#plus he was already being manipulated by palpatine throughout all that and he was a soldier during it too

[sobi-fans]

Thoughts on TROS

So I’ve received a few asks asking about my thoughts on The Rise of Skywalker, and I haven’t replied because I have many thoughts and I’m still processing stuff. But yesterday @riselioness messaged me to ask the same, so I thought it was time to try and organise them on a page.Yes, I am very, very late to this party. 

Obviously spoilers, so I’ll put it under a cut. Also, I’ve only seen the movie once, and that was back in December, so my memory might be a little hazy. I probably need to see it again.

For the sake of context, I have no OTP for the sequel trilogy, but I have been known to read Reylo and Damerey on occasion. (And randomly Gingerflower – aka Hux/Rose – purely because of that TLJ deleted scene where she bites him!) Let me tell you, being on the outside of the shipping wars has been very interesting, and it seems abundantly clear to me that your enjoyment of TROS depends greatly on who you ship, or whether you ship at all. I would have been happy if Finnrose endured or Stormpilot became a thing, but ah well. Onwards!

I’ll try and keep this somewhat cohesive, but I feel like it’s going to be all over the place. Apologies.

Let’s start simple. Stuff I liked that doesn’t have a ‘but’ attached:

- Lando (where’s he been all this time?)

- Wedge (where’s he been all this time?)

- Finn being able to show his individuality with clothing and hair that’s his choice

- Purely for shallow reasons, Poe’s outfit

- Poe and Rey channelling Han and Leia with their bickering at the start

- The Force bond stuff was visually stunning with the dual locations

- Luke’s expression after he raises the X-wing, like ‘Yeah, finally nailed it!’

- Ben Solo channelling his father – also Adam Driver in general for making Ben so very different from Kylo with just body language and facial expressions alone. He literally moved like a huge weight had been lifted from him, and it was pretty amazing to watch

- The fact that Rey’s mother is Villanelle from Killing Eve

- Kaydel looking like Endor Leia at the end

- LGBTQ representation!

- Seeing young Luke and Leia

The stuff with Leia was very poignant and emotional, but I can’t exactly say it was good. It’s tricky. I don’t feel like I’ve separated Leia from Carrie in my mind, so it’s really hard to look at it objectively. I do know that when Chewie howled after Leia’s death, I teared up pretty much immediately!

I have mixed feelings about the trio interaction. Don’t get me wrong, it was nice to see them together, and I love their banter, BUT it felt incredibly forced. Shoving them together for the sake of them being together does a disservice to all three characters. This was the last movie. They should all have been developing their individual stories at that point. Rey with her Jedi stuff, (which she does get to go off and do, but not without Finn traipsing after her like a lost puppy), Poe finding his feet as a leader of the Resistance, and Finn doing literally anything else other than running after Rey yelling her name all the time.

There was a lot of stuff that I wanted to like, but mostly it came across as missed opportunities. Such as:

- Jannah and the other former stormtroopers – this would have been such an interesting idea to develop, and would have given Finn a cool storyline of his own that didn’t involve Rey. I would have liked to see Finn reaching out to current stormtroopers, persuading them that they had other options. That would have been cool. A stormtrooper revolution turning the tide of the final battle!

- Finn’s Force sensitivity – where did this come from? Okay, so maybe it was hinted at in TFA, but it wasn’t carried over to TLJ, and JJ should have respected that in the interest of cohesive storytelling. And as interesting as it could have been to see, it doesn’t take any strength away from Finn to have him not be Force sensitive.

- Hux being the spy – this is such an interesting idea, and it’s hilarious to me that he would go to such lengths to be petty towards Kylo, but it was executed in a rush, much like a lot of other stuff in this movie. They could have made Rose his handler, which would have been a nice change in their dynamic after TLJ.

Stuff I did not like: (warning, rants ahead)

- Completely unnecessary new characters – elaborated below

- Pryde – what was the point of him? Hux could have easily fulfilled that role if they didn’t want to develop his spy storyline.

- Zorri – could have been cool, but seemed shoehorned in to remind us that Poe Dameron is straight, thank you very much!

- Poe being a former spice runner – just why? Poe already had a perfectly good back story.

- Palpatine being back – I know opinions vary on this, but I’m not a fan. Doesn’t it just cheapen Anakin’s entire story arc? (This is not to take anything away from Ian McDiarmid’s performance, which was amazing as always.) Also the complete lack of a reasonable explanation for how he returned. In fact, doesn’t someone even use the word ‘somehow’ at some point?

- Rey Palpatine – again, I know opinions vary, but I hated this so much. I’ve been team Rey No One since the beginning! This is our first female protagonist, and in my opinion the thought that she came from completely humble beginnings was fascinating. To link her to a powerful name – a powerful male name, at that – and for it to be literally stated that her power comes from him was just kind of deflating, to be honest. Also, it makes no sense. Are we expected to believe that Luke there-is-good-in-Vader Skywalker writes off his own nephew because of his potential darkness but is A-OK being a mentor to Rey Palpatine?

- Leia knowing that Rey is a Palpatine – this makes no sense either to me. Leia accepts and nurtures Rey despite her bloodline, sensing that there is good in her, yet thinks that her own son is irredeemable? The sense of ‘we had a bad child, but we found a better one’ is just…ugh. And this happens throughout the ST, even with all the Jedi standing behind Rey having abandoned Ben for years. Even if you believe that Rey is more deserving of that attention, the callousness just doesn’t seem very Jedi-like to me.

- Leia’s reasons for giving up her Jedi training made no sense.

- The sidelining of Rose – it seems painfully clear that JJ had no idea what to do with her character, so she’s just kind of…there. I refuse to believe that they couldn’t have come up with something, even if it was just her accompanying Finn or Poe on their storylines. That wouldn’t have given her a whole lot of agency, but it would have been something.

- Rey ending up alone on a desert planet, exactly where she started. Yes, I know she’s likely not going to live there, but visually the movie is showing us that nothing has really changed. We know Rey wants a family, and the hug with Finn and Poe was lovely to see, but to have the last image of her be her alone on a desert planet is actually kind of depressing.

- Rey calling herself a Skywalker – like the Palpatine thing, it’s linking her to someone else’s legacy. I think it would have been more powerful for her to declare herself ‘Just Rey’. No one’s on at Finn to declare his surname, are they?

Now on to the big one. Bendemption and Reylo.

I have been hoping for Bendemption from the beginning, because redemption, compassion and forgiveness were key themes of the OT for me. But I had a feeling that if Kylo did get redeemed, he’d be doomed to die, because as we know, JJ likes to follow the exact same patterns that we’ve already seen before. I have issues with Vader’s ‘redemption’ on the grounds of it being a ridiculously quick turnaround, (quicker than Kylo’s, even), plus he gets an easy way out just returning to the Light and then dying straight after. Lo and behold, the exact same thing happens here. What would have been really interesting to see, in my opinion, is Ben living to atone for what he’s done. That would have been true redemption, and I think the same is true for Anakin too.

Now, as we know, Kylo is much worse than Vader, even though Vader spent literally half his life on the Dark Side, murdered thousands of people, including children, chopped off his son’s hand, tortured his daughter and her future husband. We know this because Kylo killed Han Solo, the fanboys’ favourite. Therefore, he is much worse, despite only having been on the Dark Side for about six years after being mentally manipulated from birth by the most evil man in existence. Don’t get me wrong, I am not apologising for Kylo. I’m aware he did terrible things, hence why Ben should have lived to atone, but I do believe that he gets an unfair level of hatred, largely stemming from killing Han.

As mentioned above, I have occasionally delved into Reylo fics to see what was out there. I’ve always been a supporter of watching their story play out, because enemies to lovers was something new for a Star Wars movie, and it’s a cool idea to explore. We’d previously seen it with Luke and Mara in Legends. (Mara, incidentally, being someone who was redeemed and lived to make up for her bad deeds.) I loved Ben Solo for the short amount of time we got to see him. The interactions between him and Rey over the bond were so cool to watch. Ultimately, though, I don’t feel like their story was particularly well handled in this movie. I buy it because Adam and Daisy were so brilliant, but I can’t help but feel that Ben’s death was a giant cop-out.

I have mixed feelings about Rey facing Palpatine alone. I can see that there’s some kind of strength to her battling alone there. (Except she wasn’t, because she had every Jedi standing metaphorically behind her.) That said, to have Ben out of the fight felt…weird. Since TFA certain people have said that Rey and Ben/Kylo were two halves of one protagonist, which makes me think that he should have been present there instead of tossed into a pit. Also, after the mental mind games that Palpatine has been playing for his entire life, he pretty much deserved to be. But I don’t know. I think I need to watch it again and see how I feel.

This ended up being super long and ranty, sorry. I’ve probably missed a lot. Maybe I’ll change my mind on a few things when I see it again. I thought writing this out might help to organise my thoughts, but I’m not sure it has!

[jenniferladybug]

Essay Wars - it’s a doozy

Last night my friend got in a texting debate about the story structure and character developments of Star Wars (a majority of it Kylo Ren). Well, what started off as my vigorous texting writing turned into full-blown essay responses. 

Alright, let’s get into how this actually happened.

First, I was so excited about The Rise of Skywalker Final Trailer and I began to sing praises for Kylo Ren/Bendemption. My friend did not like that...so I whipped out the big guns. 

I began to send scattered texts about certain things, mostly pertaining to:

Kylo Ren was turned to the dark side before he was even born via Bloodline, where Leia describes a dark presence over her womb.

Someone must be impersonating Darth Vader when Kylo goes to the Vader mask for advice.

Leia and Han were emotionally neglectful/did not know how to raise their son in the right way, mixed with brainwashing lead to Kylo Ren.

The Jedi are not good for the galaxy (yes, yes I know, but see my explanation down below...if you last that long)

Kylo wants to let the past die and start fresh with a new ‘order’, leave behind the Sith, Jedi, First order etc.

I also rambled on about a few other things in separate texts, but that is the gist of it.

So, in response to my scattered texts I received this from my friend Sammy, and oh boy was I ready:

So, let’s start with the story of Ben. The dark side since before he was even born thing is interesting and the fact that he’s been influenced his entire life by it is something they should have made much more clear in the films. That’s actually one of the problems I have with this new expanded universe- it just seems like damage control for the movies. The Previous EU EXPANDED everything, giving backstory to the characters we know and understand, in addition to secondary characters. Hell, they even gave us new characters as well but they never negated or changed the meaning of the films which is the bread and butter of the franchise, so if this super important info is coming from the book I think that’s just silly. You really shouldn’t have to read the novel iteration to understand what the movie did a bad job of interpreting. But I digress, that is some crucial info…

The Vader mask scene and the theory that it’s someone else like Snoke who has been pretending to be Vader is interesting, and I buy that, but like…Kylo didn’t know Vader was redeemed? Did Luke, Leia, Han, Chewy, Lando, Akbar, Wedge, or like literally anybody else form the Rebellion forget to tell him that? Big yikes.

IMO, feeling “misunderstood and neglected by his parents” isn’t a valid excuse for him to kill his own dad and being ok with his mom getting bombed to hell. Idk, you can ask why it’s ok for us to forgive Vader through his redemption arc but I think comparing his experiences to Kylo’s is like comparing apples to oranges. Vader was a BAD guy, but he ended up doing the ultimate GOOD thing in the end, and then the prequels fleshed out how he became bad intangible way, which to be fair, Kylo doesn’t have. But still, this is why most fans don’t take him seriously.

About the Jedi not being good- I challenge your credentials. “For a thousand generations the Jedi knights have been the guardians of peace and justice for the Old Republic”, then they were hunted down and everything turned to shit. And both in this canon and the previous one, it’s wildly considered that the few thousand years preceded the events of the movies things were super peaceful all things considered when the Jedi were in charge…and the Sith traditionally only operates in agents of 2. So how come everything was so peaceful for a thousand generations when there were a million Jedi and 2 Sith…ying yang in this case is bollocks.

And if Kylo really wants to “Start fresh”, why’d he start by becoming Supreme Leader of like the Star Wars version of ISIS? This is something we’ll need to find out in this next movie. I agree, his motive is to dismantle the Jedi and Sith way and create something else entirely, but the second Rey says “nah” he goes back to how he was. It’s not looking good.

The George Lucas rhyme thing lets not forget he’s talking about Episode 1 which was arguably one of the worst Star Wars movies made and he ended it with “hopefully it’ll work” and then grimaces…IDK bud lmao. And I doubt back in 1977 he knew there was going to be an episode 9 because he didn’t even know what he just made was Episode 4! It definitely was never a 9 episode arc from the get-go. Now, I know for certain after the prequels he had another trilogy in mind, and when he sold the rights to Disney he did hand them his drafts and notes, but even Bob Iger, CEO of Disney, admitted in his new book, they didn’t follow those drafts AT ALL. LIKE NOTHING. And he said that George felt betrayed. This idea of a new trilogy is something that was created in 2012, but I suspect they have been making this up as they went. After this last movie, Disney scrambled to get JJ Abrams back and figure out how they were going to get everything back on track. Daisy Ridley herself said JJ wrote a story for each of the 3 new movies, but Rian ended up created his own completely. I think that alone shows that production for these movies has been inconsistent, I don’t buy this was all part of some 9 series plan with a definitive beginning, middle, and end from the get-go.

Not sure what Rey’s lineage is, we’ll find out for sure in this next movie. I read one theory that Palpatine created her sorta through the force like many people think he did with Anakin.

So that was what I was up against.

Let’s take a brief moment to appreciate this:

Okay now that that is done...great. 

My turn! 

Now, I wrote my response (copied below) at top speed in about an hour, so maybe some of the things I say start sounding rushed or not as fleshed out as they should be. But I cracked my knuckles and gave it a go:

I am the first one to advocate for a film to have the ability to ‘stand-alone’ in any particular universe, whether it be Marvel, DC, Hunger Games, and Star Wars. By introducing a backstory for Leia’s pregnancy and hers and Han’s marriage in ‘Bloodline’, LucasFilm is doing just that: giving a backstory. In both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, there is proof that Snoke is the one pulling the strings when it comes to young solo. In the first film, Leia is quoted saying to Han, “There’s still light in him I know it! No. It was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side”, and in the second film Luke is quoted as saying, “Snoke had already turned his heart”. It is made apparent that ‘Kylo Ren’ is the production of Snoke, and Ren suffers abuse both mental and physical from his master. Though this changes when Kylo finally becomes free of the shackles Snoke once had on him when Ren slices him in half. The look of shock and release on Ren’s face when he realizes what he’s done says it all. Who are we to judge someone who is freshly out of the control of their captor? By just watching the films it is clear that Kylo Ren is not fully in control of his actions and he is being manipulated consistently as shown by the quotes above. When having that manipulation in conjunction with the neglect of a parental figure, then you get the full-blown reality that is Kylo Ren.

Feeling “misunderstood and neglected by his parents” is a valid excuse for turning to the Darkside in the world of a fictional fairy tale. Keep in mind we are not in a reality where this is okay, yet the world in which Star Wars exists allows such things to be redeemable and explainable. Take for example when Padme knew about Anakin killing younglings; she wanted him to still come home because she ‘loved’ him. If he had turned back to the light at that moment she would have most likely accepted him back. It is a danger of the force. They are not dealing with everyday normal emotions; the force, as well as the genre of the franchise, creates a heightened sense of urgency which is apparent throughout the forty-plus years Star Wars has been around (hell, as long as any fairy tale has been around). When you point out that Vader did the ultimate good thing in the end, do you mean to save his son and push Palpatine down a duct? If so, then this would be his redemption which occurred in the last of the original trilogies. If you are to treat Kylo with the same rules as Vader, then we must give him a chance to ‘do the right thing’, something which the filmmakers have been steadily building his character-arc for. Vader did numbers ‘wrong’ things, some of them much worse than Kylo has done. But yet the audience still chose to respect him, even before the prequels which fleshed out the story of Anakin Skywalker.

Now, you may be correct in that Ben Solo knew of Vader’s redemption, and I misspoke, to which I am sorry. He, in fact, learned of his heritage when he was training with Luke at his academy when he received a letter from his mother. The contents of the letter are unknown, though it is assumed she told him of his heritage when he was in his late teens. This was only because one of her rivals she was campaigning against in the senate threatened to leak the knowledge to the public that Leia was the daughter of the infamous Darth Vader. Ben had no idea before-hand though, so once again we assume that this had some type of impact. Imagine finding out your grandfather was Hitler. Would that be fun? But, since we addressed the fact that external material should not need to be consumed in order for a film to make sense, then we should disregard any idea as to how Ben Solo came to learn of his heritage. It is not mentioned in the films, but it is a widely held belief by many in the fandom that if Kylo Ren knew of his grandfathers’ redemption then he merely took this as a lapse in judgment in his late years (especially since it is hinted to in the films that Ren is speaking to someone via the Vader mask). Perhaps said mask has been telling Ren lies in lieu of the true story of the redemption. But that is speculation. What is not speculation is the line Ren utters in The Force Awakens, “Forgive me. I feel it again... The pull to the light... Supreme Leader senses it. Show me again... The power of the darkness... And I'll let nothing stand in our way... Show me... Grandfather... and I will finish... what you started.” What we can tell from the film is that Ren is in a constant struggle to stay within the dark, and through his words, it is expressed how this warrants forgiveness. The second half of the statement is even more worrying in the fact that Ren says ‘show me again’, referencing a previous time this ‘Vader’ has shown him what the darkness entails. Will we find out in episode nine if there was an imposter (Palpatine?) feeding more lies and brainwashing to Kylo Ren? That means not only was he getting terrible treatment from Snoke, but from his ‘grandfather’ as well. Perhaps this is why in the final trailer for episode nine we see Rey and Ren destroying said helmet. Until the film comes out, this will still be a mystery.

In coming to why I believe the Jedi are bad, I side with Luke Skywalker on this one. As he says in The Last Jedi, “ At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out. It was a Jedi Master who was responsible for the training and creation of Darth Vader.” To that, Rey points out that it was also a Jedi who saved him. Which is true! Yet, the rules surrounding the Jedi order are such that allowed for Anakin to search elsewhere for support. True, he was very conflicted, but the Jedi are so extreme that they do not welcome outside opinions or thinking. You are either all light or you’re bad. There is no intermediary. That is why the answer is grey Jedi. I know those exist, and what needs to happen is a yin and yang between the light and the dark. Working together fosters acceptance and love within the galaxy. Even the symbol in the pool of the Jedi Temple in which Luke tucked himself away had a figure in a yin and yang pattern. “Powerful light and powerful dark...a balance”. Yet, any dark whatsoever that the Jedi see they stamp out.

When Anakin says, “If you’re not with me, then you’re against me”, Obi-wan responds with, “Only sith think in absolutes!”. Well, can you see the issue there? Obi-wan is also thinking in absolute. Using the word only further segmented and cast aside Anakin, by labeling him a lost cause. Such a similar thing happened with Kylo Ren and the incident with Luke at the Jedi Academy. The momentary lapse which Luke expressed to Rey was the tipping point. In Ren’s eyes, even his Master saw him beyond saving. And since everyone around him insists on thinking in absolute, then he must be bad according to them, right?

Slowly, Ren is beginning to realize there is another way, something not presently defined within the Star Wars universe. It is not Sith, it is not Jedi, it is not the First Order: it is the ‘new order’ which he proposes to Rey. Yet, he is not ready for redemption yet. The entire point of the scene was for Rey to realize that Kylo Ren cannot be saved by anyone but himself. This is a very powerful message and I am quite looking forward to seeing how his self-realization occurs in Episode Nine. Now, keep in mind that he had banked everything on Rey saying yes, and in his mind, she is “Still. Holding. ON!”, which she is, and he is right that it is holding her back. How can you expect someone from a family of yelling, angry people to get it right the first time? In fact, Adam Driver had to ask Rian Johnson if Kylo Ren had ever kissed a girl before. Kylo is not experienced in this ‘love’ world. He did not receive much love language from his absentee parents, so the only relationship he’s known for most of his teen and adult life is that of Snoke and General Hux. At that moment in which he wakes up to realize she is gone is one of abandonment and rejection. He thought he had found his match, the answer to his loneliness, and she snapped his lightsaber in two. He is basically throwing a grownup temper-tantrum, which is blatantly apparent in the standoff with Luke. When Kylo threatens everything, even ‘destroying’ Rey, Luke claims that everything Kylo says is “a lie”. It is clear in the last few moments of the film when Kylo is defeated and on his knees holding his father’s die that the audience begins to realize his anger was all a facade. In that shot, he is merely a lost and lonely boy realising the path he has chosen is wrong. The final force-bond between Kylo and Rey exhibits every one of those notions. There is no anger in his face, not very ‘destroy-ee’ of him, and he looks up with her with an almost longing. But when she sternly shuts the door on him, once again he is left alone, the die slowly fading from his gloved hand.

If that doesn’t sound like poetry then I don’t know what is! George Lucas was quoted saying in the behind the scenes of the prequels, “You see the echo of where it all is gonna go. It’s like poetry, sort of. They rhyme.” Similar themes and sequences occur within the franchise, and they have kept that alive at Disney Lucas Films, especially in regards to the parallels drawn between Anakin/Padme and Kylo/Rey. They even designed their respective costumes in a similar fashion. Kylo has his mother and father’s anger and stubbornness. They had a rough idea of where it was all going to go. And in regards to JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson, JJ Abrams was an executive producer on Episode 8 and had a say in the general outline of the plot. JJ had set up the relationship between Kylo and Rey in The Force Awakens, and Rian continued along that path. He followed the skeleton needed to get the plot from 7-9. But think about it, Disney would not allow Rian to just veer off the path completely. Yes he had some creative license but within parameters. Sometimes I don’t think people understand the workings of a large corporation with creative decisions. On a project like Star Wars there is always input from the higher-ups. In addition, JJ Abrams auditioned potential Kylo Ren actors with the script from Pride and Prejudice (Mr. Darcy of course). This is made clear in the writing decisions and parallels which have been made for that particular character.

Lastly, would you really want George Lucas at the helm of this new trilogy? People thought the prequels were terrible and Lucas went back and digitally altered the originals against the will of fans. He is not technically the best when it comes to scriptwriting (Exhibit A: “I hate sand, it gets everywhere!”) Also, Mark Hamill was interviewed in the early ’00s and said, "You know, when I first did this, it was four trilogies. 12 movies! And out on the desert, any time between setups...lots of free time. And George was talking about this whole thing. I said, 'Why are you starting with IV, V and VI? It's crazy.' [Imitating Lucas grumble,] 'It's the most commercial section of the movie.'” Yes, the first film was a stand-alone, since they had no idea they would receive any further funding. But then the immense success allowed for Lucas to develop the franchise further.

What I think people tend to forget is that Star Wars is a fairy tale, and it is not supposed to be about ‘a mass murder’ who is going to jail. It is supposed to be about redemption at its very heart. George Lucus had expressed that he intended Star Wars as a series for “twelve-year-olds”. This explains things like Jar Jar Binks and other bizarre choices he has made as a creator. Though this explains a lot of why most of the people who hate the franchise now are angry adults online who live in an overly politically correct world judging a fictional character who is in the middle of a character arc. As JJ Abrams had said in the director's commentary of The Force Awakens, “We looked at it like […] a fairy tale. What are the elements that you’re going to see that makes it this genre, this specific genre? […] You’re probably going to have a castle, and a prince and a princess, if you’re looking at a fairy tale. We wanted to give these fundamental, not cosmetic, but prerequisite elements.”

Okay, I’ve talked too much. I am going to end it there for now. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

Haha hope that was entertaining and that sparked some thinking and inspiration. I know I let my keyboard run away from me and please excuse the odd typo from time to time. Let me know your thoughts.

I mean just look at that beautiful man.

Love you all!