#one thing that i always think about is how mithrun's brother is one of the few people in mithrun's recovery support group

[senseearly]

One thing that I always think about post-dungeon recovery Mithrun who got home is that people were probably used to talking about him while he was still in the room.

Misiril's squad used to that when he was still in their care. Questions towards him were quickly redirected to others when he wouldn't (couldn't) answer their questions -- where was the rest of his squad? what happened to the demon? how did he even end up like this? Asking or talking to Mithrun is a pointless effort. So they stopped doing that.

And Mithrun, he's gotten used to this set-up, not like he could bring himself to care.

When his caretakers and visiting family started doing it, he continued to be apathetic to them (although, the numbness from this large, gaping hole in his chest makes him think that he used to care).

The caretakers would do their duties, but behind his back, they would probably gossip about Mithrun's chances of recovery. Others think there is still hope, a lot of them think this is going to be permanent. Which is good, at least to their business, because Mithrun's brother pays a lot to make sure he is alive. And Mithrun...is not in the state to do that himself. They at least try to whisper when they're around Mithrun, keep their voices low or mention him under an alias or a codename. But Mithrun knows they are talking about him. He is the elephant in the room.

His visiting family is less nice. They take one look at him and weep -- not out of worry, or pity, or sadness -- but of shame. There is no way they can show him to others anymore, they bemoan. There is no way he can represent himself as a member of the House of Kerensil, they cry. He's just like his brother! And, once upon a time, that comment would've hurt Mithrun, a stab right into his heart. But all he feels is a gaping numbness that cannot be filled (It used to be full, he can't help but think).

I wish he had died, someone from his family said while he was within earshot. And Mithrun, barely alive but still breathing, cannot bring himself to care.

The only person that I think would be delighted to see him alive, at least, is his brother. I can see him visiting Mithrun whenever he can (at least in elf time terms). Talking to him as if he can respond, asking him about things when Mithrun can't bring himself to answer. At some point, Mithrun's brother stopped talking to him when he visits; instead, he would just sit next to Mithrun and watch the birds and the flowers. He would drink tea and Mithrun would do nothing.

But once in a while, Mithrun's brother would tell him, I'm glad you came home, I'm glad you're still alive.

[mithrun-house-of-kerensil]

Lately, I've been thinking about Mithrun and the ways he is dehumanized in canon.

Before I get started, we know that elven society is incredibly afraid of death and illness. This is obvious in how they look down on the short lived races and see them as weak and childlike. We also know that Mithrun himself had ableist views toward his brother and these values did not leave him once he, himself, became disabled. He is a product of the society that raised him, but I also think how Mithrun is currently being treated contributes to his view of himself.

Mithrun has had three different caretaking groups over the years. The first are the ones his brother hired for him. From what we can see, they did the job, but we can understand that they did not know what to do with him. No one had ever recovered from having their desires eaten so the focus was less on rehabilitation and more on keeping him alive.

Later we see Milsiril take an interest in him because of his desire to return to the dungeon. Since she did not bother to visit him for decades after finding him, we can assume that there is an ulterior motive here. Timeline-wise, this was when the majority of the canaries had just been wiped out. They needed more men, and Mithrun is set up to be the perfect single-focused soldier.

Honestly, we can assume that Milsiril doesn't really care about him or see him as a person. Mithrun is just a new project for her to play with. We can see this in how she's focused on superficial level concerns like the fact that he doesn't look nice and wanting him to be overly grateful toward her. She also talks about him like he's not in the room and can't hear her. This is a dehumanizing trait shared by many characters when talking about Mithrun.

When he finally does recover enough to return to the canaries, the military does not make any effort to accommodate his needs. We know the canaries are understaffed and the ethics are already bad, but they really did not even try to care about Mithrun's safety at all.

Entrusting a criminal with his care was questionable at best, especially when Cithis immediately took the opportunity to abuse her power over him and no one stopped her.

While acknowledging the light-hearted nature of the manga, it's uncomfortable that Mithrun was treated like a child and an animal by Cithis for her amusement. Regardless of her 'learning to respect him' later, the point is that Mithrun was taken advantage of and degraded because she believed he couldn't say no. No one bothered to do anything about this until Pattadol yelled at her.

Truly his treatment is summarized well by Milsiril here. Mithrun is extremely vulnerable to being abused by those taking care of him because he won't advocate for himself. He has one desire so he won't fight for himself in any other way.

It is obvious that Mithrun was not treated well by his caretakers and this has resulted in him identifying his needs through a disconnected and frankly, infantilizing lens.

I understand that it may have been a translator's decision, but I always thought it was interesting that Mithrun says that he's "not sleepy" which is a childish term. Otherwise, he speaks like everyone else, if not rather posh.

This, followed by the fact that he is responsive to Kabru treating him like a literal infant to get him to eat, paints a clear picture of the fact that Mithrun is not unfamiliar with being treated like this. He responds to it because he's used to it and has no desire to argue with being treated this way. When we consider the fact that the chapter started with Milsiril treating an older child Kabru in the same way, it is likely that she also did the same thing to Mithrun when he was under her care.

In these panels, we see that Mithrun does not believe that he can sleep without magical assistance, even though it is immediately refuted when Kabru takes the time to bundle him up and help him relax. Not only does he fully believe he can't sleep without external assistance, but he states directly that there is no point in him getting comfortable.

As Kabru observes, Mithrun's inability to recognize his needs applies to needs such as hunger and exhaustion, but it obviously also applies to emotional needs. Kabru just wanting to feed him something delicious and not wanting him to give up on life is the most consideration someone has given Mithrun in years.

The relationship they form over the course of a single week is enough to shape Mithrun's behaviour completely. Mithrun ignores Cithis's demand in favour of asking Kabru's opinion. It is Kabru's hand Mithrun takes to pull him out of his defeated state. It is Kabru Mithrun confessed his true desire to.

Do you realize how depressing that is? All it took was the new perspectives from Kabru and Senshi to make him consider the fact that he should keep living despite no longer needing to fulfill his duty. Being treated well could have helped Mithrun much sooner and this shift in the way he sees himself contributes to his recovery going forward.

TLDR: Mithrun has no desire to be respected, but why does that make people feel comfortable acting like he doesn't deserve it? Someone not caring about being treated well doesn't give you permission to treat them poorly. This feels like a playschool-level consent lesson: just because he's not saying no to a humiliating or degrading act doesn't mean it's a yes and therefore okay to do. Acknowledging this is the bare minimum of treating him as a person.

[pollyanna-nana]

One of the most tragic and compelling aspects of Dunmeshi, to me, is that we’ll probably never know (unless Kui tells us lol) how Delgal actually felt about Thistle. I’ve seen people say that he genuinely cared for him as a brother and his journey to the surface was to save him from his madness as much as it was his people. I’ve seen people say that he saw Thistle as nothing more than a fancy accessory or tool that ended up going astray. Others I’ve seen (and personally agree with) say that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. But honestly, I think any one of these interpretations has the potential to be correct… and that’s just heartbreaking.

After all, Delgal is dead. Like, dead-dead. The very first chapter of the manga starts with his spirit leaving this mortal coil, taking that answer with him. And…

How he talks about Thistle here… it’s interesting. He does not ask for him to be talked down, or captured or imprisoned, but instead “defeated”. Which Mithrun interprets as asking for his death… which is reasonable, because that’s likely how the vast majority of adventurers interpreted his words, too. Obviously as he was crumbling to dust he probably didn’t have the capacity to be particularly verbose or explain the complex backstory to how the kingdom ended up this way, but the effect is the same no matter how he may have felt with it. He asked for Thistle to be killed.

But… even in situations where he wasn’t under any such time limit to explain what was going on, he still seemed not to. Most glaringly:

Yaad seemingly has no idea that it was Delgal’s fault that Thistle sought the demon’s power. Obviously he couldn’t talk to him about it because Thistle was, uh, a little out there by that point, but why didn’t Delgal explain? Was he embarrassed? Mournful? Couldn’t find the words?

Delgal was scared of dying. He wanted prosperity at any cost, and how could Thistle possibly refuse? Did he even realize that what he was the one who pushed his own brother— One who basically helped raise him despite being a child himself, and in many ways is still a child— down this path? Or was it like watching an overzealous employee misinterpret directions?

The way Yaad describes things here makes it sound like Thistle simply dug too deep in his studies and fell into madness, but we know that’s not true. Delgal didn’t “suggest” he learn magic, he wanted a mage who could help himself and his people defy death, which he admits to Thistle openly:

So, why? Why not tell his grandson, at least, the truth of the matter? Did he worry it might make the remaining residents more likely to upset Thistle, and therefore suffer the consequences? Did he just not care? For what it’s worth though, Yaad does suspect the truth from Delgal’s behavior.

He “always blamed himself” for his descent into the dark arts. This is just Yaad’s observation, and that’s without knowing that it was quite literally Delgal’s fault Thistle went down this path. So, why? Why was it all kept a secret?

Of course, this made things ripe for the winged lion to manipulate to its advantage. Clearly despite knowing he’d pushed him into using it, Delgal still thought the lion was a force of good that was misused by Thistle as a result of his madness. His face in that last panel is particularly haunting. He looks terrible, gaunt and pale with overgrown hair and missing teeth. Had he gone mad, with grief and sorrow, as well?

Could he no longer see Thistle the way he did when they were younger? No one can ask him, because he died long before the story even began.

To go back to the original question, well, how did Delgal see Thistle? None of the previous points make a definitive answer any clearer, and I think that’s just brilliant. And so, so tragic.

[daistea]

regarding the possessive obsessive bf mithrun i imagine its to be expected that someone who hasnt had any desires for ?? years would get kinda intense abt the things theyre cultivating the ability to feel desire for !

RIGHT?? take my hand, walk into the light with me..

//Spoilers

Honestly, I headcanon that he was like that before the dungeon too. To an extent. There’s this post I like that implies that Mithrun didn’t actually truly love the elf girl from before, he just wanted to possess her because, you know, insecurity and complexes and brother issues.

He wanted to be loved, to possess, to feel worthy. I think that definitely could lead into possessiveness.

the most gorgeous boy in the world 🫣 kiss kiss smooch smooch, my little walking red flag

Anyway, post-demon those feelings go away. He still has emotions and a personality obviously. There’s still glimpses of who he was, but he doesn’t care about the old insecurities. They’re not there anymore. The inferiority complex is gone. He’s just Mithrun, demon killing machine, living only for one thing. I mean it’s canon that he’s already obsessive.

(I know the word ‘obsessed’ being used here is probably just translation liberties, but the idea still remains. If it’s genuinely ‘obsessed’ in Japanese though, I’ll be very pleased.)

I do think it’s possible to have a relationship with him at this point, but it won’t be conventional— that’s true of any relationship with him at any point in his life though. You’ll always be second. He’s not as invested, not as possessive, but I do think that’s just a natural part of his personality as well and it would still pop up on occasion.

THE MOST EVEN GORGEOUSER BOY IN THE WORLD 🥺 kiss kiss smooch smooch

Post-canon Mithrun has decided to live, to help make the broth in a stew or soup, to find use in himself. Yay!

I like the idea of Mithrun deciding to spend his life with someone simply because he enjoys their company, but my favorite thought is him developing a new desire— it’s not a simple desire for a relationship, though. It’s a desire for you. It’s very specific.

When Mithrun develops a new desire, he can’t ignore it. He needs it. He needs every ounce of it. If this desire is for a specific person, then he wants every ounce of them. This possessiveness doesn’t necessarily come from insecurity or inferiority like it used to. It’s from desperation and excitement. He trusts you. If he gets jealous it’s not because he thinks you’re going to cheat, it’s because he sees it and thinks, “They’re mine. Nobody else is allowed to have them.” It’s offensive that someone would even try to take you from him.

He wants his desire close to him. He’s clingy. He’s absolutely shameless. He doesn’t hide his feelings, but he doesn’t really say them out loud either, that’s just not how he rolls. He shows his feelings through actions. Are those actions genuinely unhinged sometimes? Yes.

You’ve got a friend who’s kinda worried that this elf guy is getting too attached? Mithrun has Cithis brain wash your friend into supporting your relationship so they don’t try to get in the way. Is that morally wrong? Don’t care didn’t ask

You want to do something very dangerous? Too bad, you’re getting tied to a chair so you can’t leave. Kick and scream all you want, he’s not risking losing you.

And he does it all with a straight face and no dramatics, too. They’re very normal things for him to do, obviously.

He’s very normal about you, obviously.

He wants every bit of your attention, every touch, every second, every year you have to offer. Does he say that out loud? No. But he wants it.

And when Mithrun actually wants something, he’s going to meticulously tear apart the stars one by one to get it. He hasn’t really wanted anything in 40-ish years. Doesn’t he deserve it?

[room-surprise]

glad ya like glass eye! I’d you don’t mind me asking, what are your thoughts on it?

I did like it, I'm happy to see people writing stuff about Mithrun, and about Milsiril! I've already passed your fic around to all the people I know, so hopefully some of them will read it too :) I particularly enjoyed seeing Milsiril and her behavior being highlighted. Sometimes I run into hot takes that she isn't that bad, that she's a good mom to Kabru, but I think she's probably not a very healthy person to be around if you're unable to maintain boundaries... For example, if you're a child, or a disabled person who can't tell her no. (I don't think that she's actively, intentionally malicious, but I do think she's a bad parent...Even if she's a good teacher. Teaching and parenting are not always the same thing.) I think having her be the one to give Mithrun his glass eye, and showing her thinking of Mithrun like one of her dolls, is exactly spot-on, and a great bit of inspiration. Or course she thinks of him as a broken doll, and enjoys fixing him to look the way she wants, cutting his hair, dressing him up, etc. I particularly loved the way you described Mithrun barely acknowledging her, and how she kept talking to him, did things like force him to look at her, and said things like 'I can say whatever I want to you' and 'you should be grateful that the canaries need you'. I also liked the bit where she commented on preferring the ears of shorter-lived races, but how she knew better than to say anything out loud about it. And the bit where she briefly had Mithrun's attention, but then it immediately wandered away once she stopped talking about his obsession - or at least, seemed to wander away, obviously Milsiril's POV is going to be flawed. I don't think you explicitly say it in the fic, but I think your stance is that the elves are a deeply abelist society, and I agree with that. I think because they live so long, anything that reminds them that death and disability may one day come from them is considered the MOST socially taboo, and so they prefer to just not see or acknowledge that disability, disfigurement, or old age exist. I think a huge chunk of Milsiril's character is Ryoko Kui yelling at the top of her lungs into a megaphone "here's some red flags, but I'm not going to spell it out for you, connect the dots yourself"... Milsirl hates interacting with peers or people above her, prefers to play with dolls that she can completely control. The only people we know she willingly interacts with are children from short-lived races (so they have even fewer rights than elven children, she can do anything she wants with them and nobody will protest), Canary inmates (she's shown repeatedly with Helki, who has notched ears) and Mithrun, but only after Mithrun is catatonic. Writing about Mithrun when he's in a particularly limited state (deeply depressed? Partially catatonic? I'm not sure what the best words to describe it would be) is extremely challenging, and though you were writing about it from Milsiril's POV I think you did a great job, and offered some much-needed perspective! Honestly I'd love to read about Mithrun's POV from you, if you get inspired to write about something like that! And it made me think about what sort of interactions she must have had with Malthus (my version of Mithrun's brother, in my fics) because yes, she would have interacted with him for sure when she came to visit Mithrun! I can talk more about this if you (or anyone else) wants, just send me an ask - I don't want to hijack this one to talk about my own stuff though, lol.

Thank you for sharing your fic with the rest of the fandom, and thanks for writing to me! I don't know if you read my fic, but if you do, I hope you enjoyed it! I know abelism and learning to deal with it is a major theme.

[room-surprise]

Thank you for making this post!

Ever since the translation of the winged lion page dropped, I've been seeing people say "this is proof that Mithrun's family physically abused him, or that Mithrun was afraid of being physically harmed by someone." But I don't think this is in any way indicated by the manga, world guide or daydream hour, and seeing the exact Japanese words used on this page and hearing what they mean just strengthens my opinion.

Emotional neglect and abuse can be just as damaging as physical abuse, sometimes even moreso because the abuse being intangible can make it harder for the victim to even identify what is happening as abuse. Especially if the specific type of abuse is societal and widespread... Then it just becomes a normalized part of life.

Kui has shown us characters who have been physically harmed in the past (Laios by other boys, Kabru by Milsiril, Mickbell and Kuro by various people), but she shows us nothing like that with Mithrun. If she wanted us to know that he was physically abused in the past, she would have told us somehow.

I very much doubt that a random sentence in a part of the world guide that isn't even about Mithrun would contain "secret information" that reveals something completely new, and hugely important to Mithrun's character like physical abuse.

I think the lion page is just repeating the information we already know about Mithrun... That he was emotionally afraid of other people, insecure, had a huge inferiority complex, and desperately wanted to be liked by everyone.

All it would take is a single drawing of a raised hand, or a bruise, or Mithrun flinching away from a family member to make it clear that there is a physical harm element to his backstory, but there isn't anything like that in the manga, or any of the extra materials.

Meanwhile, we got a whole comic about Kabru's blue eyes and how they caused him and his mother to be ostracized, which is hugely important to giving context to Kabru's personality.

What Kui did show us is that Mithrun's brother is neglected and ignored because he's imperfect (disabled, ugly, not very smart, doesn't have silver hair and eyes), and Mithrun is treated better because he was "superior."

Why is Mithrun "superior"? Because he's the opposite of all those things that made his family abandon his brother.

This means Mithrun knows, deep down, that if he wasn't "superior" to his brother, he would also be thrown away by his family. So he has to be perfect. His greatest fear is becoming like his brother: unwanted, unneeded, left-over.

So when he's sent to the Canaries... he wonders what he did wrong. Wasn't he perfect enough? Was his family always able to see through the mask, and know that he wasn't actually superior? Did they finally decide that they loved his brother more, despite Mithrun trying so hard to be perfect at all times?

That's why Mithrun's desire is a world where "no one will emotionally harm/betray him." He wants a world where everyone loves him unconditionally. A world where he can trust the people around him... Because he's never experienced that in his life (except from his brother, who he resents for it. Why is his brother, the failure, the only one who loves him? It's insulting to Mithrun's ego.) Mithrun may in fact believe it to be impossible. In the dungeon he is play-acting with shadows and illusions, fake people who will only say what he wants to hear.

That's why the demon refusing to finish eating him is both such a huge insult, and a point of trauma. Mithrun believes the demon could see through to his true nature, and saw what traits and qualities Mithrun thought made him better than his brother, and took those things away from him: his good looks, his able body, his silver eyes, his beautiful sharp ears.

All of Mithrun's self esteem and ego depended on him having those things, and so of course Mithrun desired to preserve those qualities more than anything else... So the demon eating Mithrun's desire to protect and keep those traits was probably the most delicious thing the demon could eat. The only thing Mithrun truly cared about was being better than his brother... Because being better than him was the only safety he's ever known.

It is of course possible that Kabru omitted information about Mithrun being physically abused in his attempt to make the story easier to understand... However I think if that was true, Kui would have mentioned it in Mithrun's biography in the World Guide... IE: "Kabru left this out, but actually..."

(As an aside, I do think it's very possible that Mithrun may have already been self-harming before he went into the dungeon, and it just got worse afterwards. Self harm is common for people who live high-stress lives.)

i think some people get confused about mithrun's wish "for a world where he would have no enemies and no one would harm him" and assume that this means physical harm mostly. i'm not an expert in japanese, unfortunately, but i think the translation is pretty good, because it clarifies the meaning by using both words "harm" and "enemies". original meaning seems to be rather broad.

that part of the sentence in the original says [ミスルンは自分に仇なす者がひとり もいない世界を]. here it uses the verb [仇なす], which means: "to do (someone) a wrong, to do (someone) an ill turn, to take revenge, to resent, to bear a grudge". it's used in conjunction with the word [者] which means "a person" or "people". so, this combination of words basically describes any type of person who has ill intentions toward mithrun, who wants to do mithrun wrong. it might not include hurting him physically. it's also interesting that sometimes this combination literally means "a person who inflicts vengence", which could be used to describe post-dungeon mithrun...

[room-surprise]

I don't want to spoil everything that I have in Mithrun's chapter of The Essay, but this is a great post and I wanted to add on some thoughts:

I've always felt that Mithrun's story hinges on the fact that he barely had desires before they were eaten. He was a chronic people-pleaser, chasing after the validation and love of others by making himself into whatever others expected of him, to the point where he denied himself things he wanted, for example the snake person that he and his brother both had a crush on, and that Mithrun didn't pursue. My guess is this happened because Mithrun knew it would make him look bad/put his family in a bad position, since he though the snake-person was untrustworthy.

I think if you'd asked before-Mithrun what he liked, there wouldn't be anything he actually cared about because his whole persona was fake, and designed to appeal to those around him. He'd lie and tell you whatever he thought you would like to hear the most. He had to be perfect to prove that he was better than his brother. Being like his brother in any way was probably Mithrun's worst nightmare.

Mithrun most likely didn't even really want the crush (as shown by the completely passionless cheek kiss and dead-eyed expression, and lack of Kui showing any sort of genuine lust/love between them), he wanted them because he wanted to deny his brother and prove that he was better, using the crush as a status symbol, not because he actually loved or lusted after the crush that profoundly.

Mithrun is paranoid even before he becomes dungeon lord, he doesn't trust anyone... But the core of his desire is to be loved and desired by others.

But of course Mithrun also doesn't actually believe it when people express desire for him. How could he? There's no "him", it's all a lie. They love his money, his status, his good looks, or what he can do for them, but nobody loves the scared, vulnerable Mithrun hidden inside, who knows he's worthless, ugly and horrible.

(Nobody except his brother, whose love Mithrun rejects and resists. He hates that his brother keeps trying to love him... probably because that unconditional love makes him feel guilty and ashamed for how he's behaving and thinking... But he can't help it, he is terrified of being "dragged down" to his brother's level of undesirability, and being cast aside by the family and society, who all consider the brother unworthy.)

So why doesn't the demon finish Mithrun off? Because Mithrun's desires are shallow and unsatisfying. We know the demon prefers complex and unique desires, and everyday desires like having enough food to eat, being safe, being loved unconditionally, are so common and boring that the demon doesn't really care about them. Everyone wants those things, they are the most basic, core desires every living thing experiences. The demon got bored of eating Mithrun, or was getting so little out of eating him that it just stopped. The demon decided Mithrun wasn't worth eating.

How much would that devastate someone whose deepest, most profound desire was for someone, anyone, to desire him? Even a horrible monster with infinite hunger thinks he's not worth consuming. Even with Mithrun trying to fling himself into the demon's jaws, the demon keeps pushing him away. No, Mithrun, you have that little value.

I think in a way starting to devour MIthrun was the demon granting Mithrun's greatest desire. Mithrun wanted to be wanted, but he's conflicted about it: he's also terrified of being wanted because he can't believe it's actually real. And of course, like any living thing, he's afraid to die, and if the demon consumes him completely, he will die.

It's even possible that as he was being devoured, as fear overwhelmed him, his most powerful desire became "I don't want to disappear" and it was stronger than "I want to be consumed", and so the demon granted that desire instead.

One last thing I'll toss in: I won't give away the details yet but the name Kerensil may mean something like "the powerful horned family" or "the silver horned family", and so although Kui hasn't explicitly told us, I think it is very likely that the Kerensil family's coat of arms might feature a goat, and that's why the demon appeared to Mithrun as a goat - just like it appeared to Thistle as the Winged Lion. It's a symbol they trust, and that they assume must be a sign from the divine realm, because of its connection to their family/kingdom.

Man, isn't Dungeon Meshi great!!!!

goats are frequently used as imagery to represent demons/the devil/etc and are one of the recurring animals referenced in the ars goetia's physical descriptions of its demons (as are lions, including a winged one), so i think having the demon appear to mithrun as a goat is useful narratively—his backstory establishes the nature of the demon as an ontological evil. it appears first as soft and small and white—almost like a lamb, which is similarly loaded imagery in the opposite direction—and grows huge and hungry and definitively goatlike. this tells you that the demon will first try to convince you of its innocence, but that the more it gives, the more it takes. by the time you recognize its true nature, it's too late.

but it isn't quite an ontological evil, it's just a living, starving infinity that will do anything to be fed. and the connotation carried by the image of a goat does not begin and end with the devil; as animals they're known for their voracious appetites.

when mithrun tells kabru his backstory, that is the audience's first introduction to the demon, the first confirmation that it even really exists, and having that sort of dual imagery sets the story up on both sides. we know now that we cannot trust the demon. later, we'll know that it's a creature driven by hunger like any other.

i think it tells us something about mithrun's personal arc too, though, particularly with regard to the revelations that mithrun is a deeply insecure person, that his true "last" desire was for it to finish him, and that he, like the other dungeon lords, missed the demon because it gave him love. a goat will eat anything, but his still spit him out.