#like did people really expect this to be Jac's Agatha

[justprincesssarcasm]

"That's not the Agatha" this "That's not the Agatha" that..

Babe that is kind of the point of What if...?

The most important thing is that she fucking slayed and was fabulous that whole ep.

Just enjoy it.

[criticalbeauregard]

how agathario could've won

EDIT: people are taking this post as me saying every ship needs a happy ending to have value or that the ending was bad bc they don’t end up riding off into the sunset. let me clarify this was just an idea i had (also without context for several jac interviews that have since come out)

i've been thinking a lot about the finale and how some people have been saying "what did you think was going to happen? you thought they were going to live happily ever after?" to which i didn't really have a good answer for but i've been collecting my thoughts and i have a bit of a "fix it" or alternate concept for ep 8 & 9 that could possibly turn into a fic down the road:

episode 8 is the earth trial and final showdown. i feel like the earth trial itself was pretty underwhelming in favor of sending jen and billy out of the "road" and also in the larger context of the rest of the episode i'm unsure of the purpose it serves. with the later knowledge that the road is all billy's design this makes sense, but agatha's growth (literally) in that moment alone seems inconsequential and essentially washes away when she exits the "trial" and sees rio. she says, with something that sounds like acceptance, "sometimes boys die." and she's in what would be rio's trial. she talks about life coming out of death, she literally grows a flower from a seed within the momento she carries for her dead son. it feels like an acceptance or understanding of rio's actions in a way. and possibly a nod to nicky not being fully gone. i would've liked (i suppose in a world where the road doesnt hinge on billy's knowledge of the coven members) for rio's trial to be more centered around her loss of nicky and agatha. the other trials focus on the greatest fears of the coven member associated with it after all. perhaps a trial that also forces agatha to reveal the true story of what happened to nicky to jen and billy, even ending similarly with sending the others away and finding true acceptance of what rio is and that she was nicky's mother too. maybe with prompting from the others and reassurance about how the truth is not "too awful" (which i think is a belief born of agatha's shame for not being able to protect nicky).

in the final showdown, rio is expecting a fight since agatha didn't make good on her deal. but agatha is coming to rio with something she doesn't expect, understanding. maybe rio thinks it's a trick and there's still some sparring there, billy then shows up and powers up agatha. rio asks which one of them is coming with her. agatha, injured, yells out "what would our son think of this?" rio falters at that. agatha talks about what she's learned and maybe even how that very nature she's hated for so long is what made her fall in love with rio to begin with. agatha wants to make a new deal, rio lets billy go and when agatha dies (a long long time from now) they will go reunite with their son together. rio regretfully tells her "that balance still must be maintained, i can offer only time" and agatha tearfully says "i know." they kiss, not a kiss of death, but of life. a renewal of their love. flowers bloom around them, all of the ones rio never got to give to her over the years. and when agatha opens her eyes again, rio is gone.

in episode 9 we see agatha and rio meet for the first time, agatha have nicky, rio play with nicky in the woods on some nights while agatha sleeps, everything else we see with nicky and agatha's relationship, rio and nicky's last walk and maybe also rio and agatha's first encounter after nicky's death, perhaps in which we gain some insight into why agatha is keeping up the witches' road con.

having heard the story during the earth trial and through witnessing her deal with rio, billy has a deeper understand of why agatha is the way she is. this reminds him of wanda and he realizes why agatha actually was so interested in what wanda did. she says the bit about him reminding her of nicky and how he always did even when he was young. he thanks her for buying him time, agatha tells him to make the most of it and that things might move quicker with another set of hands. "coven two." they go to find tommy.

idk lmk what you think and if i'm forgetting something very glaring but this idea was heavily inspired by @agatharkn3ss 's nicky's parentage theory post.

[darkshines1984]

So, i finally got around to watching the final two episodes of Agatha All Along for a second time (and this time on tv screen and not bleary eyed on my phone in the middle of the night). In terms of where the story line went, I pretty much expected it and had long since excepted Agatha was going to die and become a ghost like in the comics.

Was I super impressed by the two episodes? No. Episode 9 wasn't a bad episode in itself but it was a strange season finale. It felt underwhelming after the drama of the episode before. Episode 8 had a lot of good stuff but it felt disorganised and chaotic. I think it really contrasted against last weeks Episode 7, which brought a lot of threads together very intellugently and fluidly. Instead, so much was thrown into a short time in episode 8 that the threads of storyline just kind of touched base in the episode without truly intertwining. I think the episode probably needed to be ten minutes longer to fit everything in more comfortably.

Was it a terrible ending? No. I am happy with were it left off. Its a neat place to go from Agatha All Along to 'Wiccan' or whatever they chose to call the next series.

I know a lot of people are hoping for a season 2 of Agatha All Along but its not going to happen. Like Wandavision led directly to this series, this series was always leading to Wiccan. Not to worry though as, like Billy was the other main character in this series, Agatha is going to have a key role in his. It will no doubt be Jac Schaeffer again and this will allow time to explore more of Agatha's backstory. I will eat my hat if Rio isnt involved somehow in that series, especially as death will still be a theme. I also did really enjoy Billy's story and cant wait to see were it goes.

What they decide to do with Agatha at the end of that season will depend on if the MCU has further plans for her. If they do, then somehow she will come back to life (as she does in the comics). If they dont have plans, then the option is there to finally lay her to rest with her son, reconciled with her own past. You have to feel that in either of those options, Rio has a role to play.

Finally, although I love a redemption story as much as the next person, i am glad they didn't completely go down that line with Agatha. Yes she has some redeeming qualities but on the whole she is a pretty terrible person. She is selfish and cruel. She is a murderer and con woman. She made her own child complicit in those murders. Yes, I get she wanted to keep him alive, but that absolutely does not make her actions right. She is emotionally manipulative...i mean so manipulative she pretty much emotionally abuses and uses the literal embodiment of death. I dont think you have to ignore all that and even try to make excuses for her to still love the character.

I have to say though, if I was playing Alice's 'kiss, kill, marry' game with the last three women standing (i use the word standing with Agatha very loosely), I would be killing Agatha all over again. You couldnt trust her as far as you could throw her 🤣

So, I would just like to finish by saying thank you to Jac Schaeffer, her team and the cast for a great show and the amount of amazing queer representation. Also, huge shout out to the fans who have made so much content (fics, videos, gif sets, artwork, commentary etc). You have made this wild ride even better X

[sapphoshands]

I’d be curious about your Agatha thoughts (gives you a corn chip) because I too have feelingsTM about the “discourse” but I just wanted to say thanks for being a fun person to follow who has also been consumed by AAA brainrot but in a FUN way…like can we just enjoy fun things? Oy.

ONE CORN CHIP, you have poked the bear successfully (and thank you for saying nice things; i am glad my breakdown is enjoyable all around hahaha)

okay a couple people have actually poked me about this soooo. snark activated. rant unlocked. disclaimer, i have mostly been avoiding the tags so i'm sure this has been litigated elsewhere, but a few things annoying ME:

people saying the show last night is the wrong kind of queer. because. look. we are all just queer, okay. the show is queer. the show is SO MANY kinds of queer!

also did we accidentally erase the first five episodes because i don't know what show you [generic you] were watching but there has been intense lesbian activity on my screen since 'agnes' first sat down on her couch.

i also will be v sad if agatha and rio don't get at least one smooch, but we have three eps left? a third of the show? so i'm not exactly throwing a fit yet!

even if they don't smooch, their relationship has been such a joy to watch on screen and is so intense and involved and complex and fully-realised. like, we might not get a kiss, because i sure don't think we're heading for a happy ending, but... it's not like a kiss is what legitimises the whole thing, you know? IT'S THERE.

agreed that it's unfortunate we had a short ep last week and a long one this week, but i don't understand people who are saying we were short-changed last week specifically in agatha's trial. because. it is agatha's show. this whoooole thing. it is about agatha. all of it. all along. and it's not like a) she doesn't get the spotlight in everyone else's trial, or b) we didn't get enough character development for many many fanfics.

plus we got a long ep this week specifically so we could get more agnes and more agatha. i'm surprised they got away with putting so much agnes in the ep but oh my god i loved every second of it. kathryn hahn the manspreader dykespreader that you are.

fan hat off, notes hat on, i don't know what i would've cut out of the billy section. maybe a couple minutes of hospital time? couple minutes of bohner? not a lot of fat there! lots of stuff that's almost certainly going to have meaning to agatha's story!

some people will say cut the boring boyfriend but look. look. i am genuinely emotional about the interrelational queerness in this show now. i think this is a spectacular example of how stories that are overdone in pop culture generally can get a whole new life and vibe when they are seen through a diverse lens. this commentary on witchiness, queerness, otherness, coven as found family... it's saying some things, and it's not beating us over the head with them. we needed the queer billy backstory to make those work. plus, we're unlocking all new agatha feelings through billy and so the show has to give us some billy so we know why agatha has those feelings!

maybe i sound like too much of an apologist, and let's be real, i'm certainly not going to be rewatching the first two-thirds of that ep anywhere near as much as the entire rest of the season (so far). i'm not telling anyone they had to love it. i will also say, i've seen some reviewers talking about how this was the best ep so far and i REALLY side-eye that (and now i trust them much less). but i enjoyed the ep, way, way more than i expected. i almost kind of give a shit about billy now, and i absolutely give a shit about agatha's feelings about billy.

that said, it's not an attack to not have rio in the ep (when jac schaeffer has literally said they were rationing her). and neither rio nor billy are the most important parts of agatha's story. but they're both building towards it, in my opinion. we haven't lost anything by getting a little billy; we've immensely deepened the world of the show and agatha's character.

so there is one corn chip worth of thoughts! and now, back to writing fic.

[stereogeekspodcast]

[Transcript] Season 5, Episode 6. Agatha All Along Spoiler Review

Down, down, down the road, down the Witches' Road we go! The Stereo Geeks were surprised and awed by Agatha All Along, the spin-off of WandaVision. What did Ron and Mon love about the show? What would they have liked to see? Who were their favourite witches? Tune in to this spoiler-filled review as we travel through many miles of tricks and trials.

Listen to the episode on Spotify.

Intro

Mon: Hello and welcome to a witchy episode of Stereo Geeks. We’re reviewing Marvel’s Agatha All Along. I’m Mon.

Ron: And I’m Ron.

Ron: This episode is full of spoilers. So, please, watch Agatha All Along and come back to listen to our episode.

Mon: We’ll also break up this episode in two parts. The main section is about the first 7 episodes. And then we’ll dig into the two-part finale. 

Background

Ron: Agatha All Along is the 2024 spin-off of Marvel’s hit Disney+ show, WandaVision. Agatha Harkness, played by Kathryn Hahn, was introduced in WandaVision as Wanda and Vision’s quirky neighbour, Agnes. Near the end of the series, Agnes was revealed to be Agatha Harkness, a powerful witch and custodian of the only other copy of the Darkhold. Full disclosure, I had to do some quick research to figure out the Darkhold stuff because I remember we encountered it in the Ghost Rider season of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Anyhoo! Back to Agatha. To our immense surprise, the song ‘Agatha All Along’ got so popular that Marvel announced a spin-off series soon after.

Mon: I was shocked and surprised that people were calling for an Agatha show. Partly because I’m not all that into witches and occult lore. But also, I couldn’t figure out what the Agatha show could be about. A prequel set before WandaVision could turn her into a one-dimensional villain. One set after? She’s depowered, what’s the point of that?

I was sceptical about this interest. And even more so when Marvel announced the show was definitely happening. I was least interested in watching Agatha All Along. But, this is Marvel, so I was definitely going to check it out.

Ron: I was listening to something which reminded me that it’s been three years since the show’s announcement. Honestly, I forgot it was even going to happen. The turmoil at Marvel and Disney? Seeing so many promising projects cancelled for no reason? There was no reason to think this show was going to get a chance. Especially not if it was set to focus on female characters.

Mon: Yeah. It fell off my radar, as well. And then I heard about the 2024 Fan Expo Canada surprise panel about Agatha All Along. Followed by an invite from the Disney PR team to attend the activation at the event. 

Ron and I have written about how meh the activation was over at WWAC. That didn’t enthuse me to the show, but I began to feel that familiar pull of intrigue and excitement. Listen, this is the MCU – this is our childhood dream come true. Superheroes every year, every week? You know I’m down for it. So, my spidey-senses were tingling well before we attended the panel.

The Agatha All Along panel recap is also at WWAC. It was at the panel that my interest was piqued.

Ron: Agreed. The activation at Fan Expo didn’t really excite me. It was three outfits and we could barely see them because of the dark lighting. The witchy volunteer who surprised us was the most fun part of it. But the panel started to change my mind. Jac Schaeffer and Kathryn Hahn talked about the othering of witches by the patriarchy and how Agatha All Along will see the coven reclaim witchiness. Feminism. Witches? I was definitely intrigued.

Expectations

Ron: Agatha All Along picks up three years after the events of WandaVision which left Agatha powerless and living out a fantasy in Westview. The pilot episode of the show sees Agatha living out a true crime parody of Mare of Easttown. Agatha is able to break out of the fantasy with the help of Teen, played by Joe Locke. He’s not actually called Teen, but his identity is hidden by a sigil so nobody can hear him say his name.

Ron: Teen wants to travel the Witches Road to get power and guess who else doesn’t have power? Agatha! They team up to access the road, they’ll need a coven with specific witchy abilities. Agatha is the powerless Spirit Witch. Among her reluctant recruits are the Divination Witch Lilia, played by Broadway legend Patti LuPone. Then there’s Powerless Potions Witch, Jennifer Kale, played by Sasheer Zamata. Next, Protection Witch, Alice Wu-Gulliver, played by Ali Ahn. And randomly Mrs Sharon Davis, aka Mrs Hart, played once again by Debra Jo Rupp. Mrs Davis is recruited as the Green Witch, although she is not a witch, but a regular Westview citizen.

Ron: That’s an amazing cast. And it’s rounded off by Aubrey Plaza’s Rio Vidal, the actual Green Witch of the coven, who has a ton of history with Agatha. That history is romantic and bloody. Teen also gets to go as part of the coven but not as a witch. He accesses the road as Agatha’s familiar. This is how I find out humans can be familiars. How fascinating.

Mon: I know nothing about witchy terminology. So I’m fascinated by everything.

Ron: I had no idea what to expect from Agatha All Along and I really wasn’t as invested in this show as so many Marvel fans. But that first episode was so entertaining, I was instantly in love. Though I am a bit sad that the first episode confirms that Wanda Maximoff is dead. Boo to Multiverse of Madness for killing Wanda like that.

Mon: Ufff, do not talk to me about Multiverse of Madness! As mentioned, I was not sure about the show at all. But that first episode was like… what am I in? Because I love it and I want more. I love that Agatha All Along continues the same theme of WandaVision – each episode is a different genre of television. I didn’t expect that on Agatha, but it’s a great way to tie the two properties together. And showrunner Jac Schaeffer makes the genre changes on both shows make sense.

Ron: The best thing about getting different genres every episode is that we also get different sets, different costumes, and a whole new vibe. 

Mon: This show looks so good. The sets and costumes, my word. Love, love, love the look of this show. After all the boring CGI Marvel’s been throwing at us, Agatha All Along is a nice change of scenery. 

Ron: Not to mention, this show was basically an adventure-of-the-week show. I don’t know why we don’t have stories like that on our screen anymore. I love adventure stories. Between Agatha All Along and the new Tomb Raider show on Netflix, I finally felt like someone had got the memo that adventure stories are the best.

Mon: See, this is what I like about Agatha, and it was a huge reason why we all loved WandaVision. These are serialized stories, but told in an episodic fashion. So you get that half-hour of fun, while knowing there’s more to be revealed later. 

Mon: And, I want to point out that one thing I loved about Agatha was how each episode stuck the landing. You ended on a high. This has become a huge problem in today’s streaming age. Studios want tv to be one long movie, so they don’t know how to make short-form stories that have an ending or a cliffhanger. Disney is particularly guilty of this. Like, I love The Acolyte – best Star Wars show out there, in my opinion – but that show has to be watched all at once, not weekly. 

Agatha, on the other hand, even if the episode had some slower moments, it knew how to get you excited while the credits rolled. What do you mean Agatha doesn’t know who Sharon is? Wait, is the whole coven dead? Is Teen a witch? You’re left asking so many questions. And you’re pumped. That’s how you end an episode – or seven.

Ron: You’ve hit the nail on the head. WandaVision and Agatha All Along know they’re TV shows. Each episode needs to tell an entire story while also giving you teasers for future stories and arcs to come. We got cliffhangers every week and that made me desperate for every Wednesday. And with every episode, I was satisfied and exhilarated.

Disappointments

Mon: My one big disappointment in Agatha is that I wish the show had been more obvious and direct about why women have been condemned and cast out as witches. Now, in the universe of the show, witches are real. But, keeping that in mind, why were they hunted, mistreated, killed? Jac Schaeffer had hinted the real-life vendettas against women declared to be witches informs the show. It’s there in the show, but doesn’t play a big part. 

After all, women who have broken the so-called norms of society have always been punished. The coven in Agatha has as well. I wanted to see more of a through-line between reality and fiction.

Ron: I agree with you. And I think I know why we didn’t get to see these backstories of the witches. The show is only nine episodes long. If it was a 22-episode series, we could have delved deep into the coven’s lives before this show. We could have seen how they were wronged by their societies, communities, and the patriarchy. But in nine episodes? There just isn’t time.

Mon: That being said, I’m glad they didn’t show us a ton of violence against the ladies. We didn’t need that to understand what they’d been through.

Ron: Yes. Just listening to Jennifer Kale talk about how her powers were taken by a man she’d trusted as her mentor? That was enough to make me squeamish.

Favourite moments

Mon: There were so many great moments in this series but what are our favourites?

Ron: Am I going to sound insane for saying I loved watching the witches fly on broomsticks. 

Mon: Not going to lie, despite the janky CGI during the flying scene, I loved that moment of profound joy the ladies were having. 

Ron: The coven was being rather disparaging about having to ride sticks but that shot of them flying across the moon on their brooms warmed my heart. For the witches in the MCU, that’s become a derogatory image because witches have been so maligned. But they get to reclaim the power of flight and pay homage to their true witchy selves. It was quite an empowering moment. Also, I really need to see someone, anyone, reclaim the witches from that TERF in the UK.

Mon: Absolutely! 

Ron: Also, I really loved the part of episode six where we see Teen’s point of view of his meeting with Agatha. It was so funny. 

Mon: So dang good. Like, this is what I love about the show – it’s unpredictable, but so perfectly acted. And executed. Black hearts everywhere. 

Ron: Also, so eminently rewatchable. I already can’t wait to rewatch this show because of episodes 1 and 6, but also episode 7, and all the easter eggs that we have most definitely not clocked.

Mon: Oh, Agatha demands a rewatch.

Ron: There were also some characters moments that I can’t stop thinking about. Like Jennifer shoving everyone out of the way to escape the first trial. Every witch for themselves! 

Mon: Oh, Jennifer’s so much fun to watch. That woman’s a survivor for a reason. Get out of her way. 

Jennifer also gets some really funny lines. Like in Episode 7 when Lilia goes, ‘we are not cool, teenager’ and Jennifer retorts ‘ooo, using the full name’—the dialogue delivery, the expression, the line. Jennifer’s memorable. 

Ron: And, this shouldn’t be a funny moment, but when Teen announces that Sharon Davis is dead, Agatha’s only comment is ‘who’s Sharon’? That was hilarious! It’s supposed to be a sad moment. We’ve lost a coven member and someone that Wanda meanly tortured for no reason. But Agatha just has to be Agatha and straight up forgets Sharon’s name. The entire coven calls Sharon Mrs Hart for so long. I love a good running gag and this one worked for me.

Mon: Oh, Agatha. You are the worst. We love you.

Mephisto

Ron: I feel like we need to talk about Easter eggs. But there are so many we’ve missed. We need to rewatch it. Obviously, the biggest one is Mephisto. I don’t know what the obsession is with Mephisto but MCU fans have been predicting Mephisto’s appearance for years. So many people thought he’d be the big bad in WandaVision. People were greatly disappointed and are now very excited that Agatha All Along has confirmed his presence. I don’t really care about Mephisto but he’s apparently such a big deal to fans that I had to mention him.

Mon: This Mephisto thing is so annoying. I get it; he’s an integral part of the boys’ history. But these shows and stories about female superheroes – like WandaVision, She-Hulk and Agatha All Along – they aren’t just vehicles to introduce dude characters from the comics. It frustrates me that people will tune into watch these amazing ladies and their fabulous stories, just to find out which man is going to swoop in to steal the show. 

Of course, I’m about to eat my words, aren’t I? I want to be mad at all the people invested in Agatha All Along because of Joe Locke’s addition and the identity of his character. The show was much more than that, but they were right. 

Teen

Ron: We should probably talk about Teen’s real identity. In a way, we all knew Teen would turn out to be Billy Maximoff because of the amount of speculation online. Sometimes I wish people would share their theories with their friends’ groups instead. Literally the moment Joe Locke was cast, everyone was screaming he was Billy. It probably doesn’t help that there are so few gay characters in Marvel that casting an out gay actor was a dead giveaway. But having said that, until Teen’s spotlight episode, I was still unsure. He could’ve been Nicolas Scratch, Agatha’s son. But Rio was pretty categorical when she told Agatha that Teen wasn’t hers.

Mon: Yeah, they set up the mystery of his identity well, but all the speculation ruined it. It’s a no-win situation. If you make a story assuming everyone knows who he is, you’ve lost a sense of mystique around Teen’s appearance. But, they went with all mystery, and well, so much for that. 

Mon: Despite the lack of a surprise, I must say, Joe Locke has been impressive. His performance is superb—he’s the right amount of campy, adorable, and emotional. 

It’s rare to see a film or show with a bunch of adult and older ladies with one young dude, so I was intrigued by how Agatha All Along would work that dynamic. Unlike a property where the genders are reversed, there is no ewwww or creepy factor to Billy being a young man amidst a bunch of ladies. He’s also not automatically mothered by the ladies — he has a different relationship with all of them. 

I have genuinely enjoyed watching Locke on the show. Which is a relief because it’s obvious that Marvel is setting up the formation of the Young Avengers. 

We have a solid group of characters played by a mostly great cast of actors. Now, if they can strike the right balance of introducing a young generation of characters without alienating us older fans, that would be amazing. 

Let’s talk about Agatha

Mon: So, the grande dame herself. What do we think of Agatha Harkness?

Ron: She’s a bad guy. And she’s the best! I cannot believe how much I’m loving Agatha. Hahn was fun as Agnes in WandaVision but in this show, incredible. Agatha is mean and she isn’t afraid to lean into the meanness. The way she refuses to call Sharon by her name but the fake Mrs Hart name she got used to in Wanda’s hex. And she’s dripping with sarcasm, which I’m pretty sure is her way of hiding her vulnerability. That scene in episode two when she’s hallucinating her child’s cradle. There’s deep pain and loss and trauma in Agatha. And she’s hiding it all under layers of sarcasm and caustic wit. Just shows you how tough the witches of the MCU have to be, I guess.

Mon: I’ll start with one big criticism—what’s up with Marvel screen adaptations turning old, white-haired ladies into younger brunettes? I said this about Madame Web, and Cassandra Nova in Deadpool & Wolverine, and now I need to say it again about Agatha. Don’t get me wrong, Kathryn Hahn is amazing, but I wish Hollywood would cast older women in roles that are literally made for them. Notice how the ‘comic-accurate’ crowd never complain when a younger, hot lady is cast in the place of an old woman? Oh, but try and make comics more inclusive, and everyone loses their minds! 

Ron: Yes. That’s a good point. Agatha in the comics is much older. She’s also kinda stoic which is not like the MCU Agatha, who is hilarious. That’s what you get when you cast a seasoned comedic actor like Hahn. The expressions. The comedic timing. You get everything with Agatha. And she’s delightfully queer! Now that Marvel has cast a younger Agatha, that just means we should be getting more Agatha stories till Hahn is 90. 

Mon: I agree. We could definitely do with more of Hahn’s Agatha. I genuinely never thought I’d be saying that. She was fun on WandaVision, but Hahn gets to flex her evil side here on Agatha All Along. What I love about Agatha is that she’s good with being bad. She’s mean, and nasty. But she’s not cruel. Agatha is looking out for herself, which is what all the witches in the coven are doing. I found her compelling to watch; especially because she’s a baddie. 

Best episode

Ron: Let’s talk about favourite episodes. What’s my favourite? Can I say all of them? How can you make me choose? Oh wait, I’m the one making us choose. 

Mon: You’re so dramatic! Oddly enough, the episode that confounded me the most is also my favourite – it’s got to be Episode 7, “Death's Hand in Mine”. 

Ron: I love Lilia’s episode. I might cry. It was so beautiful.

Mon: Yes, it was the one episode that made me super emotional. The melancholia of losing oneself, of trying to find oneself. And Patti LuPone is a legend for a reason. She carries that discombobulation so well. The way the episode was edited and structured, we feel lost like Lilia, but we also feel rewarded for having gone on this journey with her. 

Ron: I mentioned this to you while watching Lilia’s episode but it made me think of the first season of Castle Rock. The seventh episode of that season gave viewers the point of view of a character with dementia. And the episode fills in all the moments that the character had been losing through the show. It was heartbreakingly beautiful. Sissy Spacek got a lot of accolades for her performance and I hope Patti Lupone gets the same. She was so stunning in Agatha but Lilia’s spotlight episode was everything.

Mon: Episode 7 there too? 

Ron: What a coincidence, right? I must check whether there’s a connection between these two shows. I learned that the reason Agatha All Along’s first episode was a parody of Mare of Easttown was because the showrunners of the two shows are good friends. And they both have an Evan Peters connection.

Mon: Interesting. I was reminded of the fifth episode of The Haunting of Bly Manor. In that episode we also follow a character losing time and place. And we experience a similar sense of melancholy and loss as we do with Lilia.

Ron: Also, I don’t know much about Tarot, but the way Lilia’s episode leaned into tarot was really interesting. I love the way the Tarot deck tied up so many plot threads from earlier episodes. What a treat. Lilia stole my heart in that episode. But who is your favourite witch?

Favourite witch

Mon: ALICE! I love her so much. I’m so predictable, eh? Give me a silent, brooding morally-ambiguous protagonist with a bleeding heart and heart-breaking backstory, and she’s my queen. I’m still angry at Agatha for killing Alice. And Ali Ahn portrays Alice with so much pathos – I couldn’t stop watching her. Plus, Alice is the only one in the coven who’s looking out for someone else. Alice is protective of Teen, but not in the usual maternal way. She’s a kind person; she’s been burned before. She’s been a cop, and she’s literally the Protection witch. Of all the coven, Alice seemed the least selfish. The friendship she and Teen formed was adorable. I could have watched more of that. New fav. Unlocked.

Ron: I really loved Jennifer Kale. Maybe I’m biased because I’ve been listening to Sasheer Zamata for a while on the Best Friends podcast she does with Nicole Byer. But I was pretty hyperfocused on Jennifer in this show. She’s sarcastic, she doesn’t take Agatha’s nonsense. She’s on this quest for herself but she takes the time to warn Teen about how dangerous Agatha can be. Zamata has such a wonderfully expressive face. I loved watching her react to Agatha and the coven’s general weirdness. So fun.

Horror

Ron: Nobody warned us this show would be scary. Like, hoo boy, jump cuts, unnaturally-moving characters, straight up demons and demonic possessions. What a ride! I love that this show had just the right level of terrifying. Enough to make you recoil in fear but not enough to keep you up at night. Though, now that I think about it, I don’t think our parents would be able to watch it? They don’t like horror and the scary moments in Agatha are pretty scary.

Mon: There are definitely a few ‘keep the lights on at night’ jump scares in this show. And it starts from the first episode. I love that. I wish we had more of it.

Queerness

Ron: I don’t know when this happened, but Aubrey Plaza is incredibly hot and queer. I used to find her too quirky but I loved her in Happiest Season. I still think Kristen Stewart’s character should have ended up with Plaza’s character in that film. 

Mon: Not gonna lie, Aubrey Plaza in Happiest Season is super hot. I still can’t get over it. And in Agatha All Along, sizzle!!!! Loved her here. Needed more of her.

Ron: In Agatha All Along, Plaza is deliciously queer and hot. It was obvious from the trailer that she would be naughty and fun, but I really loved her in this. And her chemistry with Hahn is insane. I was screaming ‘kiss already’ everytime they were in the same frame. Also, nothing like queer longing and betrayal to get one excited, eh?

Mon: The MCU began in 2008, but Agatha All Along is the first property where we have multiple out gay protagonists. It’s the first one where two women are very obviously into each other and, at least in the first seven episodes, go in for an aborted kiss. It’s only the second MCU property where we have a gay romance between two gay lads. It’s 2024, nearly two decades after the franchise started. And we’re only now catching up with the fact that gay people exist! I mean, poor Valkyrie is dying to be her bi self in the Thor movies, but Marvel didn’t let her. An absolute shame.

Mon: Now, alongside The Eternals, the Netflix Marvel shows did have gay characters, romance and kisses. But aside from Daredevil, I don’t know if those shows are part of the MCU or not. So,some of those firsts still stand.

Ron: What’s canon and what isn’t? It’s all a mystery. But here’s the thing, is Agatha All Along going to be considered pure MCU? Since it’s a TV show? Are we getting into discourse? Okay. Let’s get into discourse.

Discourse

Ron: Have you heard all the discourse online? Particularly the discourse around who Billy should have wanted to bring back?

Mon: Eh? Agatha discourse has completely passed me by, mate. Enlighten me. 

Ron: First up, I completely missed all the hate the show was getting from dudebros. They can go suck it. But there was some weird talk online about when Billy comes to life, and why was he looking for Tommy? A lot of people were wondering why Billy wouldn’t first want Wanda back. Now look, we love Wanda. I don’t think anyone who watches Marvel films dislikes her. MCU-Wanda is universally loved in a way comics-Wanda has never been allowed to. I get the disappointment of losing Wanda in Doctor Strange 2. I hate it, as well. I want Wanda back. I’ve loved her in the comics, I love her in the MCU.

Ron: Having said all that, people saying Billy should have wanted his mother back before Tommy shows a fundamental misunderstanding of these two characters and Wanda and Pietro. I haven’t read much of Billy and Tommy, but whenever I’ve encountered them, it’s obvious that they’re very close twins, like their mom and uncle. The Wanda, Pietro and Vision trifecta is basically recreated in the next generation with Billy, Tommy, and Billy’s boyfriend, Hulkling. How can anybody expect Billy to find life and not immediately go looking for his twin?

Mon: Wait a ruddy second here. You’re telling me people are confused that Billy wants Tommy back and not Wanda? Have they met any twins in their life? Do they not understand story and characterization? Billy and Tommy are two halves of the same coin. They’re inseparable whenever we’ve seen them in the MCU. Of course, Billy wants Tommy back. 

But, aside from that, from a narrative standpoint, Tommy as Speed needs to enter the MCU to kickstart the next phase of the franchise. The Young Avengers aren’t coming; they’re here. We’re waiting for them to fill in the blanks now. People have absolutely no media literacy. Thank goodness I didn’t read this silliness. 

Finale

Mon: Ok. So the two-part finale. The show takes a complete turn here. The last trial looks very different from the others. And Jenn discovers that Agatha was the one who bound her and left her powerless — though, and it’s not clear — Agatha may have done so on the behest of the patriarchy. It’s all a convenient ploy to give Jenn her power back. 

Then we move onto Billy who asks Agatha for help to find Tommy. Or rather, they need to find a newly dead boy who can become Tommy. In the end, Agatha is left to grow life in a dead space and that’s how she accomplishes the trial. 

Ron: Except, Agatha’s trial has only just begun. We learnt in the previous episode that Rio was actually Death. Agatha makes a deal to give up Billy to save herself. But Billy has to be willing to do it. Because if he dies otherwise, he can just reincarnate and the next time, Death won’t be able to find him. 

Mon: Yeah. And Agatha is clever. She almost succeeds in her plan to sacrifice Billy. But then he reminds her of her son and Agatha makes the sacrifice play instead. Sealing the deal with a pretty hot kiss with Rio. Took them long enough. 

Ron: Can’t deny that I was waiting with bated breath for the finale. But Marvel did its Marvel thing and didn’t quite stick the landing. The two part finale was a great length but way too much exposition. And I also didn’t feel the performances were as layered as previous episodes. Like the almost-kiss scene had me thinking the best of Agatha. But in this episode, things just happen and there’s no sleight of hand to keep you on your toes.

Mon: It’s really weird how the show stuck the landing throughout the first 7 episodes and then completely fell away in the two-part finale. 

Mon: Tonally the two finales were different from the rest of the show. And you could feel them changing the protagonist — from Agatha to Billy.

Ron: Technically it wasn’t Agatha all along. More like Billy all along, eh? 

Mon: You’re not wrong. I was concerned the show was just a vehicle for Billy to enter the MCU. But, the first 7 episodes kept proving me wrong. And I was like, yes, we have a show with all these awesome ladies in it. Yay. And then the finales happened, and yup, the show was indeed just a vehicle for Billy. You cottoned on pretty quick during the finale that Billy reality-warped the whole witches’ road. 

Ron: It never even occurred to me that Billy’s presence in this show would be a distraction from Agatha. And the first seven episodes, it wasn’t. I think some of my disappointment about this finale is that the show was basically an illusion. Not exactly Lost levels of “it was a dream”, but close enough. Having said that, I did like the twist that Billy created the Witches Road purely from his desire to get his brother back. It’s a great callback to Wanda creating the hex on Westview to have a family. 

Ron: I wonder now, wouldn’t it have been interesting to swap the finales? Have us see Agatha’s journey with Nicholas and then see her make the sacrifice play to save Billy. 

Mon: So, the whole Agatha and Nicholas thing — I think they went too hard on that. The overreliance on the maternal aspect of female characters in the MCU is a problem. I thought WandaVision handled it well before Multiverse of Madness made it an obsession. And we see that here in Agatha as well. She can have a dark past with a dead child without that having to be the only humanizing aspect to her. Actually, why does she need to be humanized? Let her be evil. 

Ron: Yep. I agree wholeheartedly. Do we need such a long part of the episode dedicated to a mother’s love? It would have been more interesting to see why she enjoyed killing witches despite having so much love for her son. 

Mon: Like, seriously. In the final episode, we see Agatha and Nicholas’s life together. And honestly, it’s a drag. I thought the con artist part was interesting but the mother-son connection wasn’t strong at all. She was using Nicholas. 

Ron: We should have seen the other cons Agatha made Nicholas do with her. I like the con artist-witch angle. 

Mon: And their only bond was singing iterations of what would become the Witches’ Road song. That’s not layered storytelling. 

Ron: Question: did Nicholas make up that witches road song on his own? Or was that an existing melody he co-opted? Because it starts off as wandering road and then becomes winding road, before finally landing on witches road, aka Agatha’s centuries’ long opportunity to scam and kill witches. That I liked. A lot!

Mon: See, the problem with the finales is this — everything that’s special about these ladies is the boys in this story. And the bad stuff is the ladies fighting each other. The finales totally undermine everything that was awesome about the previous episodes. 

Ron: That’s a bit harsh. 

Mon: I know. But I’m disappointed. 

Ron: I think Agatha and Rio were connected by more than just Nicolas and his death. 

Mon: Was that on screen? No. 

At the very least, I would rather have known why Agatha kills witches and steals their power. What does she get out of it?

Ron: Nicholas even asks her to stop doing it and she just brushes it off. Lean into that. Agatha being a grieving mother isn’t new or unusual. Her insistence on taking lives is!

Ron: Of course, I would have loved to see how Rio and Agatha got together. Rio is literal death and she falls so deeply in love with Agatha? Where was that story?

Mon: Totally! Where was the romance between these two?

Ron: I had really enjoyed the queer yearning, mostly from Rio in the earlier episodes. But by the finale, it was just hate from Agatha. Is Rio’s love for her purely because Agatha keeps her in business with all those witches she kills?

Mon: The layers and depth to the characters disappeared in the finales. I think that’s what I’m struggling with the most. 

Ron: Yes, and I’m feeling that lack of a 22-episode season even more. We get a short scene of Alice being taken by Death and she really doesn’t want to go. But what does it mean for her? Does she get to be with her mother? Did she really live in fear of a curse her whole life just to die for a boy and coven she met a few days ago? 

Mon: So many questions. You’re right to ask them because we’re never going to get these answers. The story has moved on from the coven. It’s on to the Young Avengers now. Agatha is a ghost with white hair and she’s a bit player again. She’s Billy’s guide. He’s running the show.  

Ron: This is such an issue with the Marvel shows. There are all these nuggets but then it’s all wrapped up with an untidy bow. We’re never going to see more of Jake Lockley from Moon Knight and now I’m not sure where Jenn Kale’s life is going to go. I’m glad she got her happy ending. Jenn going ballistic at Agatha for binding her. Agatha really is the worst. But that’s why we’ve grown to love her!

Mon: Ok, so in the end, Agatha and the coven were simply the catalyst for Billy to become a witch. Is that the takeaway from the show then?

Ron: I want to say that’s reductive. Because it wasn’t just about Billy. This show was about Jenn getting her power back from the patriarchy and an agent of that patriarchy, aka Agatha. Lilia also got a happy-ish ending. She got the answer as to why she lived her life out of order and she got to save her coven in the process. And it was about Agatha finding the kindness in her own black heart to give her life instead of taking lives. Why Sharon and Alice had to die, I can’t tell you. 

Mon: You are kinder than I am. They should have closed the loop with Alice and said she’s going to be with her mom. Missed opportunity there. And Sharon — yeah, that was bad luck, I guess. 

Mon: Overall feelings about Agatha All Along? 

Ron: I loved disappearing into this show every week. It definitely had the energy and intrigue of WandaVision and was just as unpredictable. I loved the characters. The witches were all so layered and had incredible backstories that I would have loved to explore. 

Mon: The first seven episodes were a blast and I want to rewatch them. Even when some of the moments slowed, I was invested in this group of complicated and flamboyant witches. I loved a lot of the production design and the character dynamics. More than anything, I’m so glad we finally have more out and proud queer characters in the MCU. 

Ron: As much as I don’t like that this show ended up being a tool to introduce Billy to the MCU, he’s also a fascinating character that I’m feeling quite invested in. I want to see where he goes and I desperately want him to find Tommy. 

Mon: Agreed. At least Joe Locke is compelling to watch and Billy is already a conflicted character. That’s something to look forward to with the Young Avengers. 

Ron: Onwards to the Young Avengers indeed. But until then, we’re going to be singing the Witches Road song so much.

[billykcplan]

okay because i'm feeling bold. thoughts on agatha finale below.

first and foremost, let me be dramatic: enough of the fuck billy bullshit. if you don't like the twist with the road, can we direct that energy at the writers please. you never have this energy for other characters and it speaks volumes.

being on the billy defense squad for 13 years now, i'm not letting y'all clown him for anything.

if you dick ride for agatha killing coven after coven after coven for no real reason or wanda mind controlling a town or killing a bunch of people in multiverse of madness, you realllllly don't have a leg to stand on and you just sound like you hate gay men. go ahead, keep calling him a twink when we all know what you really want to say. it's exhausting.

i am still processing the twist. parts of the groundwork were laid, but it wasn't what i expected at all. the show took a pretty big tonal shift after episodes 6-7 seemed to set up more of a somber tone which was lessened i'd say in episodes 8-9.

let's start off what i didn't love but am still processing:

billy manifesting the road twist was theorized but i kind of tossed it aside and thought the bedroom would be more of the easter egg stuff and less meaningful. or that the road was just adapting to billy who may have been like the key traveler. evidently not. but spontaneous creation? reality manipulation? demiurge???? like it's in his wheelhouse and it's not that surprising. i think i'm moreso frustrated by the other witches not knowing what was happening and by agatha's confusing actions if the road wasn't real. like why did she tell lilia the secret about blasting her? why'd she recruit a bound witch? if that was the goal for her? those are some tricky plotholes. but i still think jac schaeffer is a phenomenal showrunner.

i thought we would see agathario from the start - not just after nicky was born. they needed more context to their relationship because without it, they are solely reliant on kathryn and aubrey (who do a phenoemenal job!) but they need story to back them up. i'd love to know how they met, how they got together. if they broke up pre-nicky and why. and why did agatha get the darkhold? i thought it'd have been interesting if agatha was using nicky to drain covens to extend his life or if she had gotten the darkhold to try to resurrect nicky and that was why rio and agatha's relationship had gotten so toxic because agatha was messing with the balance. but again, this is coming from my expectations.

was really hoping that we would get some resolution to the "am i william or am i billy?" question. truly thought agatha would help restore his memories of william and billy or merge their souls or something. and that he'd leave the road going by "billy kaplan" just like the comics in recognition of both identities. that's not really what happened clearly, but i also think this is still something that could happen later on. the moment is not gone.

if the road was popping them out when they got what they were missing, i'm confused as to why alice wasn't popped out after lifting her curse. or lilia after closing the loop on her memories, though she does make this conscious choice to fight the salem seven and in some ways, this seems to be a pre-determined future for herself.

agatha dying in the end was an interesting choice. clearly she will continue on in ghost form. but it done so campy that it takes so tonal adjustment to get me there.

onto what i loved or at least liked:

billy as fucking wiccan. that's my baby and that suit looks so fucking good. and that crown looks amazing. i am so fucking excited for his future. wiccan, young avengers, children's crusade, scarlet witch. i just need to see him again. and i am so desperate for him to go on this journey and meet teddy along the way. for him to find tommy.

billy's guilt - straight from the comics as well. they make it all morally gray, just like they do with wanda. but billy is desperately upset about potentially leading these witches to their death. it's a really complex situation, but that's what makes the maximoff's so interesting. they're not all good or all bad. and that's very true in the witch corner. billy going on a hero's journey attempting to atone for mistakes he believes he has made (and has in some cases). it's difficult to say anything but the road killed sharon. and it's difficult to say that lilia and alice would have ever died if they weren't put on the road. but it was all unconscious and there are other things at play here. it makes it all so fucking interesting narratively.

tommy!!!! i'm so excited to see tommy wherever he ends up showing up. super interesting more question posed again - "am i killing this boy so my brother can live?" because billy isn't afraid to ask the question.

billy and agatha's relationship. they are such complex interesting characters and have had some an amazing dynamic throughout the show. and i'm so excited to see that dynamic continue in the future.

i'm hopeful death will cotninue to play a role going forward and who's to say we're done with agathario. who's to say agatha has to stay a ghost. the future is bright.

overall this show is still peak to me and i think i just need to keep processing everything and my subverted expectations.

[guardednight]

okay because i'm feeling bold. thoughts on agatha finale below.

first and foremost, let me be dramatic: enough of the fuck billy bullshit. if you don't like the twist with the road, can we direct that energy at the writers please. you never have this energy for other characters and it speaks volumes.

being on the billy defense squad for 13 years now, i'm not letting y'all clown him for anything.

if you dick ride for agatha killing coven after coven after coven for no real reason or wanda mind controlling a town or killing a bunch of people in multiverse of madness, you realllllly don't have a leg to stand on and you just sound like you hate gay men. go ahead, keep calling him a twink when we all know what you really want to say. it's exhausting.

i am still processing the twist. parts of the groundwork were laid, but it wasn't what i expected at all. the show took a pretty big tonal shift after episodes 6-7 seemed to set up more of a somber tone which was lessened i'd say in episodes 8-9.

let's start off what i didn't love but am still processing:

billy manifesting the road twist was theorized but i kind of tossed it aside and thought the bedroom would be more of the easter egg stuff and less meaningful. or that the road was just adapting to billy who may have been like the key traveler. evidently not. but spontaneous creation? reality manipulation? demiurge???? like it's in his wheelhouse and it's not that surprising. i think i'm moreso frustrated by the other witches not knowing what was happening and by agatha's confusing actions if the road wasn't real. like why did she tell lilia the secret about blasting her? why'd she recruit a bound witch? if that was the goal for her? those are some tricky plotholes. but i still think jac schaeffer is a phenomenal showrunner.

i thought we would see agathario from the start - not just after nicky was born. they needed more context to their relationship because without it, they are solely reliant on kathryn and aubrey (who do a phenoemenal job!) but they need story to back them up. i'd love to know how they met, how they got together. if they broke up pre-nicky and why. and why did agatha get the darkhold? i thought it'd have been interesting if agatha was using nicky to drain covens to extend his life or if she had gotten the darkhold to try to resurrect nicky and that was why rio and agatha's relationship had gotten so toxic because agatha was messing with the balance. but again, this is coming from my expectations.

was really hoping that we would get some resolution to the "am i william or am i billy?" question. truly thought agatha would help restore his memories of william and billy or merge their souls or something. and that he'd leave the road going by "billy kaplan" just like the comics in recognition of both identities. that's not really what happened clearly, but i also think this is still something that could happen later on. the moment is not gone.

if the road was popping them out when they got what they were missing, i'm confused as to why alice wasn't popped out after lifting her curse. or lilia after closing the loop on her memories, though she does make this conscious choice to fight the salem seven and in some ways, this seems to be a pre-determined future for herself.

agatha dying in the end was an interesting choice. clearly she will continue on in ghost form. but it done so campy that it takes so tonal adjustment to get me there.

onto what i loved or at least liked:

billy as fucking wiccan. that's my baby and that suit looks so fucking good. and that crown looks amazing. i am so fucking excited for his future. wiccan, young avengers, children's crusade, scarlet witch. i just need to see him again. and i am so desperate for him to go on this journey and meet teddy along the way. for him to find tommy.

billy's guilt - straight from the comics as well. they make it all morally gray, just like they do with wanda. but billy is desperately upset about potentially leading these witches to their death. it's a really complex situation, but that's what makes the maximoff's so interesting. they're not all good or all bad. and that's very true in the witch corner. billy going on a hero's journey attempting to atone for mistakes he believes he has made (and has in some cases). it's difficult to say anything but the road killed sharon. and it's difficult to say that lilia and alice would have ever died if they weren't put on the road. but it was all unconscious and there are other things at play here. it makes it all so fucking interesting narratively.

tommy!!!! i'm so excited to see tommy wherever he ends up showing up. super interesting more question posed again - "am i killing this boy so my brother can live?" because billy isn't afraid to ask the question.

billy and agatha's relationship. they are such complex interesting characters and have had some an amazing dynamic throughout the show. and i'm so excited to see that dynamic continue in the future.

i'm hopeful death will cotninue to play a role going forward and who's to say we're done with agathario. who's to say agatha has to stay a ghost. the future is bright.

overall this show is still peak to me and i think i just need to keep processing everything and my subverted expectations.

[warningsine]

Do you really think Aubrey/Rio won't be back for season 2?

Well, I'd love to be proven wrong and eat my words, anon, but this is Marvel so I'm not holding my breath.

For all of their talk about this being the "gayest Marvel production" (it was a milestone for the MCU, I'm not going to deny this), they were too cowardly to really commit.

They didn't dare

show any meaningful past Agatha/Rio interactions. The only one they chose to include was the moment Rio came to take the stillborn and then fuck off for 6 years like a deadbeat daddy.

explicitly establish that Rio was the daddy/other parent in the first place. "Open to interpretation."

give us a kiss (in the past) prior to the kiss of death, since the latter can be interpreted as a means to an end. "I don't think this is their first kiss." What did she mean by this? She literally said they were exes. I would have been way stricter about this had they not included Billy and Teddy's kiss in episode 6 by the way.

I don't even blame Jac for this, but rather the Marvel/Disney execs who no doubt wanted to keep the story as palatable to het/general audiences as possible. Now many of them can easily dismiss the relationship altogether.

And I found "I hadn't expected people to like Rio and Agatha so much" a rather disingenuous statement given that in episode 1, they chose to straight up copy a "Killing Eve" scene.

Had they not been aware that KE had a huge queer fanbase? Had they not been aware that its ending and post finale interviews caused an equally huge shitstorm/backlash?

[lucianalight]

I think the key here is that Agatha survived (as she was supposed to) and Billy actually died. Thus Billy was meant to go with Rio while Agatha was not. Since Billy jumped into another body instead of going to the afterlife, he essentially broke the cycle of life and dead. That's what Rio is angry about, not the act of surviving. I do think that line could have been written better (and yes, please stop using that word mcu), but I don't think it's entirely ooc for Rio to pursue Billy for this. For the same reason, she doesn't want him to bring back Tommy. If Billy and Tommy just start jumping into another body every time they die, they would essentially live forever, which they're not supposed to. Also, I think Rio should've been equally pissed about Thanos just snapping half of everyone and everything away, which broke the same rule.

@catlady48 I waited to read this interview with Jac to answer your comments.

She specifically says they developed Rio as neutral the way nature is. And that Rio has no real control over circumstances of somebody's demise. We also know she can't kill people and that she needs for Billy to turn himself in. She can't take Tommy as well. Because technically neither Billy nor Tommy are dead. Otherwise there wouldn't be an issue for Rio to take them. They just don't have bodies because their physical bodies depended on the existence of the Hex. The Hex is gone and Billy can jump into the closest dead body because of his magical abilities. Tommy can't and needs his help. So they survive. If Rio is like nature why would she care that they found a way to keep living? Many other creatures find ways to survive in weird and more terrifying ways. It's how nature is.

Jac says she did research theories about time for ep 7. Which I think it's one of the reasons that makes ep 7 fantastic. Because it not only matches the mcu world building about the workings of time and free will from Loki series, but also it's close to actual scientific theories. According to this world building in mcu free will exists, nothing is set to stone and people keep making new branches of time aka universes by their different decisions. Therefore "this person is supposed to die at this time" doesn't match the world building. In Nicky's case Rio can offer time because Nicky was ill. Some fatal illnesses can be delayed but can't be healed so it makes sense with the world building.

Moreover taking Agatha instead of Billy doesn't really fix the Billy-can-reincarnate-if-he-is-killed problem. So if Billy should have died why take someone else? This is a plothole that bothers me.

I agree about her being angry with what Thanos did. Because the dusted people didn't die, they ceased to exist. Since no one actually came back from afterlife. But erasing Death from that plotline is Russo's fault.

There were issues with these last episodes. Billy was a bit inconsistent with his characterisation in episode 5/6 and I thought the way they wrote out Jen was really messy. And the way they wrapped it up was also questionable. Also, the Agatha and Rio dynamic seems to be inconsistent as well and that actually bugged me more about Rio's characterisation than the balance thing. No idea what happened with these episodes, but it is a drop in quality in my opinion. Then again, this is the mcu, expectations are low.

I didn't find issues with these but I agree that there was a drop in quality. And I think it's mainly because they didn't take time to show us more of Agatha's background and her relationship with Rio. We should have seen more of her backstory before and after Rio. We should have seen why she thought her only way to survive was killing witches. We should have seen what her love and life was like with Rio and before Nicky. That way their final fight would have been more emotionally charged rather than feeling anticlimactic. Because we would have known the depth of their hurt and pain and what they have lost. And the pov change from Agatha to Billy happened too soon. We should have seen that fight.

Imo Agatha, as the protagonist, has the messiest most unsatisfying arc and there are still so many questions about her went unanswered that should have been explored in a series focusing on her. I wish they'd spent more time on her and showed us what they had talked about for writing her story, instead of keep telling us those details in interviews like how Rio and Agatha have so much history. Show, don't tell rule etc.

"He is an abomination. He is disrupting the sAcRAd balance."

This is the line I have a lot of issues with in regard to the portrayal of Rio. Rio is the original green witch, which makes her also Death. She was meant to symbolize the duality of life and death and their inseparable connection. The constant cycle of birth, growth, death in nature. Maiden, mother, crone. The mother nature.

And nature, has no balance. Let alone a "sacred" one(honestly if I hear the word one more time in mcu I'm gonna scream). In fact chaos is the most natural state of nature and evolution, and the flow of life, is about nothing but survival.

Now the story of course can make up its own rules and world building. It doesn't have to be factually correct. But they developed Rio as a force of nature. Not evil, not kind and motherly. A reality that exists and can be both and neither.

As a character she understands that Agatha's coven and her mother considering her evil and a monster of nature is wrong. If only they teached her instead of shunning her things would turn out differently. She understands that Agatha trying to survive her execution is not evil, it's just her trying to survive.

She fell in love with a survivor. Why she's calling Billy an abomination for the same thing? And Billy hasn't kill anyone to survive. He just jumped in an already dead body.

So this line is directly in contrast with her characterization. I understand that they wanted to up the stakes for Billy to get Agatha sacrificing herself for him. But I don't like the way they went about it because it's inconsistent with what they established from the start.

[toshladuk]

Wandavision

...or is it WandaVision?!

I like the most of the world it seems loooove this show! As I write this there’s still just under 12hrs before the series finale is released which is 8am where I am. Annoyingly due to work I’m gonna have to wait to see it and as the internet is “the internet” I’m going to have to completely avoid any and all forms of social media if nothing else because someone somewhere will post about it and algorithms dictate that content will turn up on one of my feeds somewhere.

As for the show itself I could not have been more blindsided by how fantastic this series is. Of the 4 Disney+ Marvel shows we already have trailers for this was the one I was least excited by. I now find that bizarre because it was when the MCU decided to get more fantastical with its storytelling that’s what drew me in, using directors like Taika Waititi, James Gunn and Edgar Wright (even though he departed Ant-Man and you can still see his fingerprints all over that movie). I feel confident even though the tale is not quite finished that this will be my favourite MCU property going forward.

Just the care and the craft of taking these old American sitcom tropes and using them to pay homage without resorting to cheap parody. Weaving a genuinely moving story about Wanda Maximoff’s grief and what her character has had to endure while still producing some genuinely very funny sitcom moments. Also lets not forget they’ve been able to introduce at least 2 new major characters for the MCU going forward in the newly superpowered Monica Rambeau aka Photon or Spectrum and the deliciously naughty Agatha Harkness. They also managed to breathe new life into a couple of side characters with the now Dr Darcy Lewis and Agent Jimmy Woo. That’s a lot of heavy lifting for the show to do in such a short amount of time and it’s a testament to the writing that it has all seemed seamless. For the record I am well and truly aboard the Darcy Lewis & Jimmy Woo X-Files style show train!!!

What has really made the show so memorable though is the amazing central performances of Elizabeth Olsen, Paul Bettany and Katherine Hahn. In a show with such a unique concept, so silly sounding from the outside for the actors to keep the material grounded and truthful, even if they are a cosmic witch and a synthezoid, just goes to show what talent is on display here. I loved finding out that as well as being a brilliant “serious” actor Paul Bettany is also a gifted physical comedian and that Katherine Hahn has far more range and subtlety than many give her credit for. The MVP though is Elizabeth Olsen, great comedic acting in the sitcom chapters of the show especially in the nuances of portraying the different eras as well as showing us some gut wrenching emotion as her ideal world starts to crumble around her. Every time I see her face crack or that bottom lip start to quiver I’m welling up.

The one thing I am wary of though is the possible backlash, because even though it’s been fun joining in all the theorising online some people seem to get so enamoured with their predictions that inevitably when the showrunners go in a different direction they get butthurt and start dropping crappy videos all over the internet about how the show was riddled with bad writing and plotholes etc etc. You know the type I mean, the bespectacled bearded men of YouTube who appoint themselves as gatekeepers for whatever fandom they believe themselves to be the king of! I call it Last Jedi-itus!

Despite the last paragraph I may as well throw a couple of my theories and wishes for how the show will end, but if all or none come to fruition I was glad I was along for the ride

- Wanda is NOT set up to be the antagonist of Dr Strange 2 because I think the MCU is becoming far more nuanced and subtle in it’s storytelling and I doubt Marvel and the shows writers want to fall into “emotional woman becomes baddie” trope.

- Hayward, though a dick, turns out not to be simply a baddie but someone acting out of fear and mistrust of superheroes due to the blip. Possibly a continuation of the anti-superpowered story arc started in Civil War?

- Tommy and Billy are real because even though conceived in the Hex through chaos magic Wanda still physically gave birth to them. 

- Agatha Harkness will remain a bad guy for the time being (she did kill Sparky after all!), I think she’ll kidnap and escape with the twins at the end, but I can see her long term MCU future becoming more Loki-like, sometimes mischievous, sometimes malevolent but always selfishly motivated.

- Vision will (hopefully) live on using White Vision’s body but I think this happens in another MCU project down the line. This is because I think Wanda is left all but broken by the end of the show.

- Monica will kick ass in the final battle but they are saving her spectacular stuff and full power set reveal for Captain Marvel 2

- The cameo is.... I have no feckin idea! I used to think it was Ian McKellen but I’m not sure now. 

- This is a one and done show, there’s no second season of Wandavision per-see though there may be spin offs. I hope thats how they do it anyway.

Anyway that’s my two cents worth. Whatever happens I’ve really enjoyed the ride and even if the ending is not what I expect or even want I have absolute trust in Kevin Feige, Jac Schaeffer and Matt Shakman and besides this is only the beginning of the so called Multiverse Saga, so I’m not expecting a neat ending with all loose ends tied up. There’s plenty of story left to tell.

[warningsine]

Wow I’m at awe at how shitty those wiki entries about AAA are like what the fuck were they watching. Rio’s hobby was to manipulate Agatha? Agatha?!? Rio was pleased that Agatha died? The hair? lol

“It could be considered another manipulation, because she wants to keep her son. We don't have enough flashbacks of their epic love to prove otherwise”

I’m not even sure if that reading is in particularly bad faith. It’s all open to interpretation 🙄 they made a choice not show anything about their past relationship and then Jac gave a bunch of interviews that said they were partners and lovers once and I think Kathryn said a couple of times that Agatha loved her but on screen, it was mostly microexpressions and the fact that Agatha lies and manipulates as she breathes.

“Now many of them can easily dismiss the relationship altogether.”

This. The show went out of the way to not make it anything close to overt to a casual viewer. The casual viewer doesn’t rewatch every scene looking for details like that second when Agatha was hurt that Rio agreed not to see her ever again, even that deleted line about “the face she feel in love with” would be something about how they were once in love, even the kiss, for many Rio was a crazy stalker and that was a kiss of death, maybe their first and it was never a true loving relationship. Is it simply bad media literacy or just that the show didn’t really want to commit to their relationship. Maybe both.

“I hadn't expected people to like Rio and Agatha so much" a rather disingenuous statement”

That drives me insane. I admire Jac, she has a great relationship with Marvel and knows how to play the game and how far she can push so she can give us a show like AAA. It can’t be easy to work with that kind of oversight from Marvel/Disney but come on, she knew what she had with those actors and their chemistry. She said herself when she was directing them in the first episode. It was funny that after the finale every mainstream media asked about those two, tvline just had “the licking the palm” scene as one of the hottest scene of 2024, it wasn’t even just the queer fanbase that wanted more lol

"Rio’s hobby was to manipulate Agatha?"

Rio's hobby was to fold like a chair whenever Agatha manipulated her. Not only did she find it hot, but also amusing (episode 4).

Rio is so pathetic for her, I don't know how people could possibly miss that.

"It’s all open to interpretation 🙄"

We need to turn this phrase into a meme.

"on screen, it was mostly microexpressions and the fact that Agatha lies and manipulates as she breathes."

To be fair, there are moments (e4, e5, e8 if you squint) where you can see Agatha struggling with her feelings for Rio (old love vs. hatred), but yeah.

They could have slightly redeemed themselves by adding a very short e9 scene that would show them sharing a kiss before Agatha had Nicky. Perhaps after Agatha murdered some witches. Nothing passionate; just some mild flirting and a chaste peck.

It would have made a lot of difference.

"Is it simply bad media literacy or just that the show didn’t really want to commit to their relationship. Maybe both."

Maybe both indeed.

Casual viewers don't bother with interviews and fandom. In fact, a lot of them don't have the attention spans to watch a 30 min episode without checking their phones or getting otherwise distracted.

So it's easy to miss the details. Especially when the show is so dark you can barely see the actors.

"tvline just had “the licking the palm” scene as one of the hottest scene of 2024"

Oh, worm?

Well, were they wrong?

I know everyone in the fandom obsesses over the kiss (fair!), but that intense eye contact during that e1 moment and the fact that you could briefly see Agatha's "blood" on Rio's tongue haven't left my mind since.