#people think Arya being ugly /fits/ her character because she's non-conforming and that's basically it

[fromtheseventhhell]

hi! I’m a new fan of asoiaf (and Arya obvi lol) and I love ur blog <3 there’s a popularish post on this site that basically talks abt how the comparison between Arya and Lyanna is meant to convey that they were both tomboys and not that Arya is actually really pretty and I generally agree bc obviously yeah but it seemed kinda weird that like so many of the ppl reblogging that post were like either huge Sansa stans or were hellbent on telling others that Arya is NOT pretty which… I feel like is also missing the point?? Idk if you know which post I’m referring to, but either way I was wondering if that’s like a general fandom opinion that Arya is meant to be this conventionally unattractive person that doesn’t have looks really tied to their stories (kinda like Brienne)? Or if this is just something you’d see on tumblr cause I’ve heard the fandom here is a bit different than on like Reddit or twitter

I can take a guess at which post you're referencing and yes, it is a generally accepted idea that Arya isn't meant to be pretty. I don't think that's specific to Tumblr either, I've seen people on tiktok/reddit/twitter/etc. argue the same. While I do think there's a point to be made about Lyanna's memory being romanticized, I disagree that the conclusion should be that Lyanna and Arya aren't meant to be pretty. The idea that personality and looks aren't dependent on each other seems to be a difficult one for this fandom to grasp, so they treat Lyanna being pretty and her being a tomboy as mutually exclusive when they can (and do) coexist. There would be no point in Arya and Lyanna being referenced as pretty as many times as they are (several times for each of them) if that wasn't the case. "Missing the point" is a great way of describing it because this take is dependent on ignoring what's written in the books. As usual, I think this links back to fandom's inability to comprehend female characters that don't neatly fit into flat archetypes and their placing value on beauty and not wanting said value associated with the wrong "type" of characters. Arya and Lyanna being pretty and wild/non-conforming seems to be a little bit beyond fandom's processing capabilities.

[jackoshadows]

The ASoIaF fandom can be so frustrating sometimes.

It’s okay to admit that one doesn’t like this or that character. There’s nothing wrong in disliking a character.

I am pretty open on my blog about my indifference towards or dislike for Sansa because of her stans. I don’t make disclaimers about how much I love the character before proceeding to criticize Sansa. I am not a Sansa stan and that’s okay. My blog is a place for me to jot down my thoughts and celebrate characters, books and shows I do like. If you love Sansa as a character, block me, don’t follow me etc.

What’s obnoxiously annoying are the folks who claim to love all the characters the same and then give their ‘unbiased’ opinions which are held up as canon facts because they came from neutral book reader experts. To hell with that nonsense.

These posts reek of hypocrisy and double standards. It often tears down some characters while subtly propping up others - and it’s gobbled up by the wider fandom as unbiased interpretation of the text.

One example is pushing forth the notion that calling Arya pretty (Something that both her father and brother tell her she is in the books) is wrong, it’s sexualizing her, it’s okay for Arya to be ugly, she’s canonically not pretty because Cat/Sansa said so and no other interpretation is allowed etc. And then the same person who says all this celebrates Sansa’s beauty and ships her with a 27 year old man who falls in lust with Sansa.

Or when they say that the Arya-Lyanna (and Sansa/Lyanna parallels, because it’s always important to mention Sansa with respect to Lyanna even if said person claims to not care about Lyanna as a character) parallels are overrated and not important and they don’t care about Robert’s Rebellion characters but on their blogs there’s all these posts, fanarts and meta about Elia Martell - a Robert’s Rebellion character.

A so called book expert would note that GRRM has several characters outright compare Arya to Lyanna or mistake Lyanna for Arya in the books while Sansa has no such comparison. But no, the unbiased book expert thinks that the Arya-Lyanna and Sansa-Lyanna parallels are equivalent and are both overrated.That post just annoyed me excessively into writing this long ass rant post.

Why are these neutral, unbiased folks so interested in stripping away from Arya’s story?

In the books Jeyne Poole is masquerading as Arya Stark - but that story is only Jeyne’s, has nothing to do with Arya or Arya’s importance to the North. 

Arya is a strong warg, Nymeria and her wolf pack are a ‘Chekov’s wolf pack’ that GRRM has hung on the wall  -  Our expert opinion is that Direwolves are not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

Arya is pretty - why needlessly call Arya pretty, it adds nothing to Arya’s story and is all about sexualizing a child.

Arya-Lyanna parallels - why do we need these parallels, Arya is distinct and interesting without them.

These aspects are all important parts of the character’s story. There are so many very well written essays exploring these concepts with respect to Arya’s journey of self discovery in the books, the narrative significance of her parallels to Lyanna, her bond with Nymeria and her warging talents. For those who are interested, here are two bloggers who actually like Arya and have written about her character and character arc.

https://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/meta-masterlist

https://ashotofjac.tumblr.com/tagged/arya-stark

Some of these same people will rush to condemn any reading of the books that does not have Sansa wielding power at the end as being ‘Sansa hate’. But they will have no issues to undermine and devalue Arya’s actual book story, the relationships she has, the parallels she has, the skillsets she has, her appearance, her importance to the current story happening in the North.

There is a whole ass plot currently in the books of Northerners rallying for Arya Stark and preparing for battle against the Boltons for Arya Stark. But that’s not important because it’s actually Jeyne Poole and Arya’s story is about sailing off west of westeros.  But hey, Sansa will definitely go North and hold power and that’s like 100% happening because we are the unbiased book experts and we say it is so.

Or when all else fails - Arya is a Mary Sue, she’s a fantasy character, she’s a ‘strong female character’ because she fights with a sword, people like her because she’s a tomboy who fights. Sansa is realistic, Sansa is complex - but here are all the essays that basically transfer Arya’s complexity and story to Sansa - because it fits more with their fave, because these aspects would fit better with the traditionally feminine character even though they never tire of talking about how GRRM is deconstructing tropes. Because the trope deconstruction is only applied to Arya, Jon and Dany. Never Sansa.

And honestly, why are these people reading a high fantasy series if they hate fantasy and fantasy characters so much? We love Sansa because she’s so non-magical! Then go read non-fiction books. They also twist Jon, Arya and Dany into ‘fantasy’ characters - despite these characters going through some very real and human experiences. What’s fantasy about Arya’s experiences in war torn Westeros, Jon dealing with bigotry at the wall, Dany trying to rebuild Meereen, while dealing with famine, disease and insurgency?

Or how Jon and Dany getting any kind of happy ending or becoming rulers would be so boring, sweet, predictable, conforming to tropes, a happy ending etc. But Sansa getting love, romance, going home, becoming the Stark in Winterfell, getting her fairy tale ending - that’s totally what GRRM is going to do! No trope deconstruction there!  In may ways, Benioff and Weiss’ ending is not all that surprising -  Mad Queen Dany, Jon remaining a bastard with the freefolk, Sansa having power as a leader - are all popular theories among bnfs in the fandom. D&D wanting to wind up the show quickly with easily found fan theories is not that much of a stretch.

ASoIaF reddit is equally frustrating. Instead of Sansa stan bnfs on tumblr who pretend to like Arya and Dany while subtly undermining their story and importance, on Asoiaf reddit it’s Stannis stans who dislike Jon and Dany because these characters present a challenge to Stannis. The mere suggestion that Jon may play a role in the battle against Ramsay sends them into frothing at the mouth rage. They hate Jon, Jon is a Gary Sue because he dared advice Stannis - the greatest general ever - on Northern military strategy. Never mind that Jon grew up in the North and learned from Ned, how dare Jon Snow know more than Stannis! Unacceptable!

And I love Stannis Baratheon. I want Stannis to crush and defeat the Boltons. But unlike reddit dudebros, I can see that he is a secondary character, a tragic character who is most probably going to perish and Jon takes over because Jon Snow is a central protagonist in the story.

I feel it’s the same with Sansa. IMO, GRRM clearly doesn’t see Sansa in the same way as he does Arya, Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Bran. Whenever he is asked questions about the books, book plots, long term arcs, endings, age gaps etc it’s these characters he often brings up and references. It’s these characters who are important to him.

And that’s why there’s a lot of undermining and undervaluing of these character’s and their stories, them being described as fantasy characters, tropes, Mary Sues and Gary Sues, ableist rhetoric about Tyrion and Bran to undermine them.

I am damned certain that if it was Sansa who had all the parallels to Lyanna, or if she was the warg, or Jeyne Poole was impersonating her, this would all be ‘VERY IMPORTANT’ and on all the gifsets and essays. But she isn’t. So fandom bnfs are reduced to talking about how these aspects are not all that important anyway.

It’s like how this quote - ‘You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts’ turns up on gifsets every other day on the Arya tag but this quote - ‘Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier of Arya had been a bastard, like her half brother Jon. And Jon’s mother had been common, or so people whispered’ very rarely does and will not get reblogged when it does.

Or when Sansa sees Joffrey trying to kill Arya and sides with Joffrey or when Sansa throws Arya under the bus and tells the Lannisters that it’s Arya who is the traitor - just sisters being sisters y’all!

It’s all about maintaining a certain narrative about Sansa - and when others point out her actual relationship with Arya in the books, we are accused of hating and wanting Sansa dead and how we should be criticizing Tywin and the Mountain instead. This is nonsensical whataboutism and ignores that people talk about  these aspects of the books because sometimes bullying, getting mocked for one’s appearance, abuse and neglect from parental figures etc. can resonate with certain readers unlike getting one’s head smashed in by Frankenstein.

At the end of the day, I wish these people would be honest about the characters they like and relate to. We are all biased. That’s why our opinions and interpretations are subjective. There’s nothing wrong in saying, hey, I like Sansa more than Arya or Dany, I relate to her character more.

I relate to Jon Snow a lot, I see things from his POV, I would disagree with the characters who disagree with Jon,  I enjoy his story at the Wall and the North. My interpretations of the text are therefore colored by my bias towards Jon. 

For others, it’s Dany or Sansa or Arya or Tyrion or Jaime. And that’s okay because these are fictional characters and liking one more than the other is not going to earn anyone woke points and lead to women’s rights.

And finally, there’s nothing edgy or cool about disparaging the central protagonists of a high fantasy series as being fantasy characters - go read other books if one is not into fantasy.

[janiedean]

1-Hi Lavi I just chime in to say that I totally agree with you on the whole Brienne thing. As someone who totally relates to Brienne and Sam over all the Asoiaf characters and puts them on the podium right behind our working class hero (ho visto il gifset con Guido Caprino e ho urlato I WAS RIGHT ai quattro venti) I just want to say that media mindfuck up people so much that they can't even conceive what is the reality for thousand of individuals that might relate to people like Bri and Sam.

2-Like I'm not conventionally pretty (I don't post my face down here because I know people here have the mindset of a bunch of italian middleschool pischellitm) and it took a lot of work to accept my female side evolving from the typical Arya/Asha mindset (i come from a rural family background that evaluates everything male) to a more non conforming but still accepting my femaleness like Brienne/Alys Mormont kind of people. I'm a chubby young woman and it's quite disheartening to see that on the internet I have to perform my femininity to the 100% on the appearance side (make up, clothes and high heels) to be accepted as a plus size woman. Like I can bake and sew and do other elderly things (sono vecchia dentro lo so) and people generally say I'm kind, I just feel comfy in jeans and coverse for god sake! Fandom in general is so absorbed in the mainstream media culture: like I like the little wizard saga but cringe everytime they pick skinny dudes to play the 2 main overweight characters, like for real! Like you I totally related on the bio side of Brienne background (while I'm bi) and it took more than 25 years for me to see a large faced asian girl on screen of the western media (i've seen some eastern movies but there we are always ridiculized for being unattractivre) . Like I'm not the hugest star wars fan but I jumped on my seat when I saw Rose face on the first trailer! Scusami tanto per il lenzuolo e grazie tante per la pazienza! penultimo!

(figurati np per il lenzuolo!)

as someone who also identifies with sam (but sam didn’t have the LIST OF THINGS THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO ME, like I can relate because I also had weight issues, like cats, greatly enjoy music and books and such but again I wasn’t reading sam’s chapters with cold sweat running down my face and going like ‘ooooops THIS IS TOO CLOSE’) I 100% agree xD 

media mindfuck up people so much that they can't even conceive what is the reality for thousand of individuals that might relate to people like Bri and Sam

^^^ THANKS. like the thing is that you don’t need to be ugly whatever it is that it means. I... really even wasn’t. but I wasn’t pretty enough to be standard level and look where it got me. sure, having the (I know now but) toxic rship with the supposed best friend who was 1.82, flat, thin, with blonde hair and green eyes DIDN’T HELP AT ALL especially since she bragged about it but like... in retrospective I actually was healthier than she was but everyone around us (her included) made me feel like I was the one who had to conform to the standards. if I had had one damned example of person who got her way and didn’t have to conform to that shit maybe I’d have gotten more confidence?? who knows.

and like... the fun thing is that I’m actually pretty feminine but with the fact that I had the damned F cup size which I hated most **feminine** stuff didn’t even fit me so I basically went for fuck it let’s just drown in band t-shirts aesthetic so I couldn’t even perform to the femininity standards because people would think I looked horrible *rolls eyes* like idk I started feeling fine with myself for real when I got the reduction, IMAGINE THE HORROR (and people kept on telling me that it was my card to look attractive because *everyone likes large breasts* pffff yeah my ass) -_-’ like I haven’t embraced it yet I guess but fuck’s sake that was all thanks to *conventional beauty standards TM* and don’t people realize that you don’t have to look like the phantom of the opera to get sucked in that? blergh. I’m just so damned tired of seeing that for the one time I actually had the character I could really identify with suddenly she’s boring or unrelevant if she’s like me you know -__-

and YES FOR ROSE rose is a+++ and she deserves all the best and she’s the nicest cupcake around I’m glad that you got nice rep ;__;