#nobody look at me I'm just tossing stones at the water and hoping they skip. i feel like I'm treading dangerous ground here

[swinging-stars-from-satellites]

ok so another thing re: Jason and Tim being mirrors of a sort — Jason can kill so many people because he believes it's the answer, because he believes some things are worth killing for, but he can never truly avenge himself by killing the Joker. he wants to, but he never really could because it's always been about someone caring enough, even after his death (even after his resurrection), to kill for him. it's about a scared little boy wanting his dad or brother to save him, yes, but it's also about proof that he's worth killing for, worth breaking their rules and toeing at the edges of morality. and Tim... Tim won't kill anyone even if he believes they deserve it or that it's worth it. but he could, and I think in the right circumstances, would kill the Joker. not just for vengeance, like Jason wants from Bruce, but partly — because even with all the baggage between them, he still considers Jason his brother, and family is worth more to him than almost anything. but also because Tim is a pragmatist, he's logical where Jason is emotional, and he's lived under the shadow of the things the Joker has done his entire career as Robin and beyond. at some point, pragmatically speaking, the net gain of life saved has to outweigh the cost of blood on his hands. Jason can't kill the Joker, for so many reasons, but he's also begged his family to avenge him, to protect him where they failed before and to protect everyone else who will inevitably be hurt and killed in the same way, indefinitely. and Tim can understand that, if not completely than at least at face value. Tim's moral code isn't Bruce's, he's made his own and won't stray outside it — but, in certain circumstances, he's willing to expand it if the cost is too great to not, or for a worthy cause. and family, to a kid who didn't have much of one growing up, is absolutely worth it. Jason is so deeply emotional, so caught up in his own pain and fear and anger and hurt, but Tim is calculating and pragmatic, and they've both carved out their own paths outside of the one Bruce might've wanted them to take. Jason can never avenge himself or the people of Gotham, because it's too much of a mess mentally and emotionally. but Tim can clear away that mess and see through to the heart of the issue, and it's not hard to see a solution. TL;DR, Jason can't kill the Joker. but Tim could, I think, in the right set of circumstances.