#ned having to explain to his daughters why they can't take people hostage

[alaynasansa]

Modern AU -> Sansa doing a PowerPoint to explain to Ned why they must stop the old singer from leaving Winterfell

[ladycatofwinterfell]

I interpreted that Catelyn scene as if Jon didn't exist, her family would not have faced tragedy. Yes, she was blaming herself for not loving Jon but she was also indirectly blaming Jon for even existing. I also hated the part where she said her love with Ned was better than a passionate love affair in the words. As if being married off with a bridal price, passed from father to husband like an object is better than genuinely falling in love. I never liked Catelyn and it's not because she has strong opinions or because she started the war or whatever bs people hate her for I just think she's kinda...in her own head?? She lacks perspective tbh like she can't put herself in other people's shoes. Like when she tells Renly and Stannis: just get over it your brothers, I cringed because they obviously do not care about their relationship and only care about being king. They were raised differently than you Cat! I get that she's a victim of the patriarchy and she is coping so I really try to give her the benefit of the doubt but idk maybe I'm not mature enough for that. When characters like Brienne and Sansa exist, it makes Catelyn look bad (that scene in the books when Cat asks Edmure why are all the peasants here is yikes!). That being said, the fact that she has flaws makes her compelling. Also don't get me wrong, I do not think she is an awful person and I DO NOT blame her for ignoring Jon, that's all on Ned. Sometimes I think I dislike her because I kinda see myself in her. I have tried so hard to like her because her haters suck but I just can't.

It’s completely fine, anon, you don’t have to like Cat. As long as you don’t act like an ass about it you can dislike any character you want, I don’t judge you. Sometimes one simply doesn’t vibe with certain characters for different reasons. I don’t necessarily agree with you but I like that you explain your reasons instead of just going “catelyn sucks because she’s mean” as I have seen a lot people do. Also, I genuinely really like this ask as it made me think a lot, so thank you, anon.

The rest will be under the cut because I got carried away with my answer and it got a lot longer than I had initially planned

And now, before I start explaining my view on this, I want to say that I’m no expert at analyzing media or anything else. I’m a fan of the asoiaf books, and I have watched got, that’s it. These are just my views on Cat and the parts that were mentioned in this ask. If anyone disagrees or would like to come with a different perspective, feel free to do so, seeing different views on a topic is good for everyone.

I’m going to assume you mean the motherless child scene, and from that I didn’t get the feeling that she blamed Jon as she not once mentioned him negatively in that scene. He was just a poor innocent child. She repeatedly said that she herself was a terrible person though, which conveys the message that she blamed no one but herself for how the situation turned out and found herself responsible for it. In other scenes we see her acting cold towards Jon, but in this particular scene she doesn’t seem to be angry at him at all, she’s only angry with herself. This in turn makes it seem like she actually is to blame and that she should have loved him, which is wrong. She had no responsibility to take care of her husband’s illegitimate love child. Though in show canon I thought of it as her trying to find a reason for why everything that did happen happened, because she had a hard time making sense of it. She looked back at things she had done that could have been considered wrongdoings and wondered if maybe she could have prevented the deaths of her husband and (as far as she knew) children.

You also mentioned the stone by stone scene. I rewatched it now, and I can sort of see what you mean as she can be interpreted as a bit judgmental in that scene. However, her intention wasn’t to tell Robb about how her love was a supreme love, it was to try to get him to understand that an arranged marriage could turn out good. He had to marry a Frey because that was arranged for him and bad things could happen to him and his cause if he didn’t, so she tried to make him believe in that a marriage to a Frey girl he didn’t know could be a good marriage. This by explaining that her arranged marriage was good. Fine, she didn’t immediately fall in love with her husband, but she slowly came to love him over the years and that could be the cause in Robb’s marriage as well.

What we also need to remember in regards to that scene is that that’s the way marriage works in Westeros. If you’re highborn you don’t marry for love, you have a marriage arranged for you for the sake of forming an alliance between two families. That’s not better than genuinely falling in love, but that’s the way it works. In this case it’s even more important since Frey is so prickly and might pull the rug from under Robb’s feet if he feels insulted. And Cat wants her son to see that, wants him to understand that it is dangerous to break a that important alliance. She tries to get him on a safer path than the one he’s going down. But she also wants him to know that he can be happy in an arranged marriage. She tells him about her and Ned to explain that it is possible for him to learn to love his bride, so that he might reconsider his choice.

Now to a quick one. I agree, Cat didn’t start the war. She took Tyrion hostage because based on the info she had he had tried to murder her son. Tywin “war criminal” Lannister started the war by sending men to pillage and destroy the Riverlands

On the next one I’m actually inclined to agree. Catelyn is a bit in her own head. On top of that she’s very stubborn, which makes it more apparent. She tends not to see things from other perspectives than her own, that is definitely one of her flaws. It doesn’t make her a bad person, but it is a flaw, and I can see why some people would have a hard time with that particular flaw. Though she’s not always in her own head, several times we are shown that she has a nose for politics and is actually quite good at understanding other people and their wants. She has perspective on several situations, and can change her mind if things changes or doesn’t turn out as planned.

When it comes to the conflict between Renly and Stannis I really get her frustration. Yes, she had trouble understanding their conflict and found it ridiculous as she was raised and lived by the words “Family, Duty, Honor” and the mindset that family always comes first no matter what. But at that point I think most people would share her thoughts, as she was in a situation where she had started to become desperate. She wanted them to stop fighting each other and understand that they needed to fight together against the Lannisters, who were everyone’s common enemy. This with good reason, they killed her husband and as far as she knew still had both her daughters. Of course she wanted them to stop their feud and unite for the cause of defeating the Lannisters.

I’m going to agree on the next one as well. Cat lives in a patriarchal, classist society and buys into that because that’s all she knows, no one can deny that she has a classist and patriarchal mindset. That’s what she was raised by, that was what she was taught. Cat is in many senses the perfect lady by Westerosi standards. But despite believing in the patriarchal society she’s also at times thoroughly frustrated by it, as we see when she starts losing her influence as an advisor after Ned dies. It’s an interesting internal conflict, and as you said, she’s coping. You mentioned Brienne and Sansa as examples of characters that make Cat look bad in this sense. I don’t agree with that, I think these three characters cope with the patriarchal society in different ways although Brienne has a much more sympathetic way to do so in the eyes of modern readers. Cat definitely isn’t innocent of having spread those views, as she tries to make sure her children live by them, but she’s also not the devil here.

But yes, although she doesn’t call them peasants, that scene doesn’t look great. I won’t deny that either, because it’s true. All the highborn characters, yes even your fave no matter who that is, are classist. And that’s not me trying to defend Cat, that’s just the truth.

As for your ending, yes, her flaws makes her a very compelling character. It’s what makes her interesting, perfect characters are painstakingly boring. She’s not an awful person, and she’s not to blame for the situation with Jon. That one’s definitely on Ned.

You’re also right in that her haters very often suck.

Thanks for your ask, this was very interesting and I hope to see you in my inbox again in the future!