#no one believes the IDF and their ridiculous propaganda

[fairuzfan]

Sorry one more thing I wasn't going to talk about but if you had asked me about the binational state/land thing maybe... in 2016, I might have given a somewhat positive answer but I think that since then, Israeli society has become exponentially more racist and anti-Palestinian. Since then we had the Abraham Accords, Sheikh Jarrah, Massafir Yatta, the highest child martyr count in years, and now finally a full blown genocide. Many Palestinians who previously advocated for equality in a single state look at all this, especially in recent months and think "how can I live side by side with these people?"

The vast majority of Israeli society is not against war for the sake of the Palestinians, they're against war for their own safety. They say as much. Hell, look at standing together. The founder guy says "our security is tied in with the Palestinians'". So if it wasn't tied with the Palestinians', you wouldn't care? And I get sometimes you need to introduce people to ideas gently, but their entire organization language emphasizes "shared pain" when there is an oppressor/oppressed dynamic they aren't even hinting at. How can anyone achieve safety if you won't even admit you have power over your Palestinian org members?

Even Brothers in Arms claims to want to "strengthen democracy" but they completely ignore Palestinians have never experienced democracy in "Israel". So what's the point strengthening your own standing when the most disadvantaged still are at rock bottom?? Plus your whole group represents the IOF reservists/members, you have no intention of helping Palestinians when you are the primary oppressors. And this is not an insignificant group in israel!

Not many Israelis are willing to put themselves on the line to protect or even advocate for Palestinians. I mean 7+ months into a genocide and what did israeli society do other than protest *netanyahu*? Hold up flour bags during the flour massacre??? The people serving in the idf are your friends and family and community. Tel Aviv is an hour away from Gaza. Surely you can do *something* physical!! They had people at their Gaza borders starving Palestinians on purpose and people just... watched it happen. Not to mention the IOF, which many Israelis are a part of, participates in the genocide and has been lauded for their "heroism". I look at that and I think "how can I expect you to seriously consider my rights as a person? How do I know you won't miss your old status and reclaim it?"

We've seen Israelis *celebrate* and *ridicule* our martyrs and people. So like where us the good faith in all this? Where can we work with some of these people and think "Yeah I believe they'll respect my inherent dignity as a person"?

Which binationalism relies on this. You need to have good faith between communities for this to actually happen. But when one community won't even acknowledge it's status as an oppressor at the height of oppression? Then what?

Israel as a country has never faced any retribution for its actions for 75 years. No one is holding them accountable. The country teaches propaganda in its schools about the Nakba. There is not serious consideration for Palestinian rights in Israeli society. Why would they suddenly decide to participate in a project that puts Palestinians as equal to Israelis when they learned all their lives that Palestinians are ruthless, unreasonable people who can't be reasoned with, and Israelis are logical, poor victims who are actually the ones who need protection from the Palestinians!

It just is mind boggling because I see people constantly complain about the way they hear things from Palestinians these days like "all Israelis need to leave". And they go on to say "why would you be so hateful/why would you say that" and don't think for a minute they're experiencing a televised genocide of their people (which they could have ended up in their shoes! People forget that Gaza has multiple refugee camps! Any one of us could have lived there!) And conversely are looking to Israeli society for them to do anything and they see nothing. At least think for a moment why they would say these things given the context of the situation. There's a genocide going on! And you're worried about what the people who are experiencing their people's genocide are saying because you're worried for the society conducting said genocide?? Let's deal with the matter at hand first!!!!!!

[rosalesbeausderholle]

Oh I'm sorry but this is just... So so so so utterly ridiculous. I don't care if you don't believe those particular images, I don't care if you think it's a fake moral panic. You're being wilfully obtuse. You're going "my side is the righteous one, so of course no rapes were committed" and that's just naive and ignorant. It's the Harry Potter-fication of a very complex international conflict, with good all pure and bad ultra mega evil guys and it's, frankly, ridiculous, for anyone to make a statement like this. Though the left has always had issues addressing sexual violence.

The reality is, men rape. Men rape in peace times and in war, men rape children and grandmothers, men rape all kinds of women regardless of circumstances. Men, all men, regardless of what side they're on, use rape as a weapon of war. Yes, the IDF has done plenty of times, but so has Hamas (they're... yihadists, they're literally yihadists guys they're not known for respecting women's rights). Normal, regular civilian men in both countries will rape as well, in war and outside of it, as will men in literally every single country of the world.

You can support the cause of the Palestinian people, who are at the brink of destruction by a genocidal settler state, who do not deserve to be destroyed, without being so obtuse about the tactics of war, especially the tactics used by extremists. All men, given the chance, will use rape as a weapon of war. So saying "well those photos don't actually show a rape victim" is only your opinion, and even if you're right, you need to come to terms with the reality that rapes will indeed happen/have happened on both sides. Yes, even the one you personally support. And yes, that's true even if the other side uses accusations of mass rape as propaganda. Don't be so obtuse, it's frankly embarrassing.

[misshorrorotaku]

First, Israel didn't declare war, Gaza did. Hamas, the elected government of Gaza, invaded Israel and killed 1400 innocent people and kidnapped over 230 more.

And no, they're not under occupation. Gaza and the West Bank are, in fact, separate states and have been for quite some time. So your idea that they can't declare war or Israel can't respond to their declaration "because they have no state" is just fucking ridiculous.

And there are no IDF bomb threats, they're warning Hamas' human shields to evacuate before they strike the buildings Hamas is launching missiles from.

Secondly, sure you don't honey. That's why you're ignoring the truth and instead choosing to believe Hamas' propaganda.

Thirdly, food and aid do enter Gaza. And even did so before Gaza declared war. Hamas stealing it does not mean it doesn't enter, moron.

And actually the event you're referring to? They opened fire because several groups of men in fact took the opportunity to attack the military at said fences. If you'd bothered to actually research that event you'd know that they did not, in fact, attack unprovoked.

Intentionally, precisely 0 journalists have been killed by Israel. All the ones that have have been in a literal fucking war zone. XD That's kinda why being a war reporter pays so damn much. It's dangerous. But so far there is zero proof Israel has intentionally targeted any of them, and that's DESPITE the VIDEO PROOF that a lot of journalists participated in the October 7th massacre.

Same goes for the doctors. Precisely zero were killed intentionally. The rest were in a fucking war zone, in hospitals Hamas uses to house soldiers and the hostages (making them valid military targets). Israel didn't even destroy these hospitals, choosing instead to capture them. And I know this cuz I do research instead of believing everything an echo-chamber screams at me.

Gaza is not fighting for freedom, they already had it. They just made the mistake of electing Hamas into power, and they refuse to relinquish that power. And really hun? You want to talk about civilian Israeli's having bad words about civilian Palestinians? Bitch please, Palestinian civilians cheered on and continue to cheer on the massacre of Israeli civilians. There are even cases of Palestinian civilians attacking and killing Jewish people who aren't Israeli just for daring to visit Israel for the summer. If Israeli civilians having negative views of Palestinian civilians is some horrific crime, what do you call what Palestinian civilians have done?

Nah. How about you stop being an idiotic child?

We are witnessing the grotesque reality of the martyred Palestinians and thousands of their massacred children being written off as mere afterthoughts. The way western media outlets steadfastly refuse to call the Israeli aggression and onslaught for what it is, which is genocide and ethnic cleansing, is just another way of dehumanizing Palestinians. 

[swawesome-wow]

If you wanted people to be informed, you'd have mentioned Palestinian terrorists and Hamas. You'd have mentioned the suicide bombings and hundreds of murdered innocent Israelis. You'd have mentioned the Palestinian leadership that first declined coexistence in 1948 and rejected every offer of peace since then. You'd have mentioned lies and propaganda and blood libel against Jews, thought in Palestinian schools. You care about playing the victim. But it's an old game. And you'll lose.

I wasn’t going to take the time to respond, but it’s summer break, and I refuse to let you hide behind anonymity and not learn a little something while you’re there.

1. “If you wanted people to be informed, you’d have mentioned Palestinian terrorists and Hamas. You’d have mentioned the suicide bombings and hundreds of murdered innocent Israelis.”

Oh yes, how could I forget to talk about Palestinian terrorists and Hamas. The thousands upon thousands of innocent Israelis killed. Wait, what’s that? 1,213 Israelis have been killed since September 29, 2000. 9,478 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. I have never claimed that Palestinians have not killed innocent Israelis. Those numbers are only since the year 2000. Israel has occupied Palestine for 50 years, give or take, as you yourself aptly admitted by bringing up the conference in 1948. There is immense loss on both sides, though one has lost nearly 9x as many lives. However, comparing it numerically is extremely reductive, not only are you wrong numerically, you’re ignoring why people have been slaughtered on both sides, and what brought everyone to this point. There is no “justifying” the murder of Israelis by Palestinians, there is only understanding why these killings happened, holistically, and understanding the context.

People refer to it now as the Israeli-Palestinian “Conflict, Divide, etc.” But before recent, heavy political and monetary support of Israel, it was called the Palestinian Genocide, for good reason. 

2. “You’d have mentioned the Palestinian leadership that first declined coexistence in 1948 and rejected every offer of peace since then.”

Let me make this very, painfully clear. 

Palestine does not owe coexistence to Israel. Israel is an occupying state, an oppressive state, and one that has committed genocide against the Palestinian people. 

To bring it down to your level of understanding, the Palestinians were there first. Palestinians of EVERY religion, including Judaism, though I’ll touch on that later. The Palestinian leadership has been lamentable, no one is denying that. But let me put it this way:

Let’s say America was invaded today, by, say, Canada. (Sorry Canada, you were the first country to pop into my head, since I owe half my citizenship to you.) After things calm down enough for the leaders to meet, Trudeau says to *shudder* Trump (or even Obama, in this fake scenario, would make the same decision), “Hey man, I know you were here first and everything, and I know we bloodily invaded you, but like, let’s just coexist, like on that bumper sticker you guys are so fond of.” Do you honestly think the President of the United States of America, would EVER agree to something like that? Seriously? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Even 50 years later, America would still be fighting for its freedom from its maple-drenched oppressors. So why are you holding Palestine to such ridiculous standards? 

I am truly saddened by the violence that has stemmed from this entire situation, but until Israeli soldiers stop wrongfully arresting, imprisoning, and killing Palestinians, even children, I don’t think you can possibly hope for “peace.”

My grandmother, a few years back on a return visit to Palestine after she fled so many years ago to Canada, was stopped at the border wall (yes, there is a wall there, in case people were unaware) for eight hours, for no reason. She was not charged with anything, neither were her daughters, my aunts, that were with her. Her crime was being Palestinian. I wonder what that sounds like. 

Oh yes, and because of that wall, the already pitiful economy of the Gaza Strip has crumbled, and they have no way of rebuilding it. Even if Palestinians find jobs in Israel, they’re backed up for hours each day just trying to get processed through the wall in either direction. They’ve been economically choked off from the rest of the world, yet Israel continues to receive monetary aid as if they’re in desperate need.

3. “You’d have mentioned lies and propaganda and blood libel against Jews, thought in Palestinian schools. You care about playing the victim. But it’s an old game. And you’ll lose.”

Once again, I need to make something crystal clear. So listen up. \

Palestinians do not hate Jews. They hate the Israeli government. Not Israelis, not Jews, the Israeli government, because that is the body that is responsible for Palestinian suffering. 

Since I was in elementary school, any time someone found out I had Palestinian parents, they immediately made quips or even stated directly that I must hate Jewish people. I had someone say “oh, so you’re anti-Semitic.” I’ve had people ask me if myself or my parents are terrorists (and I used to be Christian, now I don’t practice anything, my point being that I can’t imagine how hard it is for any Muslims). This misconception is so widespread that it’s toxic, killing any reasonable discourse on the subject by people stamping me with the anti-Semite sticker. So, I’m sorry, I haven’t had the chance to play the victim. Let me know how that goes for you. 

What I said earlier, about all religions coexisting? Let me elaborate.

For the thousands of years that Palestine has existed, Christians, Muslims, Jews, ~whatever~ lived side by side, happily and comfortably. Another misconception is that the Israeli movement came from within Palestine, which is just plain misinformation. This is a very, very reductive explanation of what actually happened, forgive me for not being more detailed:

When the second World War ended, there were thousands upon thousands of displaced European Jews (mostly German as you might imagine, but elsewhere as well). When Europe (and America) tried to figure out where to help these people relocate, no one wanted to take them in, deciding it would be too difficult to reintegrate. Palestine had the room and the kind heart needed to take them in, so that’s where many were relocated, en masse. But it was a finite time that Palestine agreed to host these refugees as refugees, they would eventually need to either integrate with the Palestinian people (gain citizenship, etc), or decide where they would want to move, if not stay there. But the relationship began to change, as some began to perpetuate the idea that they belonged there all along, and that the Palestinians were the ones that needed to leave or integrate elsewhere. As with most conflict, religion took a match and set it to kerosene, as suddenly Jerusalem was the center of the occupier’s claims to the land. While I won’t try to argue about it as I’m not informed enough on religious history, I will say that it is entirely possible to create a religious homeland without literally invading the country and creating a religious state. Church and state are separate for a reason, and have to cooperate, not override one another. 

So there are plenty of Palestinian Jews that understand and are outraged at the Israeli government, though they have been left out of intentional eviction, arrests, torture, and killings. 

COMIC RELIEF BREAK that is actually somewhat related but I promise it’s funny:

One time my mom was telling me about something that happened over in Palestine to friends of our family so word made it back to us. Like I said, the three major religions were living pretty happily together, especially where these friends lived. The IDF was evicting all the Palestinians from a neighborhood to allow Israeli settlers to take over. Our friends were one of the families kicked out, and they were best friends with the Jewish family next door! So when the IDF came knocking on the Jewish family’s door to offer them the keys to their best friends’ house, (they were Jews so they were allowed to stay with the new Israelis coming in), the husband of the family was FURIOUS. He started to back-talk, offended at the very thought, but his wife (the really clever one in this story) shut him up and took the keys. The husband couldn’t believe his wife would betray their best friends like that, but she just rolled her eyes in a “you idiot” fashion. They had the keys now, and they promptly gave them back to their best friends so they could reclaim their property! I always thought that story was hilarious :D

While I am disgusted at the thought that you could somehow compare this entire subject to a game, if that’s the only way you can comprehend such a vast discourse, I’m happy to oblige the metaphor: The only “loser” here is the one who can’t think for themselves and hasn’t done a little goddamn research, you soggy walnut. 

Speaking of research! Here are a couple of resources for those who have been following along! I honestly can’t say that the second is an unbiased source, however if you’re looking for straight statistics and numbers, check out the first link! It’s where I got the exact numbers I used above. If you want the international law/human rights perspective, check out the third link. Thanks y’all!

http://ifamericaknew.org

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israels-genocide-towards-palestinian-arabs/5591341 (thanks canada)

https://ccrjustice.org/genocide-palestinian-people-international-law-and-human-rights-perspective (really good source explaining the international law and human rights perspective on the issue)

[unnounblr]

Part of me has considered the possibility of. Having U.S. troops stationed at some of the refugee camps, and protecting some of the ports and aid workers? If Biden says that protecting the aid coming into Gaza is actually that important, that's a way to do it.

If someone in the IDF wants to attack a truck delivering food, then potentially sparking a conflict with U.S. military personnel could make them hesitate.

That's a ridiculously naive thought though, and I don't necessarily think it's likely in reality, given the brutality U.S. troops have themselves engaged in.

I. Sorta think having soldiers on the ground is maybe preferable to missile and bomb strikes, broadly? Bombs are indiscriminate, cannot be reasoned with. Are machines. A person can be fought and killed, but can also be talked to, negotiated with, has intent, can change their mind. Military training is supposed to make them more obedient, but even then there's a chain of command, sergeants, lieutenants, captains, at some point someone somewhere has an opinion and can make a decision. "Maybe don't shoot kids, actually". You can't tell a missile that.

At the end of the day though. What putting U.S. troops into a conflict does, necessarily, is giving the U.S. government in general, and the Executive branch and President in particular more actual control.

Congress votes on how to spend money, and the president signs what they pass, (or vetoes it, but Biden hasn't) but once the U.S.A. gives the Israeli government money, or gives them weapons or bombs. Israel has control over what they actually use those things for. You can blame the U.S. for voluntarily giving up that control by giving those things away, for not recognizing the pattern of behavior of what those weapons have been used for in the past, but. There is still, systemically, a degree of deniability. Albeit a limited one.

Once actual government employees are involved though, that goes away. While U.S. troops can be part of joint operations, and temporarily under the command of an allied officer and unit, someone in the U.S. chain of command still has to approve it. An U.S. soldier can't say they did a war crime because Netanyahu told them to, because Netanyahu isn't his boss. Biden is, ultimately. Trump or Harris will be after. Well, November, but actually January is when the inauguration would be.

Additionally. One thing Biden and the administration has said in the past is that he's been listening to the reports fed to him by the U.S.'s intelligence agencies, and by Israel's intelligence agencies, and. There's been. An implication. That he ignores some of the reports coming out of Gaza, because he believes those are lies and propaganda by a Hamas-controlled government, and he ignores some of the reports on social media by Palestinians because. Well he's an old man, but also because social media can't necessarily be vetted.

Some of the news coming out of Gaza has, at times, been misleading, and there has been disinformation and misinformation.

The U.S. military has a system of reports and. Don't misunderstand me, the military lies to the public all the time. But it typically doesn't lie to itself. It wouldn't be as powerful as it is if it was that disorganized.

So, ultimately. Deploying troops would give the U.S. a lot more control, and would allow the Executive and legislative branches access to information that they don't necessarily have, that can inform their decision making.

The optimistic possibility is, they report that the Israeli government is actually criminal, the tiktokers are telling the truth, or perhaps the IDF or one of the West Bank illegal settlers shoots at a U.S. soldier, and the U.S. invades Israel and deposes Netanyahu and the Likud party.

I think more realistically, the U.S. military joins in and does as much if not more war crimes and genocidal action, and makes things worse.

But at the end of the day. Whatever happens, once U.S. troops go in, the U.S. government is responsible, completely, for whatever those troops do.

washington post says we're sending troops to israel...so much bad is gonna happen because of this bullshit and we're gonna deserve it

"Defense?" What could you be keeping the world safe from, if nothing on Earth is more warmongering rabid murderous and violent than you are?