#its in the ec! the one where they talk about kevin and thea- its mentioned that thea wasn't rikos type. examining that a redhead

[no-i-dont-exist-keep-talking]

Your reminder that Neil is canonically Riko's type.

[i-did]

Do you have any thoughts on the way “fuck you Nora” impacts things like ships, in particular the recent sentiment that andreil is toxic and other fanon ships are objectively better and healthier that’s in pockets of the fandom. Like I’ve definitely seen it in the Kevin-centric niche the most but even outside of that there’s this belief that things like jerejean and renison would be very soft and healthy when there’s no proof of that. It’s almost like plausible deniability because (1/2)

andreil has canon strengths and flaws that are irrefutable, so when they ship things like Jerejean kevjean that don’t interact they feel a license to make it “better” because they know better than Nora if that makes sense. And Kandrew and kevineil are pitched as being healthier than andreil, among fans who say they wish the kandreil draft was canon where Nora has said multiple times, even when she talks about how fun they were to write that k/a were “obsessive” (2/2)

Yeah I definitely think “fuck you Nora” can play into it, sort of like how for a while most marriage or “I love you” HC posts started or ended with “fuck you Nora”. 

I think andreil are such a unique relationship dynamic of two very “difficult and violent” people ending up together, so I understand why they also get called toxic and flawed a lot. Tbh I can’t really see Andrew or Neil with anyone else, I think they fit together well and what works and is healthy for them just won't work or be healthy for everyone else. 

I also agree in the plausible deniability aspect, sometimes I think these fans take these characters and names and general situations, and make them into OC’s and/or props to fulfill troupes. The nature of fan creation is to play around with canon.

I personally don’t think the average college boy would be emotionally prepared or equipped enough to be a healthy pairing for a recently escaped lifelong human trafficking and cult survivor who just narrowly survived. And I don’t think Kevin who held power over Jean in the nest at number 2 instead of 3 as well as Riko’s partner, would be healthy either. Kevin himself talks about how it was different for him than for Jean, it was worse for Jean since he was a “lower rank.” I think the idea Kevjean is better than Kevin and Thea comes partially from the belief that gay=better in fandom, and the ‘pair the spare’ mentality. 

I also personally think that both Kandrew and Daysten/Kevineil are not good fits either. I’ve talked about it before and explained why I think Kandrew is unhealthy and am not really interested in exploring it, but for Kevineil I personally think they… fight too much I guess. You get in arguments with your friends as well as partners, but the way they affect you and power works can be very different, and the type of arguments are also typically different. I think they're fine as friends, but I think they would need a lot more outside of canon growth and development to be a fit romantically. I don’t care what others want to ship or explore, I just personally don’t see much appeal with either dynamic. 

I think people who say “this would be healthier” are usually imagining their ideas and HC’s and version of the character rather than the canon one, as well as just… their personal idea of what is “healthier” and what a good relationship “looks like”.

Also you briefly mention Renesion as being depicted/perceived as “softer and healthier” too. From what I see of Renesion its very… just kinda there. Usually there isn't a lot of development or they're just sort of in the background of another fic. The Renee and Allison in canon would not pair well together imo either, I also mention this somewhere in an earlier ask as well. I'm all for wlw pairs and ships, and I've read like a decently long Renesion fic my friend @wishbonetea wrote called “The Gracekeepers” where they do actually have chemistry, but are growing differently than they do in canon. In canon Renee is a “bad person trying very hard to be a good person.” she’s anti-negative talk and avoids speaking ill of others or expressing negative or harsh opinions. Allison has recently escaped a stuffy rich people environment where all their words are cloaked and all compliments are backhanded and no one really says what they’re thinking, Allison’s personal growth from this is to let it out and say what she really thinks, who give a fuck if they think she's rude or unladylike, it's her feelings. Also Renee’s past is often just depicted as this cool thing rather than something very truamatizing that she struggles with, makes it hard for her to genuinely connect with others and be her ‘real self’, and Allison's on-again off-again boyfriend just died, and she was there the night it happened. I haven't seen any fics actually explore these topics, just kinda ship them since “pair the spare.” (if any of you know any fics that address this or focus on it lmk)

I'm not going to hold their chemistry to a higher standard than mlm ships tho, I've seen people ship almost all the male characters together in the tags but obviously don’t do as much content for the women, which is a shame because some of the fox ladies have interesting potential chemistry. Dan and Renee have a very interesting dynamic in the EC and Nora herself said if she were to ship the fox ladies it would be Dan with Renee. I personally have high standards for ‘shipping’ I guess, sometimes I vaguely think “oh this could be interesting” but rarely do I actively explore it. I'm a pretty canon focused consumer, I never watched supernatural thinking ‘dustiel’ or even picked up on the queer-baiting until much later. I don't care about shipping the way most fans seem to. I like to imagine Andrew and Neil meeting in their late 60’s or so, or even not meeting the other and being single and having fulfilling lives that way too, which is not a common way to ‘show affection’ to characters. 

I agree with you and think it comes down to plausible deniability and this urge to ‘defy Nora’–be all edgy to an author who stopped listening–as well as pair the spare and fandom culture of shipping at its core. Shipping is seen as a good/better treatment of the characters and “what they deserve” a lot.

[i-did]

I love your hc about kevin being bisexual aromantic and the part about his relationship with thea! I like hows it not just a "they lived happily ever after" situation, it feels more realistic. You also mentioned how you have some ideas for seth? I'd love to hear them!

Yeah! I'm not super into happily ever afters, I men to an extent sure, but for me they're so unrealistic that it pulls me out. I like how in aftg the happily ever after is that neil gets to live and hes with andrew and just has to pay a shit ton of money but we know that doesnt matter to him. Outside of context that doesn't seem very happily ever after, and I like it. It seems achievable and realistic while still romantic.

I think Kevin loves thea and thea loves Kevin, but out of habit and as partners with shared truama more than anything to do with the person themselves. Thea might not even love kevin romantically and he doesn't love her romantically but they don't really know that. And you don't need to know that because you don't need it. They fight and everything and have struggles but don't ever split up imo.

Okay seth ideas:

I have a lot of ideas for seth, I headcanon his mom was Vietnamese and his dad was white. He grew up with a racist dad who instilled toxic masculinity into him especially as an Asian man and then his dad dipped leaving him with insecurity of not being manly enough as well as abandonment issues. His mom worked a lot a lot a lot a lot to keep them afloat, he had a lot of brothers and the hierarchy was enforced with rough housing, the 2 oldest brothers suddenly parents. None of the kids ever got Vietnamese names legally because the dad wouldn't want them to have "funny sounding names" but the mom occasionally called them pet names, seth was hoping after the dad dipped at least their mom would finally be able to teach them more Vietnamese to close the barrier between them, her finally being able to speak in the language she was most comfortable in, but she was too busy and communication was always simple and shallow.

The whole EC deal with seth, the same family who left him giving him bigger abandonment issues etc etc

What seth looks like in my mind:

Obviosly he looks half Vietnamese half white, but he's a skinny lanky guy with a tooth gap he used to stick dumdum lolipop stick in between when he was little, he's got ashy medium brown hair, its dark when grown out but lightens a bit in the sun, he is one of those people with a lot of moles and freckles he got from his father. He used to be the guy who wore fake tapers and skate shoes, basket ball shorts, and a monster energy drink snap back. He starts to just wear tee shirts and jeans and takes out the fake tapers. He's got nobby knees and elbows he bangs on things and he swears everytime.

If Seth Lived:

Him and allison would have broken up a few more times until one really explosive fight and she says "I can't do this anymore" and he says "I know" and she says "I'm not going to leave you" and he says nothing.

She realizes staying friends with your ex was a promise she couldn't quite keep as much as she wanted to. They drift apart. He relapses but this time Kevin finds him. He's out the rest of the season for rehab, getting his degree online and Wymack pleads with them to let him keep scholarship. They cut him off. Wymack pays for what he can before seth can say no, and just drops off a bunch of applications for scholarships and says "I'm not letting you quit." And someone doesn't leave him.

He becomes a social worker. He actually really loves it. He reconnects with 2 out of his ~7 brothers. One of them died and he didn't even know, and he wishes for a second it was him instead, before remembering that they haven't talked in at least 10 years.

He becomes less homophobic but will still say anything to make someone hurt if he hates them, but he becomes less explosive and more worn out. The second hand trauma from being a social worker weighs on him and kne of his coworkers opens up about talking to someone. Their job doesn't cover therapy. He goes to AA and NA meetings. He's not relapsing, but its free therapy and he knows if he feels tempted he could get a sponsor.

He beats the shit out of someone outside one of the meetings who was trying to sell to the people coming out (he runs away and doesn't get caught,)

He goes on a dating website half assed at around 40 years old.

He meets a woman who is also on there half assed. She's very blunt and it reminds him of allison, but she's no frills and they come from the same type of world. He can relate to her and they don't have screaming matches that start with him refusing to take a gift of a 1200 dollar dress shirt when his from Ross is just fine.

5th date in he tells her he's sober and she says "why don't you think we've never gone to a bar?" And he realizes she's sober too.

10th date she says "i know this was fun, but I have a son and I can't be casual anymore. You have to be in or out."

And he thinks about it. And they talk about it. And he says he's in.

Its years of dating until the mom decides its steady enough to meet the son. He's 12 and says "you're not my new dad" and seth laughs, and the kid is confused, because he was trying to say something that would hurt.

His girlfriend becomes his fiance after she gets pregnant, not just because of the baby but because they've been dating for 6 years now and its been serious. Its a miscarriage and its hard, but they get though it.

Seth gets really close with the son even if he came in later into his life, he recognizes a lot of himself in the kid. He's never like a father to the kid, and seth isn't sure he knows what it means to love someone like a son, but he knows its pretty close and he tries to be the opposite of his dad.

They stay lower middle class their whole lives, her working her way up from grocery self stocker job she had at 16 to store manager just over time, him a social worker, in a cheaper town with not a lot to do, but they have a book shelf were they watch movies.

He turns on a game sometimes and quietly thinks to himself "what the fuck" about the one year of college exy he was benched the most possible drama happens. He'll say "I went to college with that kid" and she'll say "who? Scar face? Isn't he like famous or something?" And he'll say "yeah. He is"

She doesn't tell him he has to do anything he doesnt want to do, but she finds out he's been invited to multiple fox reunions where some of the attendees are rich as fuck athletes and says "i want them to pay for my meal" and so they go. They go in their Walmart dress clothes and they don't feel bad, they think rich people are stupid to spend so much when 20$ is enough for a shirt. Their son is in high school and can watch the house by himself.

Seth sticks to Matt, and then remembers that Dan was always more down to earth and his wife loves dan. Doesn't like the others so much besides Wymack and Matt a bit.

Its the only one they go to, but it reminds him to keep up with the man who had helped him out so much and he stays in contact with Wymack. He feels bad for drifting off but they talk. About once every few months, but its more than before.

Okay I'm ending it about here lol