#people talk a lot about juri's and especially saionji's for very good reason

[yomigaere]

Preserving these tags from the OP:

#the way these get progressively more graphic and disturbing as the episodes go on….. chef’s kiss #the first time it happens you're like 'wow! what an aesthetically gorgeous and highly stylised metaphor' #but as the arc continues the animation and framing shifts to show that this is actually a very real and very painful violation #and then.... when you begin to apply that insight to anthy and her experiences as the rose bride.... yeah

"The path you must take has been prepared for you. You have no choice but to revolutionise the world."

REVOLUTIONARY GIRL UTENA 🌹 BLACK ROSE ARC

[princeoftheroses]

Since you want asks, PLSSSE I want your Utena TH0ughts. WHAT is your favourite black rose episode? actually how do you feel about the black rose arc in GENERAL

black rose arc, black rose arc, oh black rose arc!!! by you adding how do i feel about the arc in general you are unleashed me to make a long post giving my very disorganized thoughts about this arc.

a couple of people call it a filler arc? i guess technically it is because it does not directly contribute to the main storyline and it wasn't in the manga and also the ending of the arc sort of makes it so the whole arc kind of didn't happen???

but also i think if a person labeled it as a filler arc they are kind of missing the point?? even if it doesn't contribute to the main plot (which it absolutely DOES but i'll get to that) it adds so much nuance to the characters of utena.

you get to see side characters and how they tick!! some of which like kozue and shiori become very important later as they become miki and ruka's rose brides in the akio arc! (side note : what was up with ruka he just kind of showed up and disappeared lmaooo)

also, it adds to akio! (tw warning for only the next paragraph, i'm talking about akio so you can except me talking about grooming and abuse)

not only is this where akio is introduced, but he is always so omnipresent. it was ... honestly really terrifying to see how chill he acts with utena here. of course the real grooming begins in the akio arc but you can see how he starts here. how he kind of builds himself as anthy's cool older brother that utena can trust and ask for advice for... but we the audience know that he CANNOT be trusted as even know we see him being shady af in the background. i really feel like if we skipped straight from the first arc to akio arc a lot of the creepiness of akio would not have been realized because of ... just how NORMAL he akio acts to utena. he's charming, he's smart, and he overall is somebody utena SHOULD be able to trust bc we should all be able to trust an immediate family member of a best friend , but of course the world doesn't really work that way. anyway akio tangent over because BOOOOOO akio (he honestly terrifies me so much because of how many predators like that exist and you can meet without realizing their intentions)

BACK TO BLACK ROSE ARC

one of the main reasons i feel like this isn't a filler arc, at least not in the traditional sense of the phrase, is because it builds a lot character relationships. something that i didn't like when i first watched revolutionary girl utena but now is one of my FAVORITE things is that for a while we don't really get a straight forward utena/anthy episode. because their relationship doesn't need to build in an episode, it just slowly builds over time. we just see these two causally existing and they just start to trust each other.

in the akio arc we get to see just how close utena/anthy have gotten over the series because of their late night conversations. like how if the black rose arc didn't exist akio wouldn't have been as impactful, if the black rose arc didn't exist it would feel more sudden how close utena/anthy have grown imo.

this arc adds a lot to the world as well. as long as the students stay inside of school they will not grow. dead people wander the halls thinking that they are still alive. these two facts contribute a lot to utena theorizing and analysis (mainly, the ideas that ohtori exists within a plain of frozen time literally because of anthy's magic and metaphorically because the cast is very cozy in their coffin) and i could not thank this arc for that enough. not only are these very cool ideas that may or may not have inspired elements in my own story (i can neither confirm or deny that one of my oc story is heavily inspired by utena) but they just add so many layers!

this arc also felt necessary because of the new duelists??? if we went straight from the first arc to the akio arc then it would've kinda gotten very tiring to see the student council constantly duel and lose to utena (with the exception of touga's sole victory to utena in the first arc before she duels him again and wins) but these new duelists possessed by the black rose are very interesting!

if i did have to make a compliant about this arc, though, i will say that at times the stories felt very disconnected to each other. while it was very funny for utena to not even know who keiko was when she dueled her, it would've been nice if sometimes the arc of the black rose duelist intertwined more with utena. as the arc goes on, the student council is on alert and is trying to figure out where the black rose is coming from, but they never really try to ask utena about it and utena never really tries to get involved? she just is chill until she gets the note to go to the duel arena to fight the black rose duelist. i don't really have a solution on how to fix this? maybe have the student council member that the black rose duelist takes the sword from be more involved? idk.

the villain of this arc mikage also really fascinates me??? i... really like him??? but not even as a villain ... i just really pity him. the realization he has in his duel with utena that everything he has been doing is for nothing because mamiya is already dead .. that always really hit me? the horror in his voice when he starts to recall the truth in his false memories.... for some reason, this is one of the most terrifying parts of the show for me. the realization that something you were doing, something you were doing that might've been awful but you were doing it because of somebody you care about deeply and love, it was all for nought. how much time he has wasted...

even before his duel with utena, there's this moment when after he got punched by utena he says something like "if she hadn't seen my duelist ring and challenged me to a duel, she could've killed me" or something like that, he's just so pathetic and i feel very bad for him but at the same time am too disconnected to him to truly feel empathy for him... that's some TOP TIER shit

overall, this part of the show is one of my favorites. the only part i like more is the last few episodes because it makes me very emotional.

NOW FOR THE SPECIFICS

favorite black rose duelist: honestly? wakaba. the girl deserves it this is stress relief for her. not only is this duel very emotional as i don't think we've ever seen utena refuse to duel somebody (at least not in the way that she does in this episode) but just the SHEER emotion.

i'm a real sucker for fighting the person you care about the most which is why the dark signer arc in yugioh 5ds is the best yugioh arc and this just really takes the cake in this arc. utena always shows concern for the black rose duelist because they are clearly people in pain who were not able to properly duel with their grief which let mikage manipulate them, but it's taken to a new level here.

the way that after the duel is completed, wakaba comes home to her empty dorm where saionji used to be but now isn't always gets me. she's just such a lonely girl and that's never really resolved for her. a lot of the other duelists have a optimist note to end on (kozue asking miki for a milkshake, shiori and juri saying hello to each other as they walk past, keiko being friends with nanami again, etc.) which is why the fact that wakaba is more alone now then she is ever... it is a feeling i can relate to an almost embarrassing amount.

favorite episode: COWBELL OF HAPPINESS, NANAMI TURNS INTO A COW-

ANTHY YOU GLORIOUS TROLL-

favorite episode that isn't cowbell of happiness: i'm very torn between the landscape scaped by kozue and thorns of death. shiori and kozue are both very interesting characters that i like a lot. but i'm going to go with thorns of death for now, as while i really like the landscape scaped by kozue, i think my preferred miki/kozue episode is their episode in the akio arc. meanwhile i like thorns of death way more than i liked whispers in the arc (mostly because i just do not really care that much for ruka, but azure paler than the sky was a banger and he was in that?) i just loved the feeling of seeing shiori the girl juri loves so much and juri's reaction to seeing her. the way my heart was wrenched when black rose shiori mocks juri... it really did hit different. but the hopeful ending did make me feel a lot better. i do like the way that juri out of all the student council members is the one closest to self actualization and this really sets that up even if there is still a bumpy road until then.

honorary mention: the boys of the black rose and kanae as a black rose duelist are both really great. i feel like if this wasn't the arc opener it would've had more room to stretch its legs and show how horrific it could've been. kanae is a girl i feel really bad about and similar to wakaba, i don't really think her episode was a very optimistic ending for her especially since akio probably killed her later in the show?

honestly the minute akip appeared on screen, engaged to a girl who HASN'T EVEN GRADUATED and is also emotionally manipulating her so much and having his little sister manipulate her too... throw the whole man away

tl;dr - the black rose arc is very good and i like it a lot, the ending of the arc really fucks me up, somebody give mikage & all the black rose duelists therapy, throw akio in the garbage, and this show probably exists in some sort of time loop / frozen time space as a metaphor for the whole coffin thing but you can probbaly find people smarter than me talking about that.

oh and go rewatch cowbell of happiness it's great

[iztarshi]

The Boy Princess

An analysis of Saionji that Saionji himself would hate. Collected into one post at the request of an anon.

Once upon a time all the girls of the world were princesses. But what does that mean?

Princesses are saved by princes. Princesses are cherished, not for any particular qualities they have, but by their nature1. A princess’ suffering is never met with indifference and they’re allowed to want someone else to solve their problems. They’re allowed to be passive and dependent, but not allowed to stop being those things. And they are devoted to their prince.

Once upon a time Saionji had a friend he thought the world of. Touga was stronger, smarter, braver, always ahead of him in some indefineable way, and none of this was a reason to feel anything but glad that Touga had singled him out for attention. Then, one stormy night, he was suddenly faced with the awareness of fear and despair, with things people might need saving from, things that could make a child younger than him want to die. Also, with the awareness that Touga had already known, that he could face these things without fear2.

Saionji’s distress, though, doesn’t matter. Touga declares himself an ally to all girls, but his best friend calling out for him to stop doesn’t affect him. It’s with the logic of a child in the throes of hero worship that Saionji concludes that Touga had something eternal to show and showed it to a strange girl rather than him. He’s not wrong, though, to think that Touga wants to save, specifically, girls.

Before that Saionji trusted Touga enough that Touga being stronger and more driven didn’t matter. If Touga accidentally hurt him he would bandage him too. Touga might keep them out late, but he’d be the one to get them home3.

Afterwards, he loses that trust. Whatever Touga gains by being stronger will not be shared with Saionji. Saionji cannot be weak and still be worth something.

As a boy, if he wants to matter to Touga, he has to be his equal.

Saionji’s career as a duelist is ignominious from start to finish. He’s trying to be a stoic warrior type4, which – since he’s a very emotional person – results in vaccillating between anger and vicious glee.

Being equal to Touga is now necessary to even be safe around him. Saionji isn’t, so he isn’t, and even his scrambling to gain equality has become something for Touga to use against him. The first time we see them alone together Saionji whips a sword at Touga’s face and Touga doesn’t even flinch. No matter how often Saionji takes his frustration with Touga out on others, Touga’s the one person he would never willingly hurt, and Touga knows it.

The person Saionji mostly hurts is Anthy, who he’s convinced himself that he loves. She’s everything he thinks he ought to want, and Touga wants her enough to duel for her which makes her irresistible. He tries to convince himself she loves him, too, but never quite manages to forget she’s only with him because he owns her.

Saionji’s duels are “friendship” and “choice” in opposition to Touga’s duels of “self” and “conviction”. The qualities he’s trying to act on, though, are Touga’s not his own. The result is that he doesn’t successfully show any. He craves emotional connection but is, for good reason, widely disliked. Yet his sense of who he is alone is muddled at best. He stubbornly sticks to the duels but has no plan for how to accomplish things within them and winds up manipulated by anyone who offers him an opportunity – whether it’s dubious letters or Mikage bargaining for Wakaba’s hairclip.

Saionji’s final duel isn’t the conclusion of his character arc, but his lowest point. In an arc where the duels are based around relationships he enters the arena alone and “his” duel is really Utena and Anthy’s5.

Touga talks him into the duel, a role which will later be the bride’s, but leaves him to fight it alone6. As the only one who doesn’t have his sword, Saionji’s heart is quite literally not in the duel.

Saionji enters the last duel as a lone warrior who lets nothing stand in his way, especially such petty considerations as decency or feelings, and is promptly flattened by the developing relationship between Utena and Anthy.

Finally Saionji has failed hard enough for it to stick. He accepts that he’s done. He won’t be Touga’s equal, he won’t win Anthy, he won’t gain eternity. But what will he do?

The woods in a fairy tale are always a liminal place. Even more so woods where an unwanted "child" has been abandoned. So it's fitting that Nanami stumbles across Saionji in a state of transition from duelist to outsider.

In a series where clothing and gender presentation are important, Saionji has decided to do some cooking in a frilly apron7. There's even a lacey table cloth under his hot plate. A lot of anger seems to have been shed with the role of duelist and, even though Nanami hits him, he seems mostly confused and worried about her. He even offers to cook her an egg.

While he keeps the slightly ambiguous presentation for camping out where he doesn't expect to be seen, Saionji does start taking on a role similar to Utena's early one as Touga draws him back into the duels. Utena never cared about the power to revolutionise the world. While it's not entirely that straightforward, she's been fighting for Anthy. As a result she's often been snarky as hell about it, able to see through some of the bullshit but not avoid it completely. A female prince, and therefore anomalous to Ohtori's systems, but still a prince, and therefore part of them.

Touga and Saionji also can't move outside Ohtori's systems. They meet on the student council balcony to discuss Touga's upcoming duel and letters from Ends of the World. Touga provides an ersatz car ride with his motorbike, following the pattern of the other duels deliberately. But, like Utena, Saionji now has enough distance to question the system even as he participates, and he's here solely for Touga's sake.

Like the other brides, Saionji is there to delve into his duelist's feelings and motivations, but he's not doing it to tempt or manipulate8. Touga needs to understand his own motivation if he's going to be effective -- it's the less metaphorical counterpart to pulling his sword. And they manage to leave Akio out of the process.

Touga takes Saionji more seriously in this role than he ever did as a rival. Feelings, especially his own feelings, are not Touga's area of expertise. He needs a bride by the nature of the duels and he needs a friend because he's in over his head. Saionji, for his part, seems content with being needed rather than being equal. In a way it's what he's always wanted.

Saionji drawing Touga's sword is animated with a real tenderness that both echoes Anthy drawing Utena's and contrasts Saionji drawing Anthy's, where his expression was angry and his focus on his opponent. It's fitting, in a way, that the pair that comes closest to what Utena and Anthy have is the other same sex couple9.

Saionji makes a good princess in the same way Utena makes a good prince -- although, unlike her, he'd certainly object if you told him that's what the role was. He's comfortable in it and it brings out mostly good things in him, letting him be insightful and supportive. It's a bad role in itself, though. Saionji doesn't need to fight for power over others, but he shouldn't let himself be completely passive and dependant, or rely on other people's goals to give him purpose.

Later, between Utena's victory over them and her final duel, we see Touga riding a bike across the balcony with Saionji on the back. Saionji seems more content with this than Touga, totally relaxed while Touga struggles to move forward providing motive force for them both. There's not much Saionji can do, though, even if he wanted to. Touga's bike has never been a tandem.

Maybe they should get one.

1I just pictured Dios on tumblr telling all the girls of the world they’re valid.

2Touga’s abuse backstory does a lot to explain his unchildlike reaction here. But even without that, Touga canonically shows less emotion when distressed until he dissociates altogether. He’s almost certainly more affected than Saionji thinks.

3Who drives is very important in Utena, and it’s Touga’s bike. Nanami has a picture of herself perched on the back, too.

4Only Utena and Touga frame themselves as aspiring princes. Saionji’s gender essentialism has a more Japanese flavour.

5Which is why Virtual Star Embryology becomes the new ending theme.

6And then complains about everything he did to be Saionji’s friend while in bed with Akio. Jerk.

7He's still wearing his student council uniform underneath, though, so he hasn't totally moved on yet.

8Although he probably gets some satisfaction out of brutal honesty.

9I wonder if this explains Ruka, since Juri and Shiori would have been another same sex couple either less effective or too early in the sequence.

[queen-of-hearts92]

Is Kozue unpopular in the Utena fandom? She's my favorite character and most of my friends also like her but when I tried looking for Utena analyses and theories I found people saying Miki should have left her and another person saying she should have "fallen out of the Akio car and died so Akio could have a redemption arc". I understand not everyone's going to love her, and she definitely has her flaws, but this seems a bit extreme. If the fandom does hate her, why?

I…I didn’t think she was unpopular but this is the fucking Utena fandom, the land of many people missing the point and being extremely sexist and slutshaming, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised there are people that hate her outright out there. 

*Reads the quote* *sarcasm mode* Oh yeah totally, the 13 year old girl who at the worst pushed a child predator down the stairs deserves to die while the adult male rapist who horrifically abuses his sister and rapes kids should get a redemption arc, yeah ok *sarcasm mode end*. Anyways, that sentence you just quoted to me is absolutely awful and disgusting, shame on whoever the fuck wrote that. You’re right, thats extreme as fuck. Fuck that person! >8/

And yes thats a good question why in the fresh hell someone would hate her like that but it has an answer that is actually floating around Miki and Kozue’s story and the show as a whole. It’s cause of the Madonna-Whore complex. Basically society often place women into two categories, the Madonna, which is a pure sexless woman who does no wrong, and the Whore, which is an evil lady who has sex all the damn time and is a horrible sinner. Any lady who fails to be a “Madonna” gets seen as a “Whore”. But it’s a double edged sword, cause woman are also expected to be sexually available to men. Breakfast Club puts it very nicely too. In Utena this is talked about A LOT by using the terms Princess (madonna) and Witch (whore). “Those who cannot become a Princess are doomed to become a Witch”. Many of the female characters, especially the secondary ones, run face first into this issue. I find, out of the secondary characters, that Kozue and Shiori exemplify this the most and Kozue exemplifies this the most most. Anddd this lesson on not doing that to people just flies the fuck over some folks heads. 8/

SO the reason why there are those in the fandom who are hateful of Kozue is cause, she’s sexually active and mildly aggressive (I say mildly cause she isn’t really THAT violent let’s be real here) and yup thats it. Some people think Miki is “better” because he has a kinder disposition than the other dudes in the series and they conveniently ignore the fact that he treats his sister like shit. Like even the dating sim game protagonist picks up on this and eventually turns him down at the end of his route cause his projecting weirded her out and she notes multiple times (if you make dialogue choices where you are not rude to Kozue) that Kozue seems sad around him like you guys.

Now Miki doesn’t treat her poorly as in Touga style but he clearly holds her in contempt cause Miki’s whole thing is he dislikes that Kozue isn’t the “sweet innocent girl” he remembers from their childhood. She isn’t want HE wants her to be. So he projects onto others (like Anthy) looking for the ideal twin sister and the saddest part is Kozue KNOWS this. She is very very aware, she makes it obvious she knows during her elevator scene in the Black Rose Arc. And it hurts, Miki rejecting her really hurts. Their parents literally abandoned them so Miki is the only family she has. Kozue sleeps around because when she does Miki gets angry and that gives her attention, anytime they spend together she’s defensive of cause she knows her brother straight up will ignore her most of the time therefore spending time with him is important to her. Their relationship is a mess to put it mildly and some motherfuckers try and be like “ah this twin is evil and this one isn’t” when that isn’t fucking close to being true at all.

Miki and Kozue still care about and love each other, I really think they do, but as they have grown older they don’t really know how to communicate clearly to each other anymore. Miki clings to the past and refuses to acknowledge that he and his sister are growing up. Kozue is ready to grow up and be more independent but she doesn’t want to do so without her brother and she tries to tackle adult things she probably isn’t ready for (like having a mature sex life at age 13) which just strains their relationship like crazy. 

My point being is there are people in the fandom that take Kozue’s bravado at face value forgetting that she’s a 13 year old who likes pretending she has her shit together and she gets hate cause fandom sexism because to them Kozue deserves bad things because she’s not perfect or pure. A lot of folks in the fandom for some ungodly reason forget that the majority of the characters in the show are literal children and they do act their age. You have the middle school kids (Miki, Nanami, Kozue, Utena, and Wakaba) who all have various degrees of fake confidence and are extremely confused all the time, as many kids their age do/are, and you have the high school students (Juri, Shiori, Saionji, Touga, Kanae) who range from I def know what I’m doing (Touga and Saionji) to I have zero idea what I’m doing but all I can do is scream internally (Juri, Shiori, Kanae) and ofc you have Juri and Shiori doing the gay panic dance but thats a different discussion all together lol.

Basically, fuck people who hate Kozue. She’s an excellent character and deserves good things all the time! I personally really like Kozue and I’m happy she’s your favorite dude! Keep loving her! Ignore the hateful motherfuckers! I’m speaking as a Shiori fan when I say I understand your struggle dude. There are always gonna be ignorant and hateful fools in the fandom, it’s best to just ignore them really. Here! I made this years ago but I think you’d like a Kozue defense squad gif! ^w^! I made one for all the Utena ladies! If you want me to talk about more utena things just let me know!

Side note: I did a analysis about Kozue in 2013 and I still agree with what I wrote more or less, give it a read if you like! Also I created an Utena analysis blog years ago if you would like more analysis stuff! I (nor my partner) haven’t updated it in awhile but I think it’s still got good shit on it!