#rhaena targaryen (dreamfyre's rider)'s characterization

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I hate that HOTD changed the story of Daenerys’ dragon eggs and choose to erase Rhaena the Black Bride. Rhaenyra doesn’t need another connection to Daenerys, she is her direct descendant already, Rhaenyra’s blood literally flows through her veins. People fail to see that Daenerys’s dragons and the relevance of them coming from Rhaena’s Dreamfyre is not just for shits and giggles. These dragon eggs are Rhaena and Daenerys most important connection that tie them them thematically as another example of Daenerys subverting the tragic pattern of her female ancestors.

Rhaena flourished after bonding with Dreamfyre, the same way Daenerys finds comfort in her dragon eggs during the most difficult and painful times of her life and how she came to forge her own path after they hatched. And Rhaena was also the first of the many women from House Targaryen whose birthright was stolen on the account of being a woman. But Daenerys, the last Targaryen princess, will obviously subvert this.

Agreed 100%. BOOST!

Rhaenyra also already had that mirroring of the Amethyst Empress/Bloodstone Emperor/end of magic thing that Daenerys' own mythos is connected to.

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The mindset that Grrm hates Rhaenyra because he made her go through so much is questionable imo mostly because of Rhaena the queen in the west and east, who is one of (if not THE) most interesting and complex figures of F&B, alongside Rhaenyra herself. Rhaena too loses so much in the course of her life, suffers so much, is even scolded by her own daughter for not being a particular good/perfect mother and she still has so many iconic moments, although many don't find her particular nice either, just like with Rhaenyra.

Thank you, anon, exactly. This Rhaena dies nearly all alone at the haunted castle of Harrenhal...but ther story is one of the most gripping, painful, tragic, and emotionally engaging ones about womanhood, sexuality, and motherhood. Dreamfyre's first rider simply has more in general AND in the tragic department precisely because she, more than Helaena, was an active doer of a narrative, and that is why you will find more people hate on her in ways they do not Helaena.

I don't hate Helaena, these are just the facts of the matter; Helaena is the most "innocent" of her group, but she also doesn't do much anything that could be used against her or is controversial, though some people say that she could and should have done more to prevent Rhaenyra's usurpation form the inside.To which I say, eh, I don't know about that.

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Alysanne set Targaryen women back. Had she been less pussy watching her misogynist husband stealing their daughter and granddaughter crown in favor of men and just selling their daughters or sending them away like some rabid dogs (justice for Viserra!)… Oh and helping her brother to steal their sister’s crown (sister who damn near raised them). She pissed me off so bad, she’s going to hell with her nasty ass husband 🙏

Even though this is true in a real sense and she hadn't been fair to her own daughters, even with Gael (when she reasonably had the more breadth to change after losing her other daughters) & even is responsible for one's death, I do also see how tirelessly she worked for women in Westeros and they do have some form of protection from noblemen because of Alicent's "Queen's Laws" (right of 1st night abolished and the Widow's Law). These are meaningful acts, even though they had less impact on Targ women directly than they did on peasant folk and other noblewomen.

Two things can be true at once; she clearly had a lot of power with Jaehaerys but what she most wanted to do--to raise the female heir apparent and have Jaehaerys' naming a girl when that opportunity arose--she found that she hit Jaehaerys' limit(s), saw how little she could do to really negate his power as the king/really understood the consequences of what being a Queen consort meant in terms of the unequal powers and subservience, and I think she was compelled more and more down the years, without really realizing it consciously, to anticipate and shape her own actions, words, and plans around what she knew and felt he'd approve or allow. Which in turn affected how she'd view her daughters and how she'd arrange their lives. We see how she's condescendingly treated by the maesters at Oldtown when she visits when she remarks that she'd like to see female maesters and how Jaehaerys never makes a comment to perhaps back her up. (Condescending because they obviously don't believe that women can be as smart as them even with one clearly being in front of their face; they probably thought of Alysanne as an exception.) ("Birth, Death , and Betrayal"):

It's quite obvious she felt more and more like she had no agency or control to do the actual things she wanted. I feel like there was most likely tiptoeing.

Yeah Jaehaerys said to Viserra that he doesn't interfere with Alysanne's decisions concerning marriages, but he says TWICE that Viserra's marriage to Theomore Manderly would be extremely beneficial to "the Iron Throne" ("Policy, Progeny, and Pain"):

...Alysanne wasn't blind or deaf to this, she herself went North to convince Alaric Stark to be more amicable towards Jaehaerys and was involved in the deal of the New Gift. Alysanne was acting for Jaehaerys' interests and then seemed to justify the wrong by making as if Viserra was disrupting the harmony of the family Alysanne is supposed to have the higher authority over (again, note that she probably felt more of her authority & agency as illusory) as both the mother and the Queen Consort. Her decision to marry Viserra off to Theomore specifically was greatly due to it being what Jaehaerys most wanted.

While she never lost courage to bring up things or confront Jaehaerys completely, she did this less and less over the years. She was always much more limited than Rhaenys, Alyssa Velaryon, & Visenya concerning politics. Perhaps she felt this and-- By how she reacts to the Braxton Beesbury duel and how she progressively gloms onto Gael--she simultaneously opted to distance herself from Jaehaerys more and more without really making big confrontations until it came to the head of Saera running away, Daella dying, Viserra dying...when things are too late.

It's a pattern for sure, but a pattern I think Alysanne didn't feel she could get out of. Ironically, it matches Rhaena's own pattern of being "too late" in regards to Alyssa Velaryon and Aerea Targaryen's deaths. Both of these women seem to burrow into their psychological "safe spaces" or coping mechanisms and eventually harm or isolate themselves from those closest to them because they are compelled to try to preserve the smallest sense of agency their privileges as dragonriding Queens in a dynasty quickly assimilated into Andal patriarchy allows.

So, kinda sure. Yes she was complicit. She made her choices, but those choices were made under social compelled personal compromises. So, not too too much on Alysanne so as to make her equal to Jaehaerys. She wasn't perfect by far and again, was responsible for her kids' deaths (Viserra and Gael and Daella) but she can't be called the same or motivated similarly as Jaehaerys was nor that her actions would have been what they were if she hadn't lived in the misogynist setting with a sexist husband she married at 13 as she did. Another perfectly flawed, misguided female character, one who really wanted to "change the world" but was confined by her gender-exclusive role. She did deserve that "Good Queen" title.

Ironically, one of the only reprieves Viserra would have had if she had married Theomore was the very widow's Law that Alysanne made sure became a thing. A small and perhaps unsatisfactory "compensation", considering. Or a lifeline? Shows us all the more the precarious state of married life for women and girls.

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I just love how Rhaena put fuck ass Alysanne and Jaehaerys in their places:

“You have everything and I have nothing. Now you would take my daughter too. Well, you shall not have her. You have my throne, content yourself with that.” — Fire & Blood, Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I.

“All the lands are taken, all the castles occupied,” Rhaena replied, “but there is one I have a claim to … a better claim than your own, brother. I am the blood of the dragon. I want my father’s seat, the place where I was born. I want Dragonstone.” — Fire & Blood, A Time of Testing, the Realm Remade.

Rhaena was so tired at the end after all the personal tragedies she has endured and both Alysanne and Jaehaerys were playing in her face, flaunting HER crown in her face. She’s so much better than me cause I would have beat the entire fuck outta them.

Yep, I mention this, I think, in this post or this post about her and her siblings.

I think she sounded so abrasive to some people, so out of pocket and irrationally irrational because it is true that:

Jaehaerys was male, favored for it by at least one very powerful lord

Alyssa Velaryon (their mother) had to leave their other brother and her behind in Maegor's grasp to save Jaehaerys & Alysanne

Problem is that...she was left behind and Maegor raped her, so yeah she'd feel abandoned. Because even with Alyssa's intentions, it is also true that Rhaena was. Then both her mother and the man she marries/the same dude supporting Jaehaerys begin to see her as more ofa threat to Jaehaerys' claim/the peace the made after Maegor's death.

If she hadn't been raped AND her own brother hadn't begun to ice her out, I really think Rhaena would have been a bit more gracious towards them all...because she would have had more room to be so.

But, ya know...

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You know, after someone on Twitter pointed out that Rhaena--Dreamfyre's rider--booked it with not only her child but Blackfyre to get away from THE Maegor but people think Helaena could do nothing, I got to thinking about other criticisms about Helaena's passiveness contributing to the usurpation.

I also saw someone say that she should have been written to be more like Young show!Alicent.

Overall, I've shifted in my some of my thoughts...a little. Or perhaps I'm just explaining myself.

We don't have any indication that Helaena and Rhaenyra were all that close--saying "sweet sister" could also mean Rhaenyra showing mercy to a non-actor, make sure her kids at least have a mother (even though at that point, Rhaenyra hadn't thought of even killing her brothers), or maybe because she felt Helaena was still also a pawn and thus deserved to have the chance of living along with those ids peacefully.

I'm not saying bk!Helaena was objectively totally helpless to at least declare she wouldn't be using Dreamfyre or anything like that. I'm saying that she believed she was. And possibly and very likely like Young!Alicent, learned to put herself subsidiary--body and mind--towards Aegon-being-king goal and probably convinced herself that the "best" thing for Rhaenyra and herself was Aegon being king.

It's also important to note that the greens would very likely have thought that Helaena shouldn't actually fight on Dreamfyre or fly away to Dragonstone:

Aenys didn't want Rhaena to take her dragon out on the progress he arranged for his chosen heir/her brother--Aegon (the "Uncrowned")--because he didn't want to invite any public emasculation for said heir when Aegon tUC didn't even have a dragon yet. Dreamfyre is also, very likely, much bigger than Sunfyre. Obviously, societal gender ideology playing their hand here in how the monarchy/higher classes will control their own image...

For a group trying to push forward and maintain a male's superiority and later tries to use the symbols of rulership during a hasty coronation, then had Aegon ride his dragon around KL after said coronation...even on point of an actual battle--unless they felt pressed to have to rely on Helaena in the "last" moment--they will not want Aegon to look "weak" in anyway when placed next to his own Queen Consort.

Helaena has her "job" in KL to safeguard the wellbeing of the heirs Aegon has, and like with Rhaena in a way, she is compelled to stay behind to present a force of protection for said heirs.

Unlike Rhaena, who's mortal enemy was Maegor--the died she was running from--Helaena in this scenario would be betraying her own family who hadn't r*ped or directly threatened her kids the way Maegor did Rhaena. We may argue that her marriage to Aegon must have had some acts of nonconsensual contact bc of who Aegon was (some'll argue that like Rhaena, she should have taken this for the horror it was or have some perspective and dip), but it's also important to note that (a) this was a world where marriage isn't really that much of an option for any noble offspring (much less the girls) (b) this marriage was not the type of "against her will" as Rhaena's or made during war, but the "ordinary" aristocratic kind--thus Helaena had no necessary substantial push or incentive to "defect" or go against Aegon and her entire family (c) "duties and obligations" feudal mindset amplified by family bonds is strong enough for many ordinary people to not pursue any possible doubts they may have.

unlike Rhaena, Helaena more or less has been kept like a pseudo-child apart from marriage bc of that intellectual, emotional, etc. isolation she'd have

I think that bk!Helaena had to have leaned towards on Aegon having more of a "right" because she, like show!Alicent but I still also think she never expected to actually be called to war on Dreamfyre because of her role as his wife...at least until they have exhausted their "resources" so they can win the day, as men & these systems tend to do (exclude women until they absolutely need them). The difference b/t her and Rhaena's situation is that:

Rhaena seemed to have made that decision herself or mostly herself after Aegon decided to not send their daughters away, whereas Helaena's green part of the family would have made this decision for her and she anticipated this and chose not to try to resist even if she felt even a bit trepidation of some kind of betrayal against Rhaenyra [look below in the next paragraph]

As both her maternal and paternal parentages are either Velaryon or Targaryen, Rhaena didn't have anyone else to really raise her kids if she AND her brother Aegon (the "Uncrowned") were to die in battle. No family outside of younger children, no other army besides that of her closest friends which wasn't enough against Maegor in general. Helaena, however, has her mother's maternal house already hosting her younger brother Daeron AND at least 2 other dragons-riders (yeah I'm including Aegon even though rulers really shouldn't go to battle themselves unless extreme circumstances call or suggest that's needed--I think she would have known he'd go of his own will) before she'd ever be "called" to fight

I'm talking the greens/Alicent being even more extreme in their Faith beliefs and/or putting on performances of faithfulness towards the "natural", gendered order favoring male primogeniture that the Faith constantly affirms.

Despite what I point out abt Aenys and the progress and Aenys' own desperation to get the Andal descendant subjects to "love" him through his people pleasing, they still were not exactly zealots but being zealots; more than anything, they feened for validation form people around them and to successfully assure the dynasty's survival through people pleasing. Rhaena had parents who were something from accommodating towards her despite their own version of desperation one might parallel to the greens' shadier one. They did not force Rhaena to conform at the same level or consistency. And we know this bc Alyssa herself points out that if she had been a bit more hands-on with Rhaena, she wouldn't have had to see her hang out "too much" with her female friends, which is why she was much more observatory of who Alysanne spend her time with (funny how this still didn't work, but I digress).

There's sometimes, with some girls/women, a point where a woman/girl would just "give in" to the prominent sense of her particular group when she observes she has little real say or agency in most things, including her own body and isolated from any other alternative base of knowledge than what those who raised her have given. And this could come with a sense of having to go towards the "easiest" route available to you and "everyone" involved. Conflict avoidance. And it begins really young, of course.

So, to review, Helaena probably never even thought that a declaration to not use Dreamfyre was even necessary because she nor the greens around her would have thought to use her in that way. And thus, I still think she decided to "make the most" of a situation by complying with her green side and look for a more peaceful end, and thus both decided to clam Aegon down at that council by going along with Orwyle's more "Rhaenyra will have to see reason" attempt at negotiations ("The Blacks and the Greens"):

Both women are looking to avoid losing their own kids, but Alicent more than Helaena is actually willing to wage a war if "need" be. This quote makes me feel like what I've argued above about Helaena always looking to go the more conflict-adverse option available.

This doesn't mean she wouldn't be culpable, but neither does it mean she eagerly thought Aegon "deserved" to be king or was so zealous about male primogeniture as some imply just because she didn't announce herself "neutral", grab her kids, and fly to Rhaenyra to prostrate herself.

Not exactly "brainwashing", more a self-defeating understanding of herself and the world about her based from a very common education of one's relationship to authority. Younger show!Alicent annoyed me, but I didn't exactly have any negative passion for her until her confronting Rhaenyra in ep4. I do think that it's pretty cool people have thought show!Helaena should have acted more like Yshow!Alicent; I agree!

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About the Helaena/Rhaena comparisons (we can also include Alyssa Velaryon in this) both Rhaena and Alyssa fled to save themselves and their children, while putting another child at risk. Maegor ordered the death of Rhaella and she was only saved because Lord Hightower refused to behead her and imprisoned the messenger instead. Alyssa fled, but Viserys who was Maegor's squire paid the price as he was tortued for days until he finally passed away. Those 2 women's circumstances are very diffrent from Helaena's situation. There is nothing to suggest she ever opposed being queen, even if she was never part of the plots & schemes. Helaena also never had any problems with Rhaenyra and her children (unlike her brothers);

Both sides are arguing essentially the same thing "Helaena is not a black, she Could have fled, but she choose her side" vs "Why would Helaena abandon her family for Rhaenyra",. Overall, Helaena choose her side and I don't think she ever gave any thought of leaving. I don't think she would have ever abandoned Alicent.

anon responds to this post.

Both TG and TB argue that Helaena had choice enough, but one says that she was deliberately against Rhaenyra's claim while some of the other tries to make as if she is either totally helpless OR she was morally right & smart to to alert and prostrate herself in front of Rhaenyra. I'm saying that Helaena never really imagined herself apart from her part of the family while also never really thinking evil of her older sister and being conflict avoidant. Annoying and misguided, but not hatred-worthy.

Rhaena and Alyssa had to do what they did/run for their and their kids' lives; Helaena didn't have any such immediate reason to believe she was unsafe...until Lucerys' death, but even then I don't think she ever thought--or anyone would--anyone would carry out that revenge in that way. Alyssa and Rhaena fled for their or the kids they could save's lives from actors who had some belief that they'd present a danger to them; Viserys was already too close to Maegor physically for Alyssa to manage to get him, and Rhaella was all the way in the Reach, out of Rhaena's reach. Helaena is and never could be considered so to the green side of the family. Rhaena very likely could never see any value in being one of Maegor's queens...bc her own kids would always be in direct danger, as well as herself...and this is the same guy who killed her two younger brothers, one of them being the father of her kids and whose claim she supported, and then r*ped her. Alyssa was definitely unsafe under Maegor's rule, being the mother of a living son of the last king. As I noted in that other post, Helaena, by contrast, had no real reason or immediate incentive to feel her own mother, husband/father of said kids, grandfather, or brother would harm her or her children--other than love, they are Aegon's heirs and she is his Targaryen sister-wife-Queen consort.

I have acknowledged that the situations were different in that last post, as I gave even more reasons than this for how a comparison b/t Helaena & Rhaena to say Helaena & Rhaena were in the exact same positions and so Helaena was obviously an opp wasn't exactly fair.

Helaena did choose a side, but she hadn't been given nor developed much of an alternative way of thinking she could choose differently. And yeah, I think that being a queen might have at least given her some peace in that it is a "reward", as it might for many other women/girls. Which is possibly partly why she never opposed becoming Queen consort, but why Alicent, anon?

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I’ve always disliked Rhaena. She was a terrible, neglectful mother to her daughter and an abusive, cheating wife to Androw Farman.

*EDITED POST* (11/25/24)

Response to this post HERE.

The same guy who killed what seems to be a teenage girl because his wife came to hate him and wouldn't allow him to accrue more power or esteem through her position yet also wanted her to become politically subordinate to her out of jealousy and a fragile ego? Sure, let's go through this.

blankwhiteshield says this:

You can have an irredeemable and evil character that the patriarchy still suppresses and affects the psychology of immensely, rendering her a bigger monster. The commentary on the destructive capacity of static social constructs is not lost as a result. A character can turn into the devil of the story due to a world that ceaselessly strips her of her humanity, as well as as a result of the choices she actively makes.

And Rhaena was never actually evil or abusive or anything like these things at all, esp BEFORE she's forced to marry Maegor, etc.

Her History (and a Pseudo-Summary of Later Explanations)

I perceive Rhaena to have been sensitive in her youth and then grew more bitter from the slights & abuses against her. The hurt becomes the hurter. It started as ner needing to be away from people towards the end of her life, especially when they expressed they didn't want her around and they had been with her intimately (romantic, familial, or platonic).

Though she started shy and always preferred to be either alone or with close friends, it is that reservedness that makes her value her bonds with a select group of people that makes their dismissals or betrayals hurt that much worse. Thus her lashing out, her brooding, her solitary runs, and her cold "bloodthirstiness" against Androw after she realizes he killed all her remaining friends. All ways for her to collect her perenially crushed dignity.

She marries Androw just to be close to Elissa and she never mistreats Androw until Elissa leaves. Then she lashes out, because this is already on top of all the other betrayals that happened before she ever met either of them.And it's still not abuse; she kept mainly to herself and ignored him, talked harsh when he insisted on interacting when she clearly wanted not much to do with him.

It's very easy to accuse her of flagrant abuse when you erase context or leave shit out. She ticks off 3 of 8 behaviors of emotional abuse (in italics):

threats

insults

constant monitoring

excessive jealousy

manipulation

humiliation & ridiculing

intimidation

dismissiveness

But if every argument or insult between any sort of relationship doesn't have insults or some level of dismissiveness, and then humiliation when these things go unaddressed properly for some time, I'll eat my hat. You'd be lying. Are all relationships (platonic or otherwise) abusive, then?

And we know that it would have continued. The details we get, she:

continued to accuse/suspect him of helping Elissa run away and steal her dragon eggs

said that the "wrong Farman" ran away

laughed after her ladies laughed when he requested to replace a man named Bullock as the garrison commander

mocked him when she said how he couldn't stay on a dragon even if he tried after he declared they'd go together to the dying Alyssa

...but also does this or the women making fun of the man (more on that later) merit MASS femicide and killing kids for your own growing self-loathing AND does Rhaena's actions actually have terrible wide-range consequences for those outside of her small group?

(Reminder, femicide is different from just killing a woman. Femicide is killing a person because they are a woman and you wish to display dominance in destroying a woman & instilling their inferiority or subservient position to oneself, to punish her for straying from that role. Again, I explain how Androw falls under a femicidal person.)

Of course, Elissa left bc Rhaena already was in her state of bitterness and to kickstart her sailor-captain-adventurer dreams. However, if we argue that Rhaena shouldn't have put down a grown man's self-esteem and hurt both her lover & daughter so she could feel more in control...shouldn't we hold Androw Farman accountable for his crimes in response to those put-downs and slights?

I think that the strength of Rhaena's writing is how human she is and is allowed to be by the narrative while showcasing how she pulled others into her misery with no coddling nor outright subtextual disgust.

In Rhaena, we get the raised question of what do we do with a victim who's BOTH fallen into darkness and then faces more of the similar thing they resented or has pushed them into the darkness? We also see the beginnings and consequences of female Targ abuse. I think we can appreciate Rhaena as a layered female character with many faults developed from abuses or ignoring those abuses, exacerbated over time while being the center of a story within a major one. Something we don't get often enough for women.

In Rhaena, we're getting a very detailed look into non-ideal motherhood, womanhood, and victimhood--from her and those she hurt. But a very real one.

She clearly has loyalty to her own family and house, cares about her kids as a mother (look below), but also seeks out any sort of compensation or some sort of justice for the suffering and sidelining that came from being a woman, and a woman in the wrong place of history AND being a female Targ. And subsequently, we see how being a woman onto oneself AND having real happiness can be antitheitcal, bc her position even as a princes and dowager, bc she doesn't have enough ability to protect herself from the actions of her male family members--inclu Jaehaerys--is designed to be a vulnerable one.

She is quite literally our first account of what being a female Targaryen princess/royal family member is like (Alyssa Velaryon does not grow up royal or a Targ). She foreshadows & heralds the exclusionary/oppressive fates of Targ women, especially under war, and shows us the one way a woman (does not or cannot) deal with the fallout & decisions of others.

(Check out the quote way below of her criticizing her mother's decision to marry Rogar despite Rogar having abandoned Aegon when he battled Maegor above the God's Eye).

We remember that her brother Aegon was named heir over her despite her being the oldest child of Alyssa & Aenys. She did not complain or protest at this because she grew up in this patriarchal society and lived more or less privileged, surrounded by a lot of so-s-so--to great female friends as a princess and expecting to become Queen Consort one day, with the new family she grew with said husband. She is also the one to give her siblings Jaehaerys and Alysanne the eggs of the dragons they have while they are still in their cradles.

That all ends with her uncle usurping her husband, which is ironic because, again, she is the oldest AND she wanted to leave to protect their twins. So we should understand that at one point she came to the idea that her life could have been totally different if she had been Queen/heir apparent, as a succession crisis still occurred.

Then she's forced to marry that same uncle who she probably believes betrayed not only his rightful king but his entire family through the murder of her brother-husband, the "marriage", threatening her daughters, and killing her brother (Viserys). And of course, Maegor would have raped her through the entirety of their forced marriage. Later on, her mother aids Jaehaerys in further passing her over for another son--yes partly for the survival of all her surviving kids, but again it's not so much Alyssa as much as the passing over after all Rhaena was forced to give up (below). Alyssa and Rogar explicitly planned against the possibility of her becoming a regent for one of her daughters (as they both were thought as Aegon's heirs) ["The Year of the Three Brides -- 49 A.C."]:

I don't know if she, in real-time, understood that this was the reasoning behind Rogar & Alyssa's thinking, but either way, she looks like she observed that she was being treated as more of a threat than someone Alyssa gave birth to and someone who would have done anything for her family. Her claim became the thing her family used against her. And she became more and more resentful of the exclusion and "subtle" betrayals/sidelining.

And was it truly Alyssa's fear, or Rogar's, that Rhaena would come back to wrest power through her daughter? Who is the one to try to kidnap Rhaella and force her to "confess" that she is Aerea after he failed to get Aerea or convince the others to back his plans to usurp Jaehaerys? Rogar!

More likely, he convinced Alyssa that this was the case so he'd be more in control and isolate/distance Rhaena from her family. She saw through him before anyone else! ("Prince into King"):

Her and Jaehaerys, his making it clear that she would not gain Dragonstone based on her own autonomous claim to the throne but on his permission as king--have their own sort of betrayal, even though he had his own pressures to show others his strength and authority he could be a "tough but fair" king. Again, she didn't ask for the throne, but the thing that would be given to who is the next in line to the throne.

At this point, Aerea was Jaehaery's heir presumptive (not "apparent"). Jaehaerys had no children and Rhaena had just come from the machinations of the Lannisters--her moving into Dragonstone and being recognized as one with a claim would have given her more power against those seeking to use her. Plus, again, her daughter was considered Jae's heir. Hence, when Jae took that last dignity/remnant of something that could-have-been from Rhaena, she sought to claim back her own daughter...especially since she might have known that Jae would just eventually sideline Aerea if/once he had kids. (From her perspective)

Jaehaerys took her asking for Dragonstone as an indirect challenge to himself (not that she was opposing him so much as her doing it at all reminds others that because she is the eldest of Aenys' children, others around them could advocate or use her despite her being female....just as Rogar tried to when he tried to usurp Jaehaerys), and I think Rhaena was offended by his even thinking to suspect or throw out a hint of accusation. As well as his extra pains to make sure she was his subject and not his equal or peer in the full eyes of everyone. There is where she'd feel humiliated simultaneously.

Yes, Jaehaerys was trying to solidify his place in a time when people doubted him right after defeating Maegor, but it is not about him so much as him distrusting her and wehat it says about the layout of the situation that had him so distrusting of Rhaena in the first place. surely, her being his older sister he would know she was not going to do anyhting unsavory, right? With her history. Doing it purposefully in front of "outsiders" and potential betrayers (Rogar and the other courtier & nobles) looking for any weaknesses--as if she were not family, as if she weren't the one who gave him his egg as a baby as if she'd actually care enough to try to usurp him. Why not talk to her beforehand, get her into a conversation about their plans going forward so he could broadcast his own control?

BECAUSE they were at a juncture in royal Targ history where a woman's claim and thus Rhaena's claim both was still a doable and concievable prospect (Rhaena was just 3rd Gen royal Targ!, 2nd royal-born) just enough leg: for being older, aready having children of her own, being a conssumate rider, and having already had others say she should be the next queen. Even with her already or quickly eschewing said claiom for her peac of mind. Jaehaerys saw her as a threat and treated her as such...when he's the one who's occupying a seat that should/could have been hers. And he knew it, which is why he was bound to have as much control over his female relatives, evident from how he sent his own mother Alyssa to essentially decay under a man who disliked her and ided, then Rhaena with Dragonstone (slight loss on both ends), then obviously with Alysanne, then his own daughters, then waht he did to Princess Rhaenys. This is just the tip of the state of things b/t him, Alyssa, and Rhaena, Alysanne included. It's not about what Rhaena doing ito him so much as he didn't want to lend any room to her...social prestige over his own prestige so the public thinks of him more as a ruler than her.

Thus also strengthening the idea of her symbolic outcast-enemy status to the public. For all Rhaena's self-retreats and brooding, she had much to brood about.

In other words, kinda like Maegor (for it would remind her of Maegor, I think) Jae chose power over family...or really, he was very shortsighted when it came to a problem like this, chose to take advantage of his female relatives while also excluding them from most political decisions and chose the easier, exclusionist way (bc against, he continues this into his death, alienating most of his female family members but also opening the way to the Dance through that exclusion or sidelining).

With Alyssa, his mother becoming his regent and marrying the man who would have usurped him through his connection to Alyssa, I also think that he saw it better for him to consolidate power away from his female relatives bc they could marry men who'd compete with him.

Even with Alysanne, you can see where he reaped the benefit of her intellect, or would have ignored some of her claims and demands if she hadn't been the right kind of insistent (the drinking water of KL).

Her Marriage & Androw's Character

She definitely "cheated" if you define cheating as going out for a partner whilst having another on a monogamous relationship despite only marrying them for security, but I don't really feel she should be shamed in the same way we should shame Robert Baratheon, Aegon II & IV, Aerys II, and just ASoIaF men in general for cheating. I do not care that Cersei cheated on Robert multiple times, she cheats for feelings of safety and affirmation, to have bodily autonomy; he does because he can and feels like it's his male-given entitlement.

Even if Robert didn't abuse Cersei, I wouldn't care about her cheating versus his cheating because Cersei, while she definitely has her ego, cheats to reaffirm the autonomy ignored since childhood AND to try to use her lovers to her own political advantage during her marriage to him. That and how the marriage itself is an arrangement for politics, not for love or intimacy AND women are expected to not practice the same sexual freedoms men do, not even allowed to have their own lovers without ruining their reputations and social value. She also might (and this is a big might) have stayed faithful or devoted to Robert (or at least would feel some guilt in her affairs) if not for his clear preference for Lyanna AND his philandering throughout their marriage. It comes from a need to have the power men have in her society. Again, Robert cheats on Cersei because he just feels like it and thinks he's entitled as a man/king and feels Cersei is second fiddle to a dead girl who wanted nothing to do with him but he'd never accept that if he had known and likely still would have cheated on if they married bc cheating in general for him is a right. Cersei is from the thought that she should have that kind of power, that entitlement, and though she does not, she will claim it and also do it for her kids' sake....too bad that her classism and cruelty far outstrip her own perception of her capabilities.

The other thing is that Rhaena was very likely a lesbian who could sleep with a man if she was "asked nicely" for politics if the husband was pleasant enough, and/or if it benefited a relative as long as it also didn't ruin her autonomy, esp after Maegor. People of the same sex cannot marry each other even in Dorne, and they can't openly live together as a couple. And if she wasn't lesbian, she'd still be a bisexual woman who got her most important and most positive relationships from those with women. When that happens, romance, sexual desire, and platonic love can and often blur. Especially when there is no safe room to really explore/reflect on those feelings in one's youth or adulthood.

And of course, she fell in love with Elissa and wanted to be close to her.

What exactly could she have done except use marriage as her cover? Yeah, that's unfortunate for Androw, who probably thought that she was in it for him and romance (he wasn't very bright, too), but his feelings don't invalidate or erase the conditions I've described nor do they really compare or level with Rhaena's position as a wlw woman. The condition of entrapment for a woman like Rhaena. Esp with her history of family abandoning her, she probably felt she needed to "ensure" being close "enough" to Elissa through marriage to her brother.

Rhaena says this of why she married Androw ("A Surfeit of Rulers"):

I do not think their marriage was ever a real one, in terms of romance or having a close bond ("Birth, Death, and Betrayal"):

Though they began as pleasant acquaintances, she always had stronger love and care for his sister, not him. Rhaena knew that she'd be pressured into remarrying even after Maegor's death to shore up Jaehaerys' (really Rogar's authority and stake in Jaehaerys' rule) own power through connections to specific families. This is why Rogar was angry when she married without his permission.

He even was already choosing people of his own family to arrange a marriage b/t her and them for his own power! ("The Year of the Three Brides-49 A.C."):

So her rationale & goals in marrying Androw: If she had to be married, she would choose the guy who she thought wouldn't make things difficult and oppressive for her, which includes marrying a guy far beneath her powers and rank PLUS an easygoing guy. Remember how she rails at Rogar for basically consigning her mother, Alyssa Velaryon, to death instead of just being happy with the male child she managed to birth to him before? Her disapproval of Jaehaerys for dismissing her with Dragonstone, his castigation of her threatening Franklyn Farman even though he's the one who told her he would just throw out Aerea if she ever appeared just as he did to her. Maegor's forcing her to marry him and raping her for months, the fear she could have lived with all those months.

She did not marry him to love him nor hurt him intentionally, but she married him to avoid marrying a man who could drag her into heated political conflicts and to be closer to Elissa without it causing too much suspicion/to keep female intimacy without suffering patriarchal violence. Androw was placidly kind (in the beginning and what she thought) and didn't ask as much from her as other noblemen would have. Until later...

Androw became (or failed to hide that internalized envy and inferiority complex) the very sort of man she tried to avoid, incel-like. Here is a quote of him and his justification for killing all her friends ("Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I"):

Meanwhile, these are descriptions of Androw as a person both before and a little after his marriage to her:

A lot of emphasis was placed on his:

his lack of really wanting adventure, the opposite of his sister whom Rhaena loved and preferred just as a companion (their incompatibility, not just his inferiority and lack of appeal) -- his incompetence as either a warrior or a "learned" man. going back to the inferiority part, let's be real, how much appeal does a person with no talent NOR any ambition have? If you don't have talent, at least have intelligence or curiosity or ambition. If not the last one, at least some of the others. And he's illiterate so no discussions about stuff they could read, has no hobbies to speak of or that we see. It's not just Rhaena who sees no appeal in him; apart from seeing that he is powerless in Dragonstone bc Rhaena shows her indifference to him, others around Androw have not been his friend or whatever for ALL of his life. Again, he's not that impressive of a person.

And he never seemed to really care or notice this (or expressed such) until people began to really mock and disregard him on these things alone and he was outside of his own birth home, where he'd not really experience people making fun of him probably bc his brother and father would not have allowed it, or he wasn't so much in people's view for them to dwell on his shortcomings.

Mark that part about him spending his time in the room with the Painted Table with the map of Westeros. He started to dream of conquests or those masculinized activities of power and domination.

The women weren't just mocking him without observing a legitimate change in him, as cruel as the book (written by male maesters) tells us they were about it. They were mocking him bc they see him try so hard to grasp power when he has little to no qulaification and has put no real energy when he should have, has enjoyed actually being a kept man before but now wants to act "tough", how ill-suited he is to it--too obviously try to show he's the "boss", the "man"--for not understanding/accepting who has the real power (Rhaena); AND probably bc they are so used to seeing a man have all the power and are enjoying the reversal, their advantage over him.

While one may think that it's understandable and justified for him to want more respect or power in a place where people constantly denigrate him...

again, it was beyond obvious he wanted power bc he wanted respect that he seemed to have never noticed was never there until he moved away from his father's protection--but he had multiple opps to learn to read, ride horses, , etc. and even IF he had some mental disability, he expected others to believe he COULD lead bc he was male. He expected that Rhaena WOULD want more kids and care to allow him her body because he was her husband/a male. Neurodivergent or mentally disabled people do not get an automatic pass for misogyny. (Rhaenyra ruled Dragonstone for years, was beside Viserys for some years before her DRGSTN rule and observed him/the council and at least was appointed a leadership role, so yes she was at least bare min "qualified" in Westerosi standards except for her gender) AND

what he does to get revenge and get back control doesn't match the wrong(s) and was itself misogyny-motivated AND again, he was already turning to the feudalist hypermasculine ideal of violence against women and children as a way towards "dignity"...something that Aemond will grow up as part of his male, princely entitlement in his own mass/spree murders and subjugation in the riverlands.

Mind you, he decided to kill only the women around Rhaena, not any of those men who the maester said also mocked him.

Here are 2 quotes about that ("Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I"):

And this is what he says to her after she is hugging the corpse of her cousin and youngest companion, Lianna Velaryon:

So why is he an incel? Because he feels he is entitled to her time, body, and company even to the moment where he kills all her friends for being her friends and not "respecting" him, though they were never a real couple; like Rogar to Alyssa (who had been castigating her until he finally insults her in front of the council when he proposed usurping Jaehaerys), Androw wants to be the lord to his wife instead of the husband to her "over"-lady. He wanted that traditional, patriarchal dynamic, and what's so absurd is that he expected it after all those months of being married to her...instead of thinking about that before marrying her, when she had been a Queen Dowager and showed her personality at his home island.

Now, this is not to say Rhaena should have let her daughter splash shit water on his head without suitable punishment since he hadn't done anything at that point to either her or Aerea to warrant such anger that the book tells us. It's saying that:

she already grew to distrust men of her not being able to deal w/the sexism...once more, we need to remember that Maegor raped her & threatened her child's life

her distaste for him grew because she couldn't stand his Elissa-like face

there may have been some words b/t them when they fought the two times they fought she could never forgive (we don't know for sure bc we aren't privy to that from the book but it is a possibility)

she suspected him of helping Elissa take Dreamfyre's eggs bc she knew that he was likely to help his own sister, they weren't close themselves, she and Elissa were on the rocks, AND he probably was already showing signs of jealousy at their bond...too eager to establish something she could never have with him

and as a result, she withdrew into her circle of women, those she had always been able to find some sort of substantive emotional support and less unpleasant surprises -- thus her further distancing from him and refusal to really castigate her people from disrespecting him

he either developed an inferiority complex after being mocked OR he always had one but it really got triggered when Elissa's absence made him more aware of how others thought he was out of Rhaena's league and disrespected him on his own lack of those qualities that his society expects of an aristocratic man

Add the boiling pain and betrayal above and you have a person who can't tolerate their husband, another person asking things of her or who w/could.

Retrospectively, I also headcanon that Rhaena felt this envy growing in him whenever they were together and this was one more reason for her to separate herself from him. That he made some sort of demands from her to treat him more like Andal women are expected to treat/think of their husbands as their masters or directors...despite her outranking him (if not in powers but in the title), their seemingly non-close relationship, and his seemingly being fine enough with that to even agree to marry her in the first place.

Androw wasn't a helpless child. He seemed content until they had to leave Fair Isle on his own brother's orders and was more exposed to others' thoughts of his subparness. Despite the rank, Rhaena can't do much for a person who doesn't attempt to self-improve (it's told the maester was the one who tried to get him to at least be more learned). And she felt she shouldn't have to, bc again he wasn't a kid and she probably felt she gave/worked enough for the wrong people.

Rhaena as a Mother

Apparently, or maybe, Rhaena was never a child person. However, remember that this is the same woman who:

begged her brother-husband to run to Essos to take their kids away & protect them from Maegor, specifically stating she prioritized the girls' lives over his claim, the latter of which she had already said she prioritized over her own life

laid her life on the line to protect her two daughters from Maegor by disguising them and voluntarily entering KL/the Red Keep to be married off to him, even with no expressed protest....also accepted the chance she'd be tortured

in her forced wedding, saw that her kids were taken nonetheless and let go of any thoughts of really going against Maegor while they were hostages -- and thus had to live as hostage herself to her uncle for months

spent an entire year or so on Dreamfyre looking for Aerea when she ran off with Balerion or in a sort of guilt-desperate state...in spite of her condemnations of Aerea taking & bonding with her father's "killer" AND before that, yes "raged" but also not being able to sleep after Aerea's disappearance

Adding to how she has spent a long time apart from her own kids for their safety AND was already less inclined to want to interact with kids in general, her kids may have become "less" her own while she brooded over her other family. now you've got a very complicatedly angry and emotionally repressed person as a parent.

Yes, she eventually stifles Aerea in her anger at her siblings and mother, hatred for Rogar and refuses to even consider how the girl feels about her leaving what she thought of as home. Only to ignore her most of the time unless it is to yell at her for her disruptions and troublemaking. And her other daughter tells her that she might not have been a great mom, but she was glad to be her daughter if only to become a septa and "serve" the Mother (one of the Seven).

These are valid conclusions and worth being frustrated with her. I just hope that we're not looking at her as if she were an evil entity for the sake of being that way or because she was "just" selfish. I happen to think she was in the wrong time with the wrong people and no idea of how to get them to really acknowledge her own crap, so she chose to cope by ignoring them and barrel over her own emotions.

She seemed to already have the sort of inclination or predisposition where she compartmentalizes her feelings until the danger passes or when she's insulted. And the more times she gets insulted or put into danger, she claims up and tried to maintain her dignity. When someone asked her why she didn't cry over Aegon's death, how she "coldly" goes through the wedding when Tyanna insults her and brings out her kids, how she talks to Franklyn Farman, how she sullenly warns Jaehaerys about trusting the admiration or regard of the other lords as if she knew he wouldn't listen, and how she points out Jaehaerys' anxiety of her in the same tone.

So with each thing, she became more and more withdrawn while also seeking to keep what she thought she could keep close to her close even if they themselves began to either feel suffocated by her or felt they were losing pieces of their own life (Aerea [being heir presumptive and life built at KL] & Elissa Farman [her dream of being a seas-sailing adventurer]).

And a huge motivation for Elissa to leave Rhaena would have been Rhaena's private hurting her. Why stay & put off your dreams when the person you love has changed so thoroughly as to even (maybe, I headcanon) take it out on you? I don't hate Elissa for leaving Rhaena to start a new life...just for taking the eggs to do it when she knew that it would put Rhaena in a mess with her other family and even could disgrace her in the public eye.

All of Rhaena's self-suppression would come out, built up and vitriolic. And it's important to trace its development so we don't add to that dismissal or misjudge and simplify her.

I also find it fascinating how alike and different Aerea and her are and how they respond to the isolation both experience. Aerea, like Rhaena, grew up expecting to have one of the highest ranks and/or positions of power available in Westeros. Aerea also felt abandoned by her mother when she expresses to Alysanne how she did care her mom's friends died. Aerea also had many friends/acquaintances and was happiest around them. She, like Rhaena, regarded Elissa Farman as one of the most important persons to her and their loneliness, even with Aerea being the one to actually beg Elissa to stay while Rhaena let her leave the second time asking. Both are stubborn and become more and more sullen. And both mistreat others in their loneliness and trying to feel more in control against a relative: Rhaena against Alysanne and Jaehaerys by wanting Aerea back and Aerea throwing poop on Androw as well as pranking and harassing others. Aerea learns from Rhaena, but she eventually just does what Saera hopes she could have done and takes a dragon for her own freedom...tragically ending with her own painful death. While Rhaena did not die as painfully, she does die pretty much alone and miserable in her attempts to get back control. A little less sympathetically as she had more power over Aerea still refused to listen and communicate with her kids, but similar in intentions and thematically. It's also funny how like Jaehaerys she acted here, pushing away a daughter for her own selfish ends to never see them again. At the same time, it was only a matter of time before Aerea was pushed away and out of KL when Jaehaerys finally had children to become his heirs, as many expected and hoped for. As I said in the first section, Aerea was just Jaehaerys' heir "presumptive", not his "apparent" and he seemed very glad to foist her onto Rhaena. What sort of disappointment would Aerea have had if she had stayed and Jaehaerys had kids? Yes, they didn't know that Jaehaerys was fertile and would go on to have many children, but even Maegor would have had kids (if it weren't for Tyanna) the ever-present plans of a monarch and their subjects include children to be their heirs. Whether or not Rhaena felt and anticipated this and acted either for herself or for both her and her daughter or how much she really thought about her daughter's future for its own sake, I believe that it's cool to think about the probability that Aerea would eventually inherit Rhaena's frustrations of being passed over and abandoned, rejected on account of her gender.

Rhaena was a complicated woman. She already didn't have patience with kids but loved her own. She loved her family and was fiercely loyal, but after some abandoned her, she also always tried to claim some dignity for herself and forgot what it was like being a child and/or helpless in the process. Needed a partner who was either as bold or bolder than her, yet used her rank to overpower them into staying with her despite knowing sailing was her dream.

Comparison to HotD!Alicent

Why the comparison? Because I feel someone might bring this up if they took the time to brave my ridiculously long post AND HotD's Alicent also goes through sexual abuse and neglect or abandonment by family. Both's bad problematic behavior toward those they love or have loved comes directly from their abuses, some that stem from societal and familial misogyny. Both do not really consider their friend's/partner's (Rhaenyra and Elissa) needs or desires to feel less lonely or to make power moves. And Alicent of HotD is told to be wlw by some fans, if not lesbian.

However:

HotD Alicent is not well thought out as a character and has more internalized misogyny than Rhaena. Rhaena does not hurt her lover nor wife from wanting to deny her own womanhood, Rhaena has shown to be quite the opposite of a misogynist (threat to Rogar).

HotD!Alicent empowers her male relatives to hurt more people because she feels she has to as a woman basically totally succumb to patriarchal ideology even in her sending that damned note to Rhaenyra, while canon!Rhaena has been trying to keep and get power for herself in spite of the men around her.

Rhaena is not a simple queerbait wlw character, her relationships with women are not queerbait: her sexuality is believable as presented and her relationship with Elissa Farman is obvious because of the background information for both, how they got together, how Rhaena came into her own, why they were attracted to each other...it all is well written, coherent, consistent, and comprehensive.

She is smarter than HotD!Alicent and more aware of the motivations of others around her, and the politics around her as well.

Finally, Rhaena's core motivations remain clear and consistent. No compromising of self-respect while searching for constant, mutual love from her peers.

In other words, Rhaena's life and psychology are written way better and comprehensively than HotD!Alicent's AND she has way less internalized misogyny than Alicent.

Quotes

#1 ("The Sons of the Dragon")

#2 ("The Sons of the Dragon")

#3 ("The Sons of the Dragon")

#4 ("Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I") & ("Jaehaerys and Alysanne -- Their Triumphs and Tragedies")

#5 Rhaena & Jaehaerys about Dragonstone and Aerea ("A Time of Testing"):

#6 And then we have this moment of Rhaena seeing her daughter again after Maegor's gone ("Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I"):

#7 Her against Rogar and the Succession ("A Surfeit of Rulers"):

#8 Finally, what she says to Alysanne when she suggested taking Aerea back to KL ("Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I"):

[horizon-verizon]

Book!Rhaenys never went on a rampage and attacked other women who were in the same situation she was in, but I can imagine Rhaena Targ (with how bitter she became towards the end of her life)discreetly enjoying Alyssnne trying to get her daughter and granddaughter named heirs while Jaehaerys covered her ears. I can imagine her discreetly saying "it's hard, isn't it?" With false sympathy after all she and Aerea were conveniently overlooked and forgotten.

[horizon-verizon]

I hate how one of Rhaena major grumbles was being passed over inheriting the throne in favor of Jaehaerys, and complain that everyone, including her own mother, had conspired to take away her right to the crown. This is despite her never showing much interest in ruling herself, just being bitter about how her life turned out. No one ever suggests she might’ve been a better ruler than Jaehaerys, not even her.

She didn’t seem to understand the people around her and was actually very self-centered, which helped contribute to her sorrows later in life. Elissa Farman, who repeatedly asked for permission to leave Dragonstone, only for Rhaena to refuse because she was so possessive and could not bear to see her leave, until Elissa got fed up and left anyway. Her husband Androw Farman was so bitter about being a beard and being regularly mocked by everyone that he murdered all the women he could that she might care about. She forced her daughter Aerea to stay on Dragonstone and forbid her from returning to her aunt and uncle’s court at King’s Landing where Aerea had been happiest. Aerea so hated being stuck at Dragonstone with no friends and nothing to do that she flew off with Balerion and died horribly. Rhaena wails that she gave birth to a monster when Aerea ran off, ignoring the pretty big detail that Aerea ran off because of her awful parenting.

Responding to this post.

I already wrote what I thought in the post anon is responding to about why Rhaena acts as she does about her claim and to her kids. I stated that it's not really about her ambition to become Queen or thinking she'd be a better ruler. It's about being treated as either a threat or someone to take care of. I also said that she spent a year looking for Aerea (yes too late, but the point is that there are layers there, reasons why she is the way she is), and that her interest in ruling may form after having seen how much she lost to others violence and machinations--compensation. Details are in the post.

It's not that Rhaena wasn't mistreating Aerea and didn't become bitter with each year, hurting those around her in her anger and loneliness. It's that I fear we could slip into disregarding how she became that way to just set aside that context and label her as just a bad person.

I've often seen some fans describe characters like Rhaena as "whiny" or "unrealistic", "spoiled" and "self-centered", kinda like with Rhaenyra, Aerea, Saera, etc. Characters who do have some of those qualities but somehow a lot of their other characteristic or their backgrounds are eschewed for main criticism for their failure to be the ideal mother, wife, daughter-subject to a parent. I don't really like it. Most of the issues Rhaena had or where her bitterness came from were systematic, hierarchial, feudalist misogyny.

One point of all of these characters is to show how women are told and taught to be very self-sacrificing to those around them to the detriment of their own health and dignity while men and boys can get away with literal murder. That women are also people who commit errors believing that they are doing the best they can for themselves and/or some others, subject to abuse but even more so under patriarchies. To show the results of patriarchal abuses, and the compulsions they place on women regardless of how motherly or independent-thinking they are.

And, respectfully to him, fuck Androw. As I said in that post, he was the quiet incel. And a murderer of a teen girl.

[horizon-verizon]

I will be uploading a series of photo-videos on TikTok about Rhaena Targaryen, the rider of Dreamfyre, Queen Dowager, Aerys I's first child, Jaehaerys & Alysanne's older sister, and Maegor's niece-wife he made into one of his "Black Brides".

It first started as one video about her, but I should have known it would require more than two videos. As it is, it's still a lot of words in some slides for Tiktok users, but who knows, maybe soem people will fill that niche, my corner?

[horizon-verizon]

Focusing Again on Jaehaerys-Rhaena-Aerea and What Aerea Meant to Alysanne and Jaehaerys

Alysanne, at 12-13 (Maegor's end) was young enough to misguidedly follow her mother, Alyssa Velaryon, in believing that Jaehaerys was the necessary component over Rhaena. But she continued to benefit from Jaehaerys being King over Rhaena being Queen Regnant, as she became Queen Consort and any and all of her kids by Jaehaerys would be heirs. Even a few being King, or if she got her way, a Queen Regnant.

Which makes her the obvious displeasure of Viserra *wanting to become Queen Consort by marrying the grieving Baelon funnier.*

And Rhaena is the case of a person who relies on power when trust and love is lost, betrayed, or denied, which easily transitioned into possessiveness. As in after she's betrayed or abandoned by family, she clung to her daughter to the point that said daughter ran away from her after sinking into despair.

Aerea and Rhaena were both Jaehaerys' competitors by being other claimants for the throne, since Rhaena is the oldest of Jaehaerys' siblings and Aerea is her oldest available child. Aerea was also Maegor's heir at the time when he was trying for his own children, while publicly disinheriting Jaehaerys in the same decree.

Jaehaerys essentially had the power, status, rank, and position they would have/could have had.

That paints a picture of his obvious threatenedness of female rulers/leaders/movers and shakers or those above himself:

again, the Dragonstone event as well (QUOTE right below this list)

his condemnations for her words against Franklyn Farman +meanwhile he threatened Rogar Baratheon with Vermithor, doesn't matter that it was suggestive, he did it (QUOTE right below this list)

Rhaena "allowing" Elissa Farman to take dragon eggs and making her out to be incompetent and a burden on him...the same person who gave him his dragon egg to bond with and supported him to keep the throne he has

QUOTE OF DRAGONSTONE TROUBLE

QUOTE OF RHAENA VS FRANKLYN FARMAN AND J'S REACTION

Jaehaerys was all for making sure to everyone else that Rhaena's claim was invalid -- of a power and position he already had. Her daughter is a continuation of that female Targ love of freedom and want of autonomy that Rhaena had (she really came into herself after bonding with her own Dreamfyre at around 13), and that Jaehaerys characterized as a threat to his authority in the Dragonstone "bartering".

Meanwhile Rhaena had already did not pursue the throne, only wanting to support Jaehaerys when he declared his own claim and defiance against Maegor, risking her and Aerea's life by escaping on Dreamfyre and Blackfyre, similar to how Alyssa Velaryon, their mother, risked herself by escaping with Jaehaerys and Alysanne. Her protests were more about how she was never considered as serious as heir (check out Alyssa Velaryon note at bottom) and that Rogar was listened to above her, when the man did not rush to support their older brother, Aegon the Uncrowned, when Maegor usurped him, and whom Rhaena forever was wary of. Rogar, someone proven later to have been willing to betray Jaehaerys and them all. Funny how Rhaena had a good, obvious reason to not care for Rogar (besides the million other things before his plot) that Jaehaerys dismissed even as he didn't punish those Maegor's men who Rogar advised being merciful to (who also, ironically not so ironically turned to lead a mutiny against the Nights Watch and cause Walton Stark's death, earning Jaehaerys the everlasting dislike and distrust of Alaric Stark, his brother). That a person like Rogar had been given more faith, respect, trust. Only Rhaena had warned Jaehaerys about depending too much on these lords being appeased more than what he needs to do for his own reign -- not letting these traitors live for the sake of appeasing those lords that surrounded KL and setting that example.

And perhaps this is where Jaehaerys' constant compromising with the Andal patriarchal hegemony began -- to secure what he thought supported his own hold on power, but ended up compromising Targ hold on power in exclusive male succession/Disempowerment of female Targs.

Rhaena merely wanted to have her own dominion that no one can negate using her independent political right through her being the eldest of Aenys' children. Her claiming Dragonstone as her own and not as Jaehaerys's bestowment came with that want for autonomy and protection from ambitious, greedy folk like the Lannisters and Rogar.

So Jaehaerys abjected and abandoned Rhaena, or estranged her from himself. Rhaena, who did not press for her own claim before her younger brother-husband Aegon and while loving autonomy also loved her friends, lovers, and family and valued them highly (not in spite of, but because of her introvertedness). Once more, this is the woman who gave the same guy a dragon egg when he was a baby so that he could bond with one from birth and not have to wait for that connection that she had experienced later in her preteens, before which she had been described as a child with less self-assuredness. Dragonriding changes her for the better, and she wants the same for her younger siblings.

Alysanne, to Rhaena, was a person who also replaced her, or "took" Queenship from Rhaena, as Rhaena said when Alysanne suggested moving Aerea back to KL seeing Aerea unhappy at being away from all that she grew up with in KL. Even by being Queen Consort to Rhaena's Queen Dowager and Queen in the West, Rhaena doesn't have the social priority & abilities that she w/could have had if Alysanne had not been made Queen Consort, since Aly could only have been made QC if her husband was King, which Jaehaerys became. But again, it didn't seem to be about power for Rhaena as much was it was about not being alone after all the tragedy and defying Jaehaerys.

After Maegor, Aerea was Jaehaerys' unofficial heir. Of which the little girl was very well aware of, took pride in with all of the luxuries and companions and ladies that came with it until Daenerys was born and Rhaena took her back.

Rhaena knew that Aerea's time would never come, so perhaps taking Aerea back was, in her way, of protecting her while also reclaiming a lost bond. However it was Rhaena also defying Jaehaerys and his council, and his refusal to listen to her and Alyssa about Maegor's men's punishments.

But it still was a huge break from Aerea's previous status, and her life with Rhaena was very unhappy for a minute, with Rhaena not really understanding how to reconnect with her own daughter from her own anger at her losses (relationships wise and political power) all estranged Aerea more.

And Aerea became, herself, just as lonely as Rhaena, with her own cabal of "unruly" girls. Similarly to Saera, Aerea wanted to be recognized, be a part of a group, be heard, and have more autonomy, which her past unofficial heir position granted her.

Like Jaehaerys, Alyssa Velaryon, in her own way, abandons Rhaena, and it was for Jaehaerys. For the person who fits the Andal preferences for succession in Alyssa's bid to destroy Maegor and protect all of her kids. Unfortunately it still has its consequences despite the intention.

This user, ajollybirdcollector, points out:

She had a complicated relationship with her mother, Alyssa Velaryon. Rhaena was resentful that Alyssa supported her siblings’, Jaehaerys and Alysanna, claim to the throne above hers. Alyssa had been deeply offended that Rhaena did not inform her or invite her to her third marriage. Rhaena was upset that her mother got remarried to Lord Baratheon, who had remained passive when her brother-husband Aegon was at war with Maegor, and did not attend the wedding. However, when she learned that her mother was on her deathbed after a difficult pregnancy and birth, Rhaena rushed to Storm’s End on her dragon to make amend with her but arrived too late. Rhaena threatened to personally kill Lord Baratheon if he ever was to marry another woman after her mother.

And from the book:

More mother-daughter estrangement that would have informed Rhaena’s own with Aerea, but didn’t erase her need to have her close and away from those who “took” her titles and abandoned her. And it was not just a history of mother-daughter trouble, since this concerned the succession and where the mom-daughter trouble began. The passage above states that over time Rhaena grew resentful of the power that was taken from her and her daughters. This is more about them all being excluded from politics and again not being trusted on account of Andal customs' that Jaehaerys wanted to benefit from. While I listed what will seem to many are emotional, individual, personal reasons for how Jaehaerys messes up through Rhaena, I am trying to point out how connected family ties are to politics in this sort of feudal world and how messing those up, "even" concerning female members, endangers you to making the house more vulnerable to other house's manipulations or threats. Because Jaehaerys entrusted his authority and legitimacy in compromising too much with the patriarchal system that he ruled and did not begin to create a news sort of system by modifying the old through his own will and knowledge of the much less restrictive Valyrian customs. He sought to Garner more power for himself, isolated female members of his house and made them more vulnerable to abuses AND in manipulating things toward male primogeniture, weakening his entire house's grasp on power after he had gone. Opening up the succession to women would have provided numerically more politically competent persons for a stronger house, because if women were expected to rule they'd have proper military/political/strategy training. Take that away and you have a situation like Aerys II and Rhaella. Rhaella, who could have contributed security by having more power if it has been given and trusted with.

The previous unity between Rhaena, Rogar Baratheon, Jaehaerys, and Alyssa Velaryon that occurred to topple Maegor quickly fell apart due to:

the over compromising with the lords (Rogar represents their Andal patriarchal hegemony and privilege)

Jaehaerys not trusting Rhaena enough or dismissing her concerns and moves for power, seeing them as threats against his own

Rogar's having too much of a hand at the Trag succession by blocking Rhaena and no one seeing danger in that...he was made Hand....

Jaehaerys and Alysanne's elopement, as what Gyldayn thinks but is not exactly true (ironically Jaehaerys is like Saera in this way, as marrying Alysanne is not only what he truly wanted because fell for her but because it was him following Targ custom to ensure having dragonriding children from his POV , this is a form of power grabbing as well as sexual rebellion and how Jaehaerys' anger at Saera mirrors Rogar's too-entitled anger at him for that sexual rebellion) but rather exposed what each person felt they were entitled to and what power each person wanted to have for themselves and against another

and Alyssa's indulgence/capitulations to Rogar

The time apart--before the war was made against Maegor after Jaehaerys declared--enabled the fracture, as they lost contact. I assume that Jaehaerys felt it easier to dismiss Rhaena because they hadn't actually been together for several months after Maegor ruled and a few years before he ruled.

Feeling that Alysanne understood all of this to an extent after visiting them on Dragonstone, I think her blaming Rhaena is disappointing but unsurprising. And her following labeling of Aerea as that sort of "cursed, unruly child" is her remembering that layered conflict she and Jaehaerys had with Rhaena and Jaehaerys' anxiety with Aerea's major act of defiance.

Which has also revealed to them all, or suggested before all of them doubled down again, how discordant and fractured their family really became. And to Jaehaerys, how little control Jaehaerys actually had over them and his image of power. Their post-Maegor discord set up the division and lack of unity in Jaehaerys' and Alysanne's brood: Aemond and Baelon and Alyssa as non-unit of three and a real unit of two and the "womb"; Viserra vs Saera, and all the rest who did not search for power of either the military or political sort.

A ghost from Alysanne's troubled and partly guilty past, she saw in Saera.

“Quick” Note on Alysanne and her Children *EDITED*

Growing up and raising children more and more within the confines of the castle and royal court, where the customs would be observed and practiced more, Alysanne also grew to mentally and habitually adopt ideas and behaviors more than before Jaehaerys took the throne back.

Because Alysanne did seem to have terrible relationships with her daughters while expressing dread with a few’s willfulness (the post I’m responding to): 

Viserra: Alysanne not liking that she actively tried to pursue Baelon to become Queen, and Viserra not wanting the marriage with Manderly but being betrothed forcefully anyway without so much as a real conversation

her & Jaehaerys being responsible for Daella’s wanting to marry a too-old man over an Old-Gods worshipper like Royce Blackwood who was closer in age – religious/extra-patriarchal/Faith-based parenting from the more submissive Alyssa Velaryon

Maegelle turning out better and the “lucky” one, but still heavily influenced into not really seeing the rift between Alysanne and Jaehaerys as indicative of something greater than just disagreement

Saera, her whole life being compared to the dead and “unmanageable” Aerea and ending up (at first) in danger in the sex trade of Essos

Alyssa being allowed to be pregnant too young or not allowed to take breaks to heal/build up strength and Alysanne thinking more for Baelon than her, even with her mentioning how Alyssa followed Baelon around – again, pattern of Targ women/wives of Targs giving birth to many children too frequently (Alyssa V, Alysanne, Alyssa T!)

Gael not being allowed to really grow on her own away from Alysanne because Alysanne sought her as an emotional crutch, thus Gael not having enough inner strength, self esteem, or perception to survive after her lover seduces and leaves her

And the fact that Jaehaerys thought to allow their daughters to have any sort of political/military education or training as Visenya and Rhaenys surely did, which I suspect Alysanne doesn’t fight harder for because she already doesn’t have much political power compared to Visenya and Rhaenys.

Alysanne constantly compares Saera to Aerea, as if it were a bad thing. Implying that Saera was too “willful” and hard to manage…which admittedly shows that Alysanne still has this bit of prejudice (and internalized misogyny) towards women and girls who display noncompliance and nonquietness despite her castigating Rhaena for disparaging the absent Aerea and her taking out Balerion and running away…Alysanne saying that Aerea was “just a child” to Rhaena’s “what kind of monster” she brought to life who would take the dragon who killed her father (Aegon the Uncrowned) of all the dragons she could have claimed. A frustrated rage of a person who didn’t get to really raise her own daughters for the sake of their survival but never bonded with them properly afterward.

All because she seemed to know that Jaehaerys would not accommodate such a personality or expressiveness for power from his daughters. By how he treats Rhaena, knowing that she has some claim by being the eldest, he purposefully made her display her submission to him before he have her Dragonstone to live in. Even though she already supported his coming into power without asking for anything else. All of which shows Jaehaerys’ anxiety of female power and leadership, even that coming from his daughters.

Then there is the fact she didn’t do anything more to make Jaehaerys reconsider not killing Braxton Beesbury right in front of their daughter even after she escaped the first time…because her escaping shouldn’t preclude trying to save her from emotional trauma like that and Saera really didn’t deserve being isolated and pusnished as she was for sleeping with different men at once. We just brushed right past her hurting Tom turnip, her bullying Daella like these were nothing and focused on her sleeping with other boys for attention and feelings of control…sure. Again, because Jaehaerys – being the final authority AND having a stubborn streak when it came to male exclusive power – she concedes to get some lesser form of power for herself and that of her kids – what happens with Daella. So what happens to their kids are both her and J’s faults, but it seems from the sociopolitical power that J has over his relatives, his ability to use it against them, and his willingness to do so for his own benefit, that it is mostly J’s fault.

He has made the environment where everything hinged on his determination of whether or not the new “problem” would endanger his image and authority. And Alysanne was the responder, the victim, as well as the perpetuator.

It looks like Alysanne also inherited troubles with daughters that she rebuked and blamed Rhaena for. More than Rhaena does Aerea, though Alysanne abjects Saera into a monstrous feminine figure all throughout her childhood (while Rhaena’s treatment of Aerea is arguably more sympathetic since Rhaena’s *trauma* at Mageor’s hands and her separation from her daughter, her daughter growing apart from her in that separation. A separation where they both lived conscious lives apart and long enough for them to be near strangers to each other).

How did Alysanne go from defending Aerea to her mother for claiming a dragon and running away to calling her Aerea-like with anxiety…and then had her own broken relationship with said daughter end with her also trying to run away on dragonback?! (Rhetorical)