#it's very much not my fav Buffyverse ship but. it is a buffyverse ship. so.

[spangelmybeloved]

Tara/Willow!

Top Femslash Ships Bracket - Round 3

This poll is a celebration of fandom and fandom history; we're aware that there are certain issues with some of the listed pairings and sources, but they are a part of that history. Please do not take this as an endorsement of anything included in the bracket, and refrain from harassment.

[moistvonlipwig]

top 5 fav buffyverse characters and top 5 fav buffyverse ships!

ok this one's easy i am nothing if not practiced at yapping about the buffyverse!!

CHARACTERS:

Cordelia Chase my queen my cheerleader princess warrior my everything......truly one of my favorite characters of all time. I love her so much. And honestly, I wouldn't actually change much about her arc! I think the fact that she was denied a voice in S4 is criminal, but I like the idea of the possession storyline, and I truly love her ending and find it beautiful.

ANGEL I have no idea how you got here king I cannot imagine telling myself while I was watching BtVS for the first time that he would be my second favorite Buffyverse character but he is!!!!! He's such an interesting and layered and fun character and I think his arc is actually really good and underrated.

Spoike my horrible little guy <333 king of faking his accent and being committed to the bit!!! I don't think his arc is quite as good as Cordy's or Angel's -- I think "Seeing Red," while perfectly in-character, basically derailed both his and Buffy's arcs, and he REALLY needed to have more of a reckoning with Robin Wood and stop wearing Nikki's fucking coat -- but I think "Damage" does a pretty good job interrogating and problematizing his S7 arc and leaves him in a really good place character-wise. Overall, while I have criticisms of how his character was handled, I still generally like his story and I think he's one of the most purely entertaining characters in either show.

Charles Gunn you deserved SO much better ;_; can we get this guy an arc please!!! I love hearing J. August Richards talk about playing Gunn because there was clearly so much thought and care going into his performance and it's frustrating that after S2 it felt like the writers didn't know what to do with him. I personally think keeping vampire!Alonna around would've done wonders for his arc, but there's other directions they could've taken him as well, and unfortunately they just kind of pushed him to the background instead for a lot of S3 and even more in S4. Then in S5 you have this AMAZING setup where Gunn is now working at what he once called a "Mecca" for "evil white folks," he's now complicit in the system he once fought so hard against, and it could've been an utterly brilliant arc for him, and then instead. We get 5 separate episodes devoted to Angel & Spike having a pissing contest and then Gunn's realization of W&H being bad is spurred on NOT by anything having to do with his arc or history but because he signed a piece of paper that fridged Fred and he and all the other men were sad about it and Wesley fucking stabs him over it. NO THANKS. He still gets an incredible final episode despite all that, though, and I love that he's the only human left alive in the end (even if he might not have that long left once the credits roll).

Lilah Morgan. Does any more need to be said? She is iconic, she is a queen, she is the moment, and she will bury you alive next to her house so she can hear you screaming.

and SHIPS:

I mean, Cordelia said it best: there are no people like Angel and Cordelia!!!!! They are BUDDIES and they are so FUNNY together and fun to watch but also their relationship forms the narrative backbone and thematic core of Angel and they are bound together by the joint mission they chose which is also the very mission that ends up keeping them from ever actually getting together romantically and they make each other better and inspire each other and call each other out on their worst impulses and they both love Connor so so much and are the only people who remember him and would choose him over each other every time just as all parents should and in the end she puts him on the path to stand up to Wolfram & Hart in his very final act in the show. Also they both love cars and fancy clothes and money and judging people and neither of them can sing. I love them your honor. <333

Wesley/Lilah is sooo good. One of the few enemies-to-lovers m/f ships I've seen in fiction where the woman is the evil one, which makes it infinitely more interesting to me than your standard cookie-cutter m/f evil-guy-and-heroic-girl ship. The fact that despite Lilah being pretty much just evil and Wesley being so emotionally calcified they still loved each other is just. Gahh!!! He used his one chance to sneak into W&H's files to free her from her contract!!! And he failed!!! Because flames wouldn't be eternal if they actually consumed anything!!! Lilah should've been in S5 and I will never be over it I will be mad about it forever. At least I can take heart in the fact that Wesley's contract with W&H likely had a perpetuity clause as well so he is down there right now in hell with Lilah doing evil lawyer things forever 😌

I like Angel's relationship with Darla a lot, and it retroactively makes his relationship with Buffy much more interesting to me. As much as they claimed otherwise, they clearly did hold a lot of love for one another, and were hugely formative to each other's lives. It's rather remarkable to me that a character who barely appeared in Buffy and whose status as Angel's sire seemed unimportant in that show came back in Angel and was fleshed out to such a great extent that it really colors how I view Angel's entire character on both shows. Bringing Darla back was one of the smartest things Angel ever did, and their relationship deserves more love from fandom.

Oh, the epic highs and lows of Buffy/Spike...I have very complicated feelings about them as a ship, and ultimately my ideal endgame for them is that they end up as platonic buddies, but I can't deny that I do have a great fondness for a lot of their scenes together and I do think the arc of their relationship does a lot for Buffy's character. (Even if it also causes some problems for her character as well. 😬)

Okay in terms of characters who actually interacted significantly in the show it's probably Giles/Anya because their chemistry was weirdly off the charts but also I would just like to say that I think AtS would've been improved if Gunn had dated Harmony. They had a cute flirty moment in "Disharmony" and I think it could've been really interesting for both characters. Just saying.

[anthonysalazar]

rating the (canon) buffyverse ships based on how much i like them

angel + buffy (7/10) i think it's okay for what it is, but buffy clearly outgrows him in the end but omg that i will always remember you episode on ats is so tragic and made me appreciate them sm more

spike + buffy (9/10) OMG THE SCENE OF THEM IN SEASON 7 WHERE SPIKE SAYS HE LOVES HER NOT BECAUSE OF WHAT SHE DOES OR BECAUSE HE'S GETTING ANYTHING IN RETURN BUT BECAUSE OF WHO SHE IS AND WHAT SHE IS IS SO. i love them together omg.

riley + buffy (6/10) i don't like hate them? riley had sm potential as a character and as a boyfriend but good lord did they handle him badly. they could've made him a cute golden retriever boyfriend for buffy but instead they made him toxic masculinity TM. season 4 riley is enjoyable though, just once you get to season 5 he becomes annoying and pretty unbearable

willow + oz (8/10) SO CUTE!! i will always be mad that they wrote willow as a complete lesbian, as i know sexuality is fluid but her romance with both oz and tara read more as a bisexual woman rather than a lesbian. i wish oz had stayed on the show longer though as he was amazing, not just as willow's love interest. i love you forever oz

willow + tara (9/10)

i love them so so so so much my fav sapphic lovers. tara is my favorite buffyverse character besides buffy herself and seeing her character growth that came from willow's open support and friendship that blossomed into a romance was one of the greatest romance arcs on television i love them sm. willow's magic addiction is weird though in season 6 and weighs on their relationship a bit but in the end i love them

willow + kennedy (1/10) ew. i don't have to explain myself just ew.

willow + xander (1/10) no. no no no no no.

xander + cordelia (3/10) ew no, i will forever hate xander harris and pairing my girl cordy with him will forever make me mad AND THEN HE CHEATS ON HER???? vile.

xander + anya (6/10) i actually don't hate them sometimes, but it infuriated how often he undermined her when she was one of the most knowledgeable characters in the buffyverse on history with magic and etc. their little arc during once more with feeling made me like them a lot more though

spike + anya (5/10) i don't take it seriously as a ship but it was so funny when it did happen and i love it for that

cordelia + angel (8/10) SUCH A BETTER PAIRING FOR THESE CHARACTERS THEY SHOULD'VE BEEN THE ENDGAME!

giles + jenny (9/10) SO CUTE. THE TRAGEDY OMG I SOBBED SO HARD WHEN JENNY DIED I MISS YOU SM. the pining, the difference in technology vs physical information, etc. their dynamic was adorable and i'll always miss her sm

buffy + robin (4/10) very short lived and fizzled out so fast that it barely counts, i like robin alot though and wish he was given more to do as i found him interesting

drusilla + spike (7/10) i kinda love their devotion to each other even if it was extremely unhealthy, aesthetically also a very sexy ship and i love them for that

angel + darla (8/10) darla is one of the most underrated buffyverse characters and her arc in ats made her so so so fascinating that i am partially giving it such a high score because of my fascination with darla

fred + gunn (9/10) so cute!! i love them so much and it was so wholesome

fred + wesley (6/10) good amount of pining i guess? i don't have much to say about it but it was enjoyable enough

doyle + cordelia (7/10) so cute also!! i wish doyle had stayed around longer as i loved him lots

wesley + cordelia (3/10) ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew. SHE WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL DUDE IDC SO GROSS

wesley + lilah (7/10) in terms of functionality, not the best, BUT in terms of my fascination, very very high up omg

harmony + spike (4/10) also kinda a crack ship but it was funny while it lasted, harm deserved better though

(i think i covered them all but if there's more i'll update this)

[spangelmybeloved]

Thank you for saying what you did on my Xander post! Because I read the end of your response like... wait, yeah, Xander was never was in my top faves either and I'm just so on the defensive of him all the time now because his haters do blow everything out of proportion! And I am pretty anti-Xanya because Anya absolutely coerced him into a relationship, but I had to restrain myself on that because Anya is so beloved, haha.

Anyway, I was expecting a lot of shade for that post so I just wanted to thank you for backing me!

yeah, no problem!

As I've said, Xander has never been my number one fav (though, a lot of my favs also get a lot of hate, so...) but he gets a disproportionate amount of hate and I kind of feel bad for the guy.

I'm also very much not a xanya fan, either, I think maybe they could have made it work for me but they very much did not. I'm not even that squicked by the unhealthy aspects of it, cause, well, all the Buffyverse ships have 'em to some extent. But it does frustrate me when fans pin it all on Xander or whine about other ships being unhealthy while shipping Xanya... but yeah, I 100% see where you're coming from with that one.

[buffysummers]

I mean Cordelia as a character, Kendra as a character and Buffy/Faith as a pairing. Sorry for the confusion.

No worries! Just gonna answer it here ❤️

Buffy/Faith: They're my second favorite ship in the Buffyverse, and I also think they're the most layered and complex in the Buffyverse (if there's ONE dynamic that could potentially rival it in complexity, it would be Angel/Darla). There's just so much going on, and so little is communicated. It mostly exists in the quiet moments, like when Faith goes to say something to Buffy after she says she's on her side and that she can trust her, but stops herself. What was she going to say? Or the way Faith lights up like a Christmas tree when Buffy says she's glad she came. Or when Faith hears Buffy needs her, and she just shows up for her without thinking about it, despite their history. Faith is jealous of Buffy, Buffy is jealous of Faith. They represent each other's insecurities, and the darkness and depths of their duty. There's just such a deep level of understanding, while simultaneously having this massive wall that prevents them from truly opening up to each other. Which is why season seven is so important because Faith finally gets what she always wanted: to be important, to be the leader, to have the house and the Scooby gang. And yet she feels so alone and now she FINALLY she understands the pressure Buffy's been under for all these years. And when Buffy's abandoned, when she's treated like a useless irredeemable killer while inhabiting Faith's body, she knows what it's like to be Faith, too. I really could go on forever and this is already so long but I just have so many feelings about them.

Kendra: We didn't really see that much of her, but what we saw of her, I liked a lot. She was sarcastic and sure of herself, and she was also incredibly kind to Buffy. They both learn from each other in the very little time they spend together, and they trust each other. When she tells Buffy that she isn't the only freak, yeah.... it's beautiful. It's sad that we really only see her in her relation to Buffy, but she's a queen, nonetheless.

Cordelia: I know we see so much of Cordelia, but I don't really vibe with her. I don't vibe with the "Queen B" kinds of characters, bullies aren't iconic to me. She does have some funny moments and I do feel her absence when she leaves, but she's never been a fav of mine like she is with a lot of the fandom.

i’m bored, so if you feel like it, send me a few characters and/or ships and I will rank them, with a brief explanation as to why!

[rahirah]

Do you prefer Spuffy when Spike is souled or not? And what do you think of Spuffy but between a vampire Buffy and Spike (both unsouled)?

I’m not that interested in vampire Buffy, with or without a soul, because one of my narrative SF/fantasy kinks is people from different species, with different needs and outlooks, having to bridge their differences to have a successful relationship.  Making Buffy and Spike both vampires (or making them both human) takes away that aspect, and so it’s less appealing to me.  There have been some very good vampire Buffy fics out there, no question, it’s just not my personal fav.

It's harder for me to answer your other question, because there are so many ways to handle both souled and unsouled Spuffy.  For example, I wasn't terribly thrilled with the way canon handled either unsouled OR souled Spuffy; for me, seasons 6 and 7 were sort of like the writers sat down at the end of S5 and said, "Ok, what can we do to make Barb hate the ship she currently loves like burning?  Let's make a list!"  And then proceeded to check said list twice.   That's not to say that there is nothing I like about canon Spuffy; there have always been moments that I loved, moments which showed the potential the ship had, moments that kept me hoping that some day that potential would be allowed to flower.  But S10 of the comics is the first time since S5 I can honestly say that overall, I enjoyed the way they were portrayed as a couple.

Basically, the things that intrigue and appeal to me about Spuffy are not the things that the show's writers wanted to write about.  Which is fine; they are under no obligation to please me in particular.  I like Spuffy best when it's full of fire and snark and spirit, when both characters are confident enough to challenge each other, as well as be tender with one another.  I want to see them cuddling and trading quips and sparring together and crying on each other's shoulders and having knock-down drag-out arguments.  I like fic that remembers that soul or no soul, Spike’s a vampire, and Buffy’s a Slayer.   I love it when the relationship is used as a device to test the moral and ethical framework of the universe to destruction, and to make the characters question themselves.  For me, anyway, the show never managed to do that – not on purpose, anyway.  Really doing it would have involved making things a lot more complex than I think the writers wanted to deal with – for example, "If a vampire can theoretically be redeemed, sorta, without a soul, then is Buffy a murderer?" along with the more personal question of "If Spike can love (however imperfectly he does so) without a soul, why couldn't Angel?" are places that the show didn't want to go.  Having edged up to these questions, almost by accident, as a byproduct of ensuring that Spike, as a popular character, would stay on the show, they panicked and backed away from them.  And again, that's fine.  They get to write what they want to write.  My only quibble in that regard is the legion of fans who seem to think that because the show didn't want to go there, no one should go there, or that going there is impossible because the writers chose not to do it.

I find it easier to explore questions like that when Spike doesn't have a soul.  I think the idea of an evil demon (and despite my own penchant for a more science fictiony approach, I do think that Buffyverse vampires are evil and not just amoral predators, if only because it's a label they proudly claim for themselves) who wants to be good is incredibly interesting.  Plus I think that Angel pretty much covered the brooding and self-loathing bit, and unless the writers are willing to really dig into the difference between an evil vampire who willingly chose to get a soul and an evil vampire who was forced to get one, there's not much new you can do there with Spike.  And the writers didn't seem willing to do that, bar the fight scene in Destiny, which was really all about exacerbating Angel's self-doubt.  In the comics, in fact, they went out of their way to make Spike as Angel-like as possible (referring to his unsouled self as another person in several instances, etc.)   So, eh.  

In canon, I accept that giving Spike a soul is the only way the writers were willing to put him together (kinda, if you see S7 as them being together) with Buffy, so I grin and bear it.  And I realize that for a lot of fans, Spike having a soul is the only way they'll accept putting Spike with Buffy, too, even in AUs where Seeing Red never happened.  All things considered, it's understandable. Plus it is absolutely, positively true that Spike is a better person with a soul than without one, and it is much easier to write a functioning Spuffy relationship when Spike has a soul.  So I'm perfectly happy to read souled Spuffy fanfic, and there's plenty of it that I love.  But despite that... I admit that my very favorite Spuffy is unsouled Spuffy which tackles the difficulties of such a relationship head-on, and doesn't succumb to either the Scylla of making soulless Spike too nice and easily tamed, or the Charybdis of S6-level angst and misery.  And lemme tell you, I can say from personal experience that navigating that particular writerly whirlpool is HARD.  Really hard.  It's very difficult to find fic that hits that sweet spot perfectly.  But when I do, it's golden.  (And god damn it, I have a chapter of one such fic that I have to beta THIS WEEKEND NO EXCUSES.)