months as the numbers of deaths of people of color come in from future protests and racial profiling shootings. And it's not just black folks who are the victims. There are many cops who are being charged with racial profiling and murder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-xHqf1BVE4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AG_-EXd9Es

But I guess what is most disheartening is seeing folks that I have on my facebook friends list posting a lot of Anti-American memes and statements making jokes out of the pain and suffering of Black People in the states and making judgements about a group of people that you really don't know. I was very tempted to send a message to one that read: "Dude.....you're going a little heavy on the America bashing posts these days."

I am just as upset about the state of things in my home country too, but generalizing about people and places you really don't know is no different than Americans who think Canadians live in igloos and say "a-boot". If you're going by what you read and find online...don't. Many sites are set up to point out extremes. The major divide that is happening in the US has to do with The Right Wing being still upset over Obama being elected. They are not gonna let it go until he is out of office. They have made it their mission to discredit and destroy anything that Obama supports. And what is even sadder is that the poor uninformed Right Wingers (basically white and racist) don't realize that they are mere pawns in this propaganda as well. The "not-middle-class" family living in the midwest in a trailer park think that they voted against Obama in the last election when they really voted against themselves. The Republicans are gonna benefit from that last election....not you.

It is the Republicans securing their interests for the future. And trust me....the "Average Joe" (white, black or whatever color) is not included. The bad habits that the rich acquired during the Reagan and Bush years have spoiled the Republicans. That character in "The Wolf Of Wall Street" is real! They don't care about you and I. All they want to see is how much money they are going to make.

The racial bias in the United States is at an all time high. And as a person of color I can tell you it is real. I'm a fairly educated and a politically aware person and I still get discriminated against and racially profiled. After many witnesses and in some cases (video of police attacks) verdicts like this really damage what's left of race relations. Like the Rodney King and O.J. verdicts.....what little compassion and understanding that is on the table gets trampled. This cuts deeper every time a situation like this happens and I'm afraid that an all out race war is lurking under the surface. The extremes want it bad. The Republicans and FOX want it bad. It will keep everyone busy while the corporations continue to buy up the power and votes in the US. So, you see....this is bigger than some teenager getting shot. And our words shape and form what is to come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvE-1qAs1W4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrdPpkHYOdc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy_QTljnDJQ

Another thing to consider is the Bill Cosby allegations. Social media is driving his demise in public opinion. Being a person who was sexually abused I believe he has a serious problem. The time period that his fame came was about the same time as Sammy Davis Jr. And we all remember that his fame in the Brat Pack (Frank Sinatra & Dean Martin) took a major hit when he married Swedish actress, Mary Britt. Even John F. Kennedy shunned him and would not allow him to perform at his inauguration because of it. Bill Cosby was considered a hero in White America. For African-Americans who lived in low income housing and no where near the middle class, his TV character during the late 80s and early 90s was unrelatable. That family did not represent the reality of Black America and many felt Cosby was a new version of "Uncle Tom". And the reason I bring this up is that the fall of a major Black Man is the United States puts him back in his place. The Republicans have not been able to put Obama back in his place. He's the president....what can they do but be big babies and say "we're not gonna play with you"?

And although many people of color would like Obama to come out and say the truth about his treatment in The White House, it is not going to happen. Or at least it won't happen until he is well out of office. Often when I watch Obama speaking, his pauses are very evident of self editing. It looks like he is fighting the urge to say "Ya'll have no idea what these muthafuckas are doing to me." Of course, that is total conjecture on my part, but I feel for the man. He has to walk a very difficult line as the first Black President. His words and actions are all historic and he knows it. So, he chooses them very carefully.

I have one facebook friend who seems to go out of her way to bash Obama weekly. The funny thing is that she's a drag queen who hates Republicans as well. I have another facebook friend who loves to bash the US, but has never even been to any of the major cities to get an idea of what he is talking about. It all reminds me of when I went to Greece and spent most of my trip explaining that most Americans didn't vote for George W. Bush. It was more interesting to explain to gay men that I met in Athens that their fetishized image of Hip Hop artists like Busta Rhymes and Jay Z were in vain. They didn't believe me that they men would just as soon beat the shit out of them rather than accept their advances. It's funny how people cherry pick what they want to believe or accept. I have another friend who posted a question about blackface and I couldn't believe how many people did not understand how and why blackface would be offensive.

But don't get me wrong....I'm not saying that all these police shootings are unjust. I'm sure not all of the people of color who are stopped and frisked are saints. In the case of Eric Garner, apparently he had sold illegal cigarettes. Did he deserve to die of a choke hold? Absolutely not! Were there reasons to stop him? Yes...there was. Like in the case of 12 year old Tamir Rice who was shot and killed for reaching for an undistinguishable air gun when confronted by the police. A very sad story, but what in the hell was this kid thinking reaching for any type of gun while being confronted by the police?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/24/justice/cleveland-police-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

It's been said many times before, but somehow when times are hard, jobs are scarce and things are not going in your favor it is hard to remember that prejudice is taught. Social media has done wonders for sharing information, but unfortunately it has also helped in spreading hate, lies and misinformation. Before I post anything I try to at least fact check or check the source. With so many people with plenty of time on their hands there's many fake news sites that plant stories to get hits (no different than the folks who post photos everyday to see how many "likes" they will get). I guess, it's a self esteem thing. I try to post about what I truly believe in, what I am working on or promoting the things I like. I try to stay out of threads and conversations that I know nothing about. Giving uninformed opinions only make you look stupid and usually agitate the situation that you are commenting on. Look before you leap.

[peridot-tears]

#i think robininthelaberynth is the person i saw suggest that the untamed#is how wwx would like to remember the events of mdzs#and that works for me too#like i think as good at not dwelling and moving on#as mdzs wwx is#the second flautist would HURT#and it's the sort of thing he might wish was true in a secret corner of his heart#and then there's jiang cheng's face which i love#but it would be kind of hilarious if in universe#he only looks like that to wwx#because he knows him so well and everyone else is but jin ling#is just looking at minor variations on madame yu's sneer#but yeah i really don't think the wwx of the untamed#is lacking in complexity or moral ambiguity!#he tortures (a lot of) people to death#he makes a superweapon he can't control properly and is pretty cavalier about that#he does a shit job balancing his obligations to his sect (i'm not talking jc and yanli#i'm talking all the OTHER sect members he's also ditching and sticking with the murder bill while pretending that's nbd#and they should just be chill)#he's a real dick to a lot of people#including people who love him!#he's also kind and generous and extremely heroic and very traumatized and just#a fundamentally loving person who wants the world to be better than it is#he's trying so hard in an impossible situation and he's just a baby!#and i have absolutely seen book only people#declare that wwx has never done anything wrong in his life#and not in the fun way i respect and cherish#stop saying he only murders because of his poor self esteem and love of justice#let him murder for low self esteem and justice but also rage and vengeance#and a half articulated conviction that he might as well play judge jury and executioner because he's better qualified than JGS

Important tags by @winepresswrath​

You know what I just thought of? The Untamed might be how the story will be told in MDZS once a long time has gone by. Think about it: WWX didn't invent demonic cultivation but instead got the idea from more evil people, JGS and JGY were the root of all his image problems, there's evil magic metal that corrupts people rather than regular human nature - it's the perfect mostly sanitized propaganda piece with good guys and bad guys more neatly divided, which is what tends to happen to history.

I like this, but I admit that I personally fall into the camp of people that think there’s plenty of moral complexity in The Untamed. It definitely takes out or glosses over some of the darker stuff from the book, but both by virtue of its medium (visual storytelling with pretty broad acting) and because of a bunch of pretty deliberate adaptation choices The Untamed is also much more of an ensemble than MDZS, and I think giving other characters more time to establish their perspectives and motivations adds back in some of that complexity.  It goes out of its way to establish that the baseline of the cultivation world is violent and unjust and all our heroes are complicit in that (that archery scene! the general attitude towards blood feuds! Mingjue in his capacity as Mr. Righteous saying that it is basically impossible for the Jiangs to owe Wen Qing and Wen Ning anything in light of what their family did to his, and in fact kind of lowkey suggesting that acting otherwise is an unfilial dereliction of duty!).

Also, everyone is 300% less repressed and the question of how Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji feel about Wei Wuxian is not supposed to be much of a mystery. This doesn’t actually make the drama more complex, but it does give it yet more room to highlight the perspectives and motives of characters who are not Wei Wuxian, which I do think makes it harder to miss the complexity. We get stuff like The Untamed putting in the work to make sure the audience understands how we get from Jiang Cheng telling Zixun to shut up or put up in front of a war room full of the most important people in the cultivation world to Jiang Cheng saying “look I agree he shouldn’t have killed members of your clans but his heart was in the right place,” to Jiang Cheng at Nightless City, not taking the “fuck Wei Wuxian in perpetuity” vow but also very much not protesting when everyone else does. Is it spoonfeeding? Maybe, but it’s also delicious. Subtlety is dead to me I only want Wang Zhuocheng’s cryface.

That being said, these may just be things I’m particularly interested in and thus paying attention to? I’ve definitely seen meta from people who came away from both the show and the book under the impression that most conflicts were caused by people being too dumb or evil to handle Wei Wuxian’s awesomeness and equating “inconvenient to wangxian” with “bad,” and I’m going to be mean and say I think the problem is less with either work and more with their reading and viewing comprehension. I am very sympathetic to the pains of having your favourite elements of a book minimized or absent in an adaptation. Wei Wuxian is definitely a lighter shade of grey, considerably less repressed, and much less of an asshole in The Untamed, and Jiggy does get a hell of a villain edit (I think he’s plenty villainous in the book! but if I was a Jiggy apologist coming to The Untamed I’d be miffed). I get being annoyed about those changes! Just, you know, Wei Wuxian does still very much torture a lot of people to death for vengeance in a story that is in large part about the role vengeance plays in maintaining the cycle of violence.