#since i don't think cazador would turn someone actually powerful/well known into a spawn for Obvious Reasons

[elminster-big-naturals]

"what kind of law did astarion pass to piss off the gur so much 😂"

aside from the fact magisters don't pass laws, the implication that cazador was just kind of casually waiting around for his moment bc knew astarion was Such a dickhead that someone was going to beat his ass to death eventually is extremely funny

[tugoslovenka]

While I personally disagree with the Forgotten Realms' strict interpretations of their vampires as this anon wishes that BOTH angles could be possible (a vampire struggling and mourning their loss of humanity and vampires who embrace their newfound monstrosity). Especially since they've done it before.

One of Strahd's enemies, a sun elf turned vampire in the older Ravenloft editions named Jander Sunstar, was never directly given an Evil alignment and was clearly empathetic and remorseful regarding his condition. He shows up in 2e as a CN vampire with noticeable CG tendencies, 3e labelled him CE but his personality reflected that less, I feel. He technically is a CR13 creature in 5e as well (Monster Manual after all).

All that said... Ascended Astarion is clearly the latter example. He wanted power. He got power. Power doesn't corrupt---it reveals a lot of the time. If you, Tav, don't encourage him to see that you DON'T need to be a dominating power hungry monster (aka. all he's known and seen from Cazador)... then he becomes a power hungry monster. 🤯🤯🤯 SHOCKING.

It feels like a lot of woobifying and wanting him to still be better than he actually is. Having your cake and eating it too, if you will. Plenty of vampires can be neutral or even good in behaviour with enough discipline and they have been in the setting. If anything, they are probably just the Planes and Detect Alignment spells always pinging them as Evil. But... Ascended Astarion is not that LMAO. I'd even argue he starts the game as NE or CN, and no shit he does. Why would he think to show any vulnerability when he tells himself that killing SEVEN THOUSAND INNOCENT SPAWN IS JUSTIFIABLE because HE had no power and he DESERVES to do this. In a lot of ways, I can still see someone being sympathetic and wanting him to have that chance, not perhaps realizing the gravity of what that does to his soul.

Almost like... he committed a horrendous act and became a worse person for it. The curse and added Infernal component just adds to it and as interactions are as they are ingame for Act 3... like, WHY are people so shocked by the consequences of their own actions?

Sorry for filling your box with random thoughts. Your takes are thought-provoking and fun to read so I hope this is okay!

oh god i see a big anon message and start sweating but i'm so glad you're at least here to discuss and not preach kkjgkshg

i feel like the point of vampires being monsters isn't just a d&d thing, its just a general mythos thing. the good thing about d&d is that you are well within your right to create whatever story you want with your group, the rules and guides are there to just give you some basics. but obviously there are outliers within every race/monster/class. that's what makes stories exciting. so yes having someone like sunstar is an interesting juxtaposition to strahd but he is also an outlier, an exception if you will.

do i believe vampires can be good? no. do i believe they can be neutral and work towards a better alignment/not becoming genocidal dickwads? absolutely. there is nothing that says vampires can't drink animal blood for sustenance, there is nothing that mentions they will die if they don't fuck with humanoids, there is nothing that makes it so they have to have spawn/consorts/puppets. so with that in mind, do as you wish with your own vampires.

some races are meant to be evil for lore/gameplay purposes, that's just part of it. drow are naturally going to align to evil, but that doesn't mean drizzt can't exist to break the stereotypes and work towards something "better". goblins are also the primary evil bad guys in every low level campaign, but that doesn't mean they can't work for something "better".

my point was more general there, that people like to take away everything that makes vampires vampires (in every universe, not just d&d) and twist it just so their little babyboy can be slotted into the "good ones" category which is what i despise. astarion will never be good aligned no matter what happens. he is a chaotic neutral at best.

but yes, exactly as you said. not only does the game constantly hint to, point to and expressely tell you what is going to happen when he gets these souls, and give you very clear answers POST ascension/spawn of who he is and what he would have/has become, but you would have to be willfully ignorant to deny it. you can understand why he would want to get power, you don't have to approve of it or encourage it. i feel like people are missing that difference, it's as though they are trying to convince others of why astarion wants this outcome, and i feel most people can understand that. the problem is what happens after it and what it causes not only to him but to others around him.

ty for the morning discourse, i'm typing this with one eye open.