#sorry i can't stop thinking about the sauron and celebrimbor dynamic

[ilmarin]

There are some interesting mirrors and contrasts with how Sauron kept bringing up Melkor/Morgoth to Celebrimbor and drawing parallels between his relationship with Morgoth and Celebrimbor’s with him. Morgoth’s punishment for all the destruction he wrought was being removed from the world by being thrown into the Timeless Void— and then, in the show? Sauron literally constructed a mental illusion that ran in a time loop to trap Celebrimbor; a place where the candles didn’t burn an inch, where everything appeared tranquil and peaceful, because no time passed. A timeless void of its own, removed from the real world of Eregion being burned and ransacked. I am the one keeping the storm at bay, balancing the very sun over your head, Sauron said, to give you one chance to prove your worth. His former master was imprisoned in the void for marring the world, Sauron will imprison Celebrimbor in his own timeless void to make the rings Sauron needs to “heal” that marred world. Celebrimbor labelled him Morgoth’s shadow and it’s the truth, as well as how Sauron literally lives in his shadow after all this time.

[rey-jake-therapist]

Haladriel : power play

I keep reading that Sauron didn't stop manipulate Galadriel for all season 1, that she's a poor victim, that she was abused by the big bad guy, yada yada.... It's false. Lol sorry but for most of season 1, it was Galadriel who pulled all the strings and Sauron, though reluctant at the beginning because he wanted to stay in Numenor and take the path of repentance, was happy to play along. "She wants me to be a king ? Alright, I'll be her king. Let it be my GIFT to her." The Lord of gifts is back, baby !

This dynamic changed during the finals though. I find Haladriel fascinating because there's always one who tops and the other who sorry, one who leads and the other who follows. In season 1, it was clearly Galadriel who was the leader in their dynamic. Can't escape the sexual metaphor I'm afraid 🤣, she was basically the dom. She gave orders, antagonized everyone starting with him, manipulated both him and Miriel, lied, gained time...

And he just happily followed, basically, mostly amused by this little young Elf (yeah she was baby if you think of it, Sauron's ancient lol) who bossed everyone around and thought she knew everything. I don't think he expected her to use his own tricks on him, and he was pretty much upset first because she was tempting him into a path he didn't want to go back to (oh the irony of Sauron being tempted into doing something bad...), but I think he was also impressed. He had just told her a couple of hours before how to use people's greatest fears to control them, and here she was.... Just doing it. On him !! The temptation to give her a good spank while whispering congratulation words for being such a good listener must have been.... Very strong.

The dynamic started to change the day Galadriel suspected Halbrand was not who she thought he was. One thing I always wondered is : did Sauron hope that Celebrimbor would repeat these words, "power over flesh", in front of Galadriel, because he wanted to prepare her for the revelation he intended to make when the rings would be ready ?

Anyway, to me the dynamic changed at this very moment :

I wrote a meta dedicated to "Sauron, Galadriel and touching" here. At the risk of sounding like a pretentious person who loves to hear her own voice, I'll do something I never do, quote myself :

Now, back to Sauron. While during all season 1 he was never touchy with Galadriel, in episode 8, he suddenly is. Not only that but he's also very flirtatious, like... more than usual. Galadriel seems surprised with this unsolicited touching, and iffy, because she doesn't trust him anymore. She has just asked one of her fellow Elves to look in the catacombs of Eregion for everything they had about the Southlands and their royal lineage; after she heard Celebrimbor talk about "power over flesh" and seen Sauron enthusiastically offer his aid to the smith, she starts suspecting that Halbrand may be not who he claims to be. Coincidence ? I think not. Even if she remained discreet, Sauron probably felt that something was off. He's very observant, and he knows her mind. If she changed of attitude with him, if she seemed even a little bit wary of him, there's no doubt he noticed it. He certainly planned to tell her the truth about him very soon, at that point, but he also wants the rings to be forged so he could show her what they'd do with them. So this, imho, is Sauron buying time. He knows she's attracted to him, he may even know she's in love with him... I think he's trying to breach her defenses, here.

Like I said in my linked post, so far Sauron never touched Galadriel umprompted. It is a first. And he was flirtatious before, but the way he leans in to whisper in her ear... That's something else. It's Sauron turning the tables and taking control of their dynamic. After this scene, up until the fight, we only see Galadriel in a retreat position, literally sidelined while Sauron found himself a new playmate (Celebrimbor), and she can do nothing but observe what is happening; she can't reveal her doubts as long as she doesn't get the confirmation she asked for. Of course, she hates it.

Then the finals. Galadriel confronts Sauron, who not only doesn't deny anything, but makes fun of her previous claim that she's much older than he is, by revealing he's himself older than the world. Notice how their behavior has changed, compared to how they were during the previous episodes : he's the one being sure of himself and controlling the situation, while she's confused and has lost all her composure, as all her certainties fall into crumbles.

Then she tries to stab him, but he effortlessly parries her attack.

Then she loses consciousness as he takes literal control of her mind. Starting from here, and up until the one, he's the dom dominating the situation ! He masquerades as her brother to manipulate her feelings, then brings her back to the raft, appeals to her temptation for power, offers her the moon and more. Then when she refuses, he makes himself indispensable by reminding her that without him, her people are doomed, presses where it hurts ("they cast you out"), and appeals to her pride ("what will they do when you tell them that you were my ally ?").

NOW that's some manipulation. Only then, did we get a glimpse of the tactics he would use on Celebrimbor in season 2.

As for their dynamics in season 2 finals, do I really need to spell it out ?

Galadriel tries to reverse the dynamics when she kicks Sauron in the face and tells him "the door shut", but ultimate fails. Oh, wait, does she ?

Galadriel almost gives in to Sauron in this finals. I know it's a popular interpretation that she was totally faking it when she took off Nenya and handed it to him, but it simply doesn't make sense with the music and the atmosphere of this scene. And if the "new bond" theory is true, it makes it even more impossible because there's no way she could pretend anything while being newly bound to Sauron. She looks captivated and ready to give in because she is, imho. This is her "last temptation". And Sauron believes that as well, because he saw it in her mind. He believes he won her over, because he almost did, indeed.

He looks so happy, I could almost feel sorry for him... What Sauron wanted Galadriel to understand, was that he wanted to heal Middle-Earth, to let him do that by giving him Nenya. He looks so happy here because he believes he has achieved that, at last.

I think Galadriel is also convinced that he wants to heal Middle-Earth, but she can never approve his methods, so... She lets herself fall off the cliff to escape him and by doing so, reverses the dynamics and takes power again, even at the risk of losing her life in the process. Sacrificing yourself not to let your toxic ex win you over is the ultimate power move if you ask me.

I know there's a new popular theory that wants Nenya to be the one who made Galadriel snap out of it, but sorry, I strongly disagree with this idea. One, because it takes off Galadriel's agency : she was saved by Elrond, saved by Arondir, and now Nenya ? I can't deny it's a personal bias as I want Galadriel to save herself in this one, and I won't go and claim it as a fact.. but sorry, it's a no for me. I've been told about the "Nenya sound" playing during this scene. Well, precisely, this sound tells me exactly the opposite of this theory, because it is heard when Galadriel is handing Nenya to Sauron, and stops exactly when she snaps out of it to say "Heal yourself".

It seems to me that Nenya wanted to go to Sauron, and not the other way around. Sauron said, "the rings are mine". I thought for a while that he meant only the Nine, but no, he considers that all the rings, including the Elven ones, are his. He thinks of himself as "their master". But he also knows that Nenya picked Galadriel as her bearer (or was it him ?), so she's also Galadriel's ring. That's why he wants her to give Nenya to him, as a sign of submission to him. The way I see it, when he asked Galadriel to give him Nenya, he expected Nenya to push her in this direction, and I think that's what Nenya indeed did, hence the sound.

Except that Galadriel resisted. It left Sauron confused. Then he thought about the Dwarves rings, whose owners also refused to be controlled by him even though he had more input in the creation of their rings than he had in the Elven ones'. So he will forge the One Ring, that will allow him, he believes, to take such a tight control on his rings that their bearers will no longer be able to resist him. The Elves will realize that pretty fast and will reluctanctly take off their rings, for all the time that Sauron will wear the One Ring.

"But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings." [The Silmarillion].

Interesting fact : the One Ring never seeme to affect the Dwarves. Their rings made them more greedy than they already were, but forging the One Ring didn't allow Sauron to control them. It has been suggested that it could be because they weren't aware of its power/didn't understand it :

The Dwarves used their Seven Rings to establish their treasure hoards, but Sauron was unable to force the Dwarven bearers to submit. It is believed that the dwarves' natural hardiness, and the fact that it was only the more powerful dwarf lords who possessed them, made them resistant to Sauron's control, yet allowed them to accumulate treasure. The final ring to leave the possession of the dwarves occurred when Thráin II was captured. Source

If a Tolkien expert is in the room and can provide some context, it'd be very nice...

Funny how Galadriel's "I resisted" sounds delusional in retrospect. She really believes she did, doesn't she ? She believes that, because when Sauron offered her to be his queen (a fact which for *cough* some reasons *cough* she chose to hide from Elrond, Gil-Galad and of course, Adar himself...), she said 'no'.

The thing is, she indeed vocally resisted to the temptation of joining him, but everything she did afterwards showed Galadriel actually doing exactly what he wanted her to do.

I mean, who wanted rings ? Sauron. She knew that Sauron worked for Celebrimbor for weeks, knew he was the one who came up with the idea of a "power over flesh", knew it was his idea to tap into the unseen world, knew he had put his evil hands literally everywhere in the forge, including the mithril and her own dagger... And yet, she.... wait, she did exactly what Sauron disguised as Finrod told her to !

Sauron wanted these rings to be made, and she complied. To paraphrase Elrond, she gave him what he wanted and thanked him for that, I mean look at how happy she was to have a ring :

And if you're not convinced, there's the forewarning vision of Celebrimbor that Galadriel had in early S2, with Sauron calling her name and Celebrimbor asking her "are these not the seeds you planted ?", before being suffocated to death by roots looking like snakes :

There are no subtitles for what Celebrimbor said in black speech so here's the translation :

"Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die"

This vision showed almost exactly what would happen: the rings that Sauron would forge, and Celebrimbor's death. Even the way he dies in the vision is identical to his actual death. Galadriel believes it's a warning sent by Nenya and that she has to go to Eregion to save Celebrimbor, but wasn't it another trick of Sauron, who as Elrond suggested, probably wanted her in Eregion ?

I was divided on this point until the finals really, where Sauron turned into Celebrimbor and repeated the exact same sentence she had heard in the vision: "Aren't they the seeds you planted ?".

How could Sauron know about that, if he wasn't the one who sent her the vision ? For the record, it wasn't a mind palace case like in season 1, where he invaded Galadriel's mind and used her memories of her brother. Halbrand's words, her own words, they all came from his memories. So in all logic, so did vision Celebrimbor's.

Sauron also wanted Galadriel not to reveal his identity : check.

Instead of telling Celebrimbor and Elrond the truth about Halbrand, she just inexplicably chose to keep her mouth shut, and left Eregion without informing Celebrimbor that the nice human he had worked with for weeks was actually Sauron, the Great Deceiver. She rather took the risk of letting Sauron come back in Eregion (I mean, telling Celebrimbor not to work with Halbrand again wasn't enough of a warning, be serious Gal !), than admit she had let a demon in his walls ; because of her pride, exactly as Sauron wanted. This bastard looked so smug about it when he realized she had done exactly what he expected her to :

If she had told Celebrimbor the truth, he would have never been allowed to even pass the door. This tolerance told him everything he needed to know.

But apart from that... She "resisted".

I'm very curious to see what will be the dynamics for season 3. Who will lead the dance this time ? My bet is on Galadriel.

[d3sertdream3r]

I've been loving trop this season!! I am wondering how the whole SauronxGaladriel thing is going to play out though I'm nervous it won't be very satisfying with everything they've built up and all the marketing hype it's gotten. I'm worried they're baiting shippers to get more people to watch. Thoughts?

Oh boy, I have MANY thoughts!

I am absolutely DEVOURING this season, anon! The first episode in particular really blew me away. As a Saurondriel/Haladriel shipper, I thought all the direct parallels shown in Sauron and Galadriel’s journeys were PERFECT! 

I was worried they were going to retcon Sauron’s genuine feelings of despair and questioning if he should “repent” or not due to the amount of hate and toxicity from the usual suspects on the internet. Instead they really leaned into it, and I loved seeing The Dark Lord having nightmares. It’s a side of him we’ve never seen explored before! And that Annatar reveal… holy moly! Celebrimbor and I were both like: 

Galadriel has been breaking my heart in each episode. Elrond and Gil-Galad need to give my girl a break! Morfydd Clark’s acting is stellar. She is so heartbroken over not recognizing Sauron for who he truly was and even worse… catching feelings for him! She’s really going through it and it hurts, but it’s also brilliant on the writers’ part. 

Everyone else’s acting and stories are great too. Arondir was a favorite of mine last season and continues to be this season. Disa is FANTASTIC and I love her and Durin so much there aren’t any words to describe it. Isildur and Estrid are cute and I’m interested to see how their story plays out. I hardcore ship Elendil and Miriel, and his daughter needs to take a seat before she helps Pharazon destroy their home! I know the story, but MAN was it killing me to see how Eärien is contributing to its downfall in this show (in a good way… I think having her be involved with the opposite side of her father makes for great drama). 

As to the second part of your ask… I have been involved in many online fandoms for about 13 years now, and I gotta say that 98% of the time fans come up with way more interesting storylines than the creators of any show. A lot of the time they just don't deliver. I’ve been burned over and over again, so my bar is pretty low at this point. 

They’ve done a fabulous job with the Saurondriel dynamic so far, and I’ve seen some really interesting fan theories about Galadriel briefly joining Sauron or being taken prisoner by him. As truly fascinating as that would be, I’m not holding my breath. I think it’ll be a rehash of season one’s ending with more violence since they have swords this time around. After that, I’m guessing they’ll focus on Sauron gaslighting, gatekeeping, and girlbossing his way to the throne of hell while Galadriel and company work together to stop him. They’ve hinted at Celeborn a bit, I’m sure we’ll see them reunited at some point. 

I’m sorry if this isn’t very reassuring! I wish I could be more optimistic about Saurondriel in season 3, but I honestly don’t think Tolkien’s estate would go for Galadriel falling to the dark side in any capacity. Sauron taking her prisoner could happen, but I highly doubt it simply because as I said before, fans tend to have better ideas than a lot of creators in my opinion.

I could be completely wrong! I have just learned not to trust creators to handle things the BEST way, but that doesn't mean it won't be handled in a GOOD way. Hopefully that makes sense, lol. I think some people will be satisfied and some people won't, just like every other story. The shippy photoshoots and marketing have been delightful! I can't tell if they're baiting until I see the last episode. I think they were just having fun, but some comments from cast and creators would definitely seem a bit baity if the payoff is underwhelming. We'll see!

I really hope the season goes out with a bang and we all have something to love about it; especially Saurondriel shippers!