#noelle's strength and kris's possession

[infizero-draws]

girl what do you feel about kris' and noelle's relationship in snowgrave i want to know

OK OK. first of all thank you for specifying "in snowgrave" because if you just said their relationship in general i would literally never stop talking.

second tho, im really bad at putting how i feel about character dynamics into words because often there's just soooooo much to be said and different ways of looking at it and i get overwhelmed if i try to make some all-encompassing analysis. so let it be known that whatever i say here is not the full picture and there's so much more i could say.

putting this under the cut because i already know im gonna talk for way too long:

that being said oughghghhgh. where to fucking begin. i'd say the most fascinating (and disturbing) thing about their relationship in snowgrave is the weird romantic undertones. the fact that you have to pressure noelle into the idea of riding the ferris wheel with KRIS instead of with susie, her actual crush.

one of the most overt symbols of this weirdness is definitely the thorn ring. i know it isnt the only ring you give to noelle to equip, but this is the one that's mandatory for the snowgrave route. in order to do the route, you have to make KRIS give NOELLE a RING. a ring that literally HURTS HER TO WEAR. if that isnt a metaphor for a forced relationship i dont know what is

however perhaps the most damning and obvious one is of course this option:

i would say something about this myself but @/sorrybutiforgothowtomakecontent's tags on another one of my posts really summed it up:

im also aromantic so this really resonated with me. but yeah just going back to the first point they make. you literally HAVE to say "we're something else" in order to do the snowgrave route, which seems to make it pretty clear that this kinda subtext was intended. snowgrave can only exist with kris and noelle being "something else" because that's literally what snowgrave IS.

my favorite way to view snowgrave is through the lens of an arranged/forced marriage. again, the ring. it just feels so gross, especially because it's not just a regular marriage but an abusive marriage. snowgrave is abuser simulator (2021). im sure i dont need to explain that part

but the thing is, SNOWGRAVE IS NOT JUST ABOUT NOELLE and that's what makes it SO BAD. not only is noelle being forced to go through all of this, but KRIS is being forced to be the one who does it to her! kris clearly is EXTREMELY upset about snowgrave judging from the constant opportunities to choose more "normal" dialogue and abort the route, and from afterwards when they meet back up with ralsei and susie:

kris, under no circumstances, wants to do ANY of this. but they literally do not have a choice. snowgrave isnt kris manipulating noelle, it is US forcing kris into manipulating noelle. no one is winning here. they're both traumatized, and kris physically cannot even talk to their friends about it or show the true extent of their hurt. it SUCKSSSSS

and when you consider the idea that kris and noelle's friendship may have become strained specifically due to dess' disappearance, and kris possibly having something to do with that with the bunker and whatnot..... well now you're just forcing kris to hurt their friend AGAIN, when in the normal route this could've been their chance to finally reconnect. ahghrhgrhghh

going back to the marriage stuff, it's just so uncomfortable to see these two forced together like this. noelle is in love with susie. we dont know kris well enough to know if they have a crush on anyone (or if they get those kinds of feelings at all), but that doesn't matter. the fact is these two are likely not romantically interested in each other at all, and they are being forced together BY THE PLAYER. and it's horrific. (and even if one or both of them felt that way, this is still entirely wrong. they do not get a choice here)

@/hellspawnmotel's tags on this comic of hers will always haunt me, bcuz like. yeah. this is it:

there's also the fact that kris is naturally kind of a goofball; they're a prankster, especially it seems when it comes to noelle, as can be seen with the stepping off the button thing or the many, many examples from their shared childhood brought up by noelle.

but in the snowgrave route, kris drops this entirely. all of the alternate dialogue options to abort the route, which are very likely FROM kris, are very genuine and apologetic. kris is scared they're going to lose their friendship with noelle completely because of what you're making them do, and it's like they panic and all of their usual goofiness and sass is just dropped for genuine emotion. it's really sad to see honestly, esp in a full snowgrave route where you know that their efforts will be in vain.

OH OH ALSO. can't believe i haven't mentioned this yet. the fact that NOELLE KNOWS SOMETHING IS GOING ON WITH KRIS. THAT'S one of the things that really makes me insane.

noelle goes through ALL THAT, seemingly AT THE HANDS OF HER FRIEND....... and yet. she knows that something is wrong. she KNOWS kris, and she knows that they don't act like this. you'd think she would instantly cast kris off, it would be the right thing to do, but she doesn't. because she knows that something is off.

i cannot stress enough the fact that noelle is the ONLY one who seems to have noticed just how strange kris has been acting. sure other characters comment on kris seeming off or doing something they usually wouldn't do, but it is NOELLE and NOELLE ALONE who takes such notice of it and decides to actually DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

"i have to figure it out" is a mission statement, it implies that noelle (at least in the snowgrave route), is going to actively try to figure out what's going on with kris, WHICH IS CRAZYY and i feel like not enough people are talking about. not even kris's own mother has fully realized something's wrong. like she says, noelle seems to be the only one who's noticed just how off kris has been acting, and the only one who might try to understand and help them. genuinely makes me insane thinking of where that might go in this route oaugurhghh

im gonna stop here because im exhausting myself but. in conclusion I LOVE CHILDHOOD FRIENDS GONE WRONG!!!!!!!!! FAVORITE TROPE EVER!!!!!!!!!!!! anyways read this comic (all 3 parts) and you'll get it

oh also "kris, why are you wearing my watch?" still makes me go fucking insane

[random-autie-fangirl]

Kris and Noelle/Chara and Asriel parallels

It's like a creepy human and a soft hearted monster right?

(Yes, as a matter of fact. We do have time to talk about Kris and Noelle/Chara and Asriel parallels. This is kind of an "adaptation" (or whatever) of a tag ramble so mind the grammar)

who are both the same age ("It's a twin sized bed"), one is “good” and one is “evil”....and yet they're best friends! siblings even! (I say Kris and Noelle are siblings because of Asgorudy, basically) the monster is easily scared by the human...but they like scary things as long as they're not really dangerous. (of course, Chara did actually turn dangerous later but how was Asriel supposed to know that? Chara had always been kind before). So the monster responds to their sibling's morbid pranks and creepy faces with screaming one minute and laughing the next “AAAAHHH hee hee hee” or chewing them out with a smile. Kris and Chara Dreemurr are “unpredictable” but in the same way a rollercoaster or scary movie is...they're “the good kind of scary."

Noelle and Asriel are wealthy by birth with a big house and parents with great social status. Chara and Kris are children from nowhere implied to be greatly harmed by humanity. Their time with the Dreemurrs is the first time they have ever felt safety or peace. They have known Noelle and Asriel for just as long. Both Noelle and Asriel feel like they're weak, they feel that they should be stronger and they feel like their fear or crying are a fault of character. Both of them feel trapped where they are. He wants to climb mt. ebbot "when this is all over". (I will talk about this later but remember the echo flower conversation) Noelle wants to see a city with shining lights. She wanted to see the stars back in Undertale.

...And then in both situations...“Kris” (actually Red) and Chara tell Az and Noelle to kill for them and manipulate them heavily into agreeing, pushing them around expecting complete obedience, shaming them for their emotional responses, and using Noelle and Asriel's insecurities over said emotions. Promising “strength” as a reward for doing what they're told and comitting murder on the behalf of someone too cowardly to do so themselves. Asriel gets to see the surface. Noelle gets to see her city. But both only at the cost of destroying everything living there.

And we know the difference between these situations don't we? Kris was possessed but Chara was always in control. But Noelle doesn't exactly...so it seems that in both situations that the human betrays the monster. Destroys the spirit of the person who trusted them the most. Uses the monster for their physical strength, takes advantage of their emotional “weakness”. Treats Noelle and Asriel like a weapon rather than a person. Who was warm is now cold hearted. Whose presence signified safety was the biggest danger of all. what was once a joke is now deadly serious. They were the bad kind of scary. (Please note I know it's not actually Kris this is just what might be going through Noelle's head at first, you know, before she rationalizes it as a dream).

And yes, I also know that Chara was probably doing this for monsterkind's freedom but I don't care exactly? he's still a child, ... not a chess piece, not a weapon he didn't deserve to be used even for the sake of monsterkind's freedom. Asgore doesn't force Toriel to help him? Undyne doesn't force Papyrus to help her? done for “good reasons” doesn't make them a good person!

Just like it won't make Red suddenly a good person if the weird route somehow helps lead to a happy ending. Though I like to think that Red resets or leaves the weird route before it ever reaches its conclusion. In contrast I believe Chara went back to before they died and actively chose to do the buttercup plan again when it had already failed once. Also yes in the end Asriel was able to say no when Noelle never could but he paid for that disobedience with his LIFE. Deliberately! Chara had a save file. they could have saved themselves and Asriel but they chose not to. And maybe the reason was partially punishment!

And Yeah! That's all the parallels between Chara and Asriel and Kris/Red and Noelle! Thanks for listening! =)

[krispdreemurr]

[id: a comment from @lakeofclovers , reading "kris chooses to stay in the dark world". /end id]

The Fountain flows ever upwards, towards the black and empty sky. It washes through strange, dark colors that Susie doesn't have proper names for, colors that feel like inversions of the ones she knows. Her brain almost spits out some nonsense about a shadow rainbow, but she quickly discards that one as just dumb.

Still. Thinking about it is better than looking at Kris.

They're so small, she thinks. Sitting like this, head on their knees, arms wrapped tight around their legs. Disappearing into themself. She half wants to grab them, shake them, force them to unfold. To look at her. To do anything but sit there.

"So," she says instead. "That was..."

She trails off, but Kris lifts their head just a little.

"Horrible?" they say in that soft, scratchy voice of theirs. (The one they have when they're actually talking.)

"Was gonna go for fucked up, but yeah." She scoots closer. "...Look. I don't get all this stuff yet, but it wasn't you, right? It was--"

"It's the second time," they interrupt. "The. The first time--that's why Noelle's been... That's why Berdly--" They shake their head, shoulders trembling. "And I knew. I knew. And I brought you here. I brought mom here. Because--because I thought. Thought it would help? Thought--" A weak laugh. "I don't know. But it was me. My fault."

"It's not your fault, dude," she insists, even as she tries to process what she's heard. Even as she remembers Noelle sitting on that bed, the ground covered in fine frost. Even as she sees again the look in Noelle's eyes.

"It's not your fault," she repeats again. To convince one of them, at least. "You're possessed. You couldn't even fucking tell us about this, what were you meant to do?" She drags her hand down her face, feels it trembling. Forces herself to focus. "Look, we caught you. Miss Toriel's going to be okay. I'm okay. And now we know."

"You know, sure, but--" They swallow hard, lift their head fully. Beneath blue bangs, Susie can see the panic in their eyes. "I can't live. Without it. You can't watch me all the time. Or--Susie, what can we do? What can we..."

"I don't know," she answers honestly. "You know I suck at this sort of stuff. But we have smart friends. We have people who get this. Ralsei'll know something. Noelle..." She hesitates. "She deserves to know. And maybe she noticed more. We'll seal this fountain, go back home. Talk it out. Okay?"

A long silence. Kris looks at her, expression unreadable.

Finally, they give a single, hoarse laugh.

"Okay."

Relief surges in her. She stands, moving towards them. Offers her hand. "Cool. C'mon, let's get out of here, this place sucks."

And they take her hand, standing, raising the soul in their tight-clenched other hand.

She understands, but a second too late, a second too slow, because the world is going white and they're stepping back as they push her forward, with a strength she never knew they had, and she tries to grab on again but she's falling--

In the moments before the Fountain closes, they're smiling at her.

And then the world ends.

[deltarune-au-domain]

SOULgrave!Player, what will you do if you ever end up with a new party member to manipulate next chapter? Will you still keep Noelle as your vessel? Or will you abandon her to possess this newer, more interesting one?

"Well... I suppose it's, up to the real world, isn't it? I'm mearly a personification of all of you who chose such a path. I really have no mind of my own.. my dialog right now isn't even me, now is it. What would you choose? Would you manipulate because you can? Out of curiosity? Or maybe you're just an onlooker to this story. And when I say you, I mean everyone reading this right now. Without a proper voice you're all forced to read this with your own within your head.

What do you crave? Readers, listeners, watchers. Those who hear our tale through the grape vine. Dose power and strength matter to you? If you, us, we... if we were taken from Noelle in a similar way we were taken from Kris, would you care? It's up to you. Players."

[agentravensong]

additional thought:

if it ends up being true that going further down the weird route allows kris to become more free from our / the SOUL’s control…

perhaps we/it will switch vessels, to control someone more willing to listen. someone desperate, for help, or freedom (similar to spamton’s misguided ploy for freedom), or power. strength.

(noelle gets possessed truthers untie)

[teruthecreator]

thinking about dess holiday and the possibility of her being trapped in the bunker/in the dark world inside the bunker and like. what the outcome of that will all be once she’s out. a lot of this is simply my own thoughts and speculation but figuring how weird and foreboding the bunker is, i have a feeling that the “knight” is residing inside there and that the bunker will contain a dark world inside of it (possibly one that is larger than all the others???? since i imagine it is like. the spawn of all the other dark worlds. or maybe the portal to all the dark worlds since it seems like the dark world has existed for a very long time but that’s another idea for another post gjbrjhgrbhj) that our heroes will need to traverse through in order to end all the fountain bullshit. now i don’t necessarily believe dess is The Knight; more like, she is One of the knights (my current theory is that she is one, gaster is another, and now kris is one too since they opened a fountain. the only knight any of the darkners encounter is gaster bc he’s the one who sews the seeds of doubt and meta-fuckery into the secret bosses’ and the normal bosses’ heads, but he’s not necessarily the ones opening the fountains all the time. i could also be completely offbase tho and wouldn’t care lol). but regardless of all of that, i think she is trapped in the bunker and, once the fountain is sealed in the bunker/the day is saved, dess can finally re-enter the light world

but what does that mean for her? what does that mean for a lightner who has been trapped in the dark world from anywhere between a year and several years? 

well, it’s very obvious that lightners are more powerful in the dark world than they are in the light world. they possess magic and abilities they cannot usually access, and they have the ability to materialize weapons out of thin air. this likely means that they have more access to innate power within them--i haven’t seen any lightners use magic in the way monsters used magic in undertale, so it can be assumed that normal lightners (human and monster alike) cannot use magic unless in a dark world. but lightners are also still susceptible to damage that can carry back to the light world. this example is mostly easily exemplified by berdly when he electrocutes his arm in the neutral route and comes back to the light world with it seemingly paralyzed. so, while they are more powerful, they are not invulnerable. 

another thing of note is the food situation. in chapter 1, susie mentions how it feels like everything she eats doesn’t matter in the dark world (i’m paraphrasing but it’s something like that). “food” in the dark world translates to health items that are usually food-adjacent but not made of actual consumables; and since health (in the sense of game mechanics) is only something you need to worry about in the dark world, it can be assumed that your health is tied more to your magic than it is your actual physical health since none of the lightners sustain any permanent affect or injury from being downed or damaged in battle. this means that, in the dark world, everything you do is related to maintaining your magic--not your actual body. and, while you can survive in this way for a little bit, extended periods of time without maintaining proper physical care might be...bad. 

so what does that mean for dess? someone who has had no access to food or proper healthcare for years? 

well. a lot of things, probably. 

i imagine her growth is pretty stunted, due to her body not having the nutrients to grow. though she was a teenager when she got “lost” she probably still had a few years left of growth to do, meaning she’ll end up being a bit smaller than her younger sister (a fact that i’m sure will annoy dess greatly and delight noelle immensely). more severely, though, she’ll be malnourished and extremely frail. i imagine her stumbling out of the bunker and not even having the strength to keep herself upright, the weight of the real world suddenly crashing upon her. i think the next few months for dess post-canon would involve either being hospitalized fulltime or being bedridden at the holiday home, making frequent trips to the hospital for checkups and next steps and all that. i’m imagining post-canon dess with a really kickass cane that she decks out in flames (”so everyone knows i’m still a badass!!”). i’m also imagining a cane because i think it’d be REALLY cool for her dark world weapon to be a scythe (kinda playing on the angel theme but on its inverse--noelle being more of a savior angel while dess is more of an angel of death) and that would translate really well to the light world object being a cane! i also think she Definitely develops a permanent light sensitivity (she was in a place of pure darkness for YEARS with eyes that had to learn to adapt to it--that does not bode well for when she’s back in the light). this means she’d have to wear prescription sunglasses pretty much everywhere to prevent any sight issues/nausea/disorientation. i think it’d also be really cool if she had some heightened awareness due to being in the dark world for so long; maybe she can access her magic more easily than lightners Or darkners (since my post-canon concept has the two worlds merging and the darkners living in the light world with parts of their dark world inserted), or maybe she just has super acute hearing and stuff? idk! possibilities are endless! 

other than that i think she would probably struggle to connect with people the same way she did before. everyone’s different now, thanks to all this, and maybe dess feels partially responsible for that? being someone who was opening fountains as a cry for help? her and noelle would struggle for a while. they both missed each other so much but they both only remember old versions of the other person; versions which have undergone MASSIVE change in the span of those years apart. i think dess would feel especially guilty for how lonely she made noelle. unintentionally, of course, but i’m sure dess was somehow hearing that speech noelle gave kris in the cyber world and was SCREAMING to try and reach out. but something something barriers something experiment something gaster something something, so she couldn’t reach out! and that sucks! but over time the two would find their new rhythm and life would settle into a new normal :-) 

she also like. didn’t graduate? so yeah. she’d probably get her ged. education slay <3 

[azzy-the-christian-furry]

My Crackpot “Fun Gang = Four Horsemen” Theory Because You Guys Asked For It

Kris is War; they’re the party’s leader who initiates battles, they’re referred to many times with military titles and terms like being dubbed a “tactician” in Chapter 2 or a leader who “commands” in the Snowgrave route, and they wield a sword much like how their respective Horseman is described as wielding one. And not just any sword, either; the sword War wields is described as being a machaira in the original Hebrew version of the Book of Revelation, which can be a general term used for any kind of blade-weapon from a cooking knife to a surgeon's scalpel, but usually refers to a specific type of Greek weapon, a big dagger or small saber used by riders and horsemen, which Kris’ sword has a striking resemblance to. Plus this is admittedly a stretch but War is described as riding a red horse (specifically a fire-red one) and Kris is in possession of a red SOUL.

Noelle is Death; she’s the first party member so far who can kill (or at least nearly kill) enemies and there’s the whole angel symbolism which could potentially tie to the “angel of death”. And this is admittedly another stretch, but Death is described as a riding on a pale horse, which many assume to mean white (which fits with her Dark World attire), but pale in the original text is the Greek word "chloros" which literally means "a pale green", a sort of greenish hue that has slight hues of yellowish and of ashen thrown in, which ties in to some people seeing Noelle’s hair color in the Dark World being of a similar color. Plus you can control Kris to command Noelle to freeze enemies and “proceed” and what inevitably results from war in one way or another? Death.

Susie is Famine; not just in the sense of her constantly being hungry and eating normally inedible things, but the original text portrayed Famine as bringing about such by having the prices inflate and creating a huge social gap between the very poor and very rich by destroying the middle class, which could translate into many people believing Susie to come from a poor household or being homeless. And, once again, another stretch, but Famine is portrayed as riding upon a black horse and Susie prominently features black in her Dark World design and Famine is described in the original text as carrying a zugon/zygon, which can translate to one of two things: balancing scales (which could be interpreted as a pun based on it commonly being assumed that Susie is some sort of reptile), or a "yoke", the frame around the neck of beasts of burden that worked in fields, such as horses or oxen (which could tie in to how a small minority see Susie as being genus equus or a reference to Susie’s strength and hard-headedness).

Ralsei is Pestilence, which is probably the biggest stretch here, but he does have quite a few ties to healing and medicine and has the lowest HP of the main three party members. The horseman assumed to be Pestilence has also been interpreted as Conquest, which could refer to him encouraging Kris/War to recruit enemies and bring them to Castle Town in a sort of peaceful, non-violent conquest. Plus Pestilence/Conquest is described as riding a white horse (the same color as Ralsei’s fur) and wearing a crown, which could tie into Ralsei being the Prince of Darkness (admittedly, the crown mentioned actually refers to the crown or garland winners of games or battles received back in Greco-Roman times, but still).

Given that in the Book of Revelation, the Four Horsemen are called upon by God to bring about the apocalypse so that the Second Coming can happen and the faithful can ascend to Heaven, my personal theory that the four of them will end up unintentionally bringing about the Roaring and the return of the Angel, with the aftermath of the calamity potentially merging the Light World and Dark World and restoring magic to the Monsters permanently. Then again, that’s just what I think might happen.

————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

I like this. It would be super cool symbolism to become canon.

We know Berdly almost starts the Roaring himself, and it seems that Kris (or, in my opinion whoever “we” includes) is opening these fountains. So it wouldn’t be a far stretch to say the Fun Gang could start that. Heck, maybe the discarded vessel will even come into play later in that regard?

[cutest-silly-nb]

Berdly: EarthBound features many traditional role-playing game elements: the player controls a party of characters who travel through the game's two-dimensional world composed of villages, cities, caves, and dungeons. Along the way, the player fights battles against enemies and the party receives experience points for victories. If enough experience points are acquired, a character's level will increase. This pseudo-randomly increases the character's attributes, such as offense, defense, and the maximum hit points (HP) and psychic points (PP) of each character. Rather than using an overworld map screen like most console RPGs of its era, the world is entirely seamless, with no differentiation between towns and the outside world. Another non-traditional element is the perspective used for the world. The game uses oblique projection, while most 2D RPGs use a "top-down" view on a grid or an isometric perspective.

Spamton: [[Unlike its predecessor, EarthBound Beginnings, EarthBound does not use random encounters. When physical contact occurs between a character and an enemy, the screen dissolves into battle mode. In combat, characters and enemies possess a certain amount of HP. Blows to an enemy reduce the amount of HP. Once an enemy's HP reaches zero, that enemy is defeated. If a specific type of enemy is defeated, there is a chance that the character will receive an item after the battle. In battle, the player is allowed to choose specific actions for their characters. These actions can include attacking, healing, spying (reveals enemy weakness/strengths), mirroring (emulate a specific enemy), and running away. Characters can also use special PSI attacks that require PP. Once each character is assigned a command, the characters and enemies perform their actions in a set order, determined by character speed. Whenever a character receives damage, the HP box gradually "rolls" down, similar to an odometer. This allows players an opportunity to heal the character or win the battle before the counter hits zero, after which the character is knocked unconscious.]]

Noelle: (what are they talking about?)

Kris: (i don't fucking know i just want to show ralsei one of my favorite video games how the fuck did the spambot get out of my pocket)

Susie, bursting in through the door: PK FIRE MOTHERFUCKERS

Kris: ARGH WHAT THE FUCK SUSIE *falls out of the bed*