#not this isn't about actual real world issues like someone being honest to god racist and screaming slurs 24/7

[schnuffel-danny]

I cannot stress enough that as an USAmerican you need foreign friends who barely speak English, because that's the only way for you to realize that half the discourse that happens online only matters to a very small percentage of human population, and all of those people are chronically online USAmericans

[rainbowloliofjustice]

My question is why are you thinking so deeply on a fictional race of people that don't even exist?

And more so, why is it really "only orcs" that are an issue? Hell, zombies are often portrayed as "always evil" by virtue of the fact that they're undead creatures trying that are just feeding and turning others into them. Even demons are often portrayed as "always evil" minions of Satan and yet there is hardly ever an issue with them. Hell, even in settings where Satan many not exist, demons are still often portrayed as "always evil" because "that's just how they are". Why is it so focused on orcs when there are so many other races (whether in DND or not) that are 1. Not human and 2. Get portrayed as "always evil" yet it is never an issue?

Hell depending on where you look nagas, mermaids/sirens and even fairies are considered "always evil".

Gary has also been dead for a good few years at this point. Even though logically it makes sense if someone believes in that, but you are forgetting one critical issue...

A lot of people don't believe that.

Most people don't actually believe that certain groups of people are inherently evil. You can portray certain groups of very clearly not human species as "always evil" or "always good" without actually believing in biological determinism.

You're seriously trying to apply real-world logic and philosophy to a world where magic exists, people can raise the undead, and deities can be (to varying degrees) actually real. It's like trying to apply the real-world logic of someone that hates women and would (I suppose logically) murder a prostitute to explain why playing GTA is bad or why it is bad that the player is allowed to do that to steal their money back... and therefore being able to murder prostitutes should no longer be a mechanic in a game where you are committing various other acts of criminal activity.

It honest to god does not make sense as to why you are trying so hard to apply philosophy to a game where you have more races than just humans. especially because DND has humans that are expressly said to come in various skin tones and features. It makes zero logical sense to zero in on why orcs being always chaotic evil is philosophically bad because of biological determinism even though you have humans... right there. As a completely separate race. With no boundary or constraints on how they can look other than what is possible for a human.

If DND was a game where all you had were humans and all the White (TM) humans were good and any humans that are Black (TM) were bad, then the logic that it isn't a good idea would make sense.

But when you have races of humans, orcs, elves, halflings, gnomes, etc. it makes no logical sense to zero in on why orcs being inherently evil is bad because you have literally every other race in existence, including humans, that are not inherently bad or evil.

The biological determinism of orcs has very little effect on anyone that actually lives in the real world.

The Racist White Karen (TM) calling the police on black people for just walking their dogs or some shit isn't thinking about how they're so similar to orcs or calling them one because she thinks black people are inherently suspicious. And she certainly didn't get that line of thinking from looking at a DND book and thinking "Wow, orcs are inherently evil and therefore, black people are too!"

Orcs are also no more biologically possible than elves or mermaids. If one day people started looking like orcs, then maybe this would have a point... But they don't and therefore, it doesn't.

To be completely honest, it sounds like you are 1. Reading too much into fiction where you can literally make it to where gravity is non-existent if you so desired, 2. Think that because you have philosophical objections with something means everyone else has to and therefor, you are Right (TM), or 3. Go outside and/or actually play DND with people that do things other than being terminally online

@takashi0 the thread has already gotten long enough, so I think it’d be prudent to write this as it’s own post.

You responded to my friend Renardie’s response saying that you weren’t going to read it, and I’m going assume that’s because it was long, so I’m going to try to summarize, with a little of my own thoughts mixed in.

First of all, I know that you’d agree with me that racism is something that does not necessarily have to be directed at black people, nor does it come exclusively from white people.

With that in mind, in the original tweet, only the word ‘racism’ came up, but not the word ‘black’ (it wasn’t till the 2nd reply). The issue is not so much that orcs are supposedly a caricature of black people. The problem is the idea of a living creature being “inherently evil”. Admittedly, the excerpt says that Orcs were not inherently evil like the Gnolls, but there is still the concept of “biological determinism” present.

Also, with regards to Tolkien, although D&D is inspired by Tolkien’s works, it’s ultimately the work of Gygax, who believes in biological determinism unlike Tolkien, and it isn’t terribly difficult to see how that manifests in the official lore for D&D.

But the bottom line is, my friend Renardie’s point was that this wasn’t about black people specifically. This kind of language could have been used about white people. The problem is the idea of biological determinism, an idea that is often used as the justification for racism. Personally, I would not agree with the original tweet that this was blatant racism, but I would say I am concerned by the underlying pattern that I see.