#it's up for interpretation of what you believe Kestrel's being here

[namesareweird579]

Hey Kestrel remake

[kingdarkstalker]

hello, I'm glad to have seen this since I don't really participate in online fandoms of media I enjoy, so sometimes I just form one opinion about a thing and then it never gets challenged. I read the first arc in elementary school, I'm a teenager now, and I guess I just want to know if, in your opinion, it would be weird or like, idk, bad, to reread the books I own. I mean, it's been a comfort series for so long. and I've been super oblivious to the fact that I somehow interpreted everything way differently than it was written. like how I thought the dragonets dealing with their abuse differently was just showing different coping things, and didn't even notice that sunny was rewarded for her reaction and everyone else wasn't. I thought Coral was meant to be a villain, Webs was meant to be pathetic and an enabling bystander, Darkstalker was meant to be morally gray, and every single character was meant to be flawed and would continue to change and grow off screen after the books. it seems silly or maybe cognitive dissonance for me to have just somehow convinced myself that like, there was an implication that all of the "solutions" to the conflict were not perfect and required continuous work to keep slowly improving over time. like it's so obvious now that the things I imagined happening off screen were headcanons, yet somehow I conflated them with the canon and convinced myself that glory broke up with deathbringer, sunny finally realized that kestrel dune and webs didn't have some sort of reason to abuse them and some people are terrible and not worth her compassion, everyone stopped being mean to stonemover, and everyone dismantled the monarchies, and the hivewings, even though they weren't killed (except for wasp), were held accountable and forced to confront the fact that they actively benefited from the societal oppression of silkwings and genocide of leaf wings and did nothing about it. also I really thought that clearsight taught pantalans her language but also learned their language and both sides exchanged knowledge of cultures. so now that I've finally realized that the canon is nothing like how I interpreted it, I don't know how to feel about the concept of rereading them or finding comfort in them. I mean I know I can like something and critique it but this is more than plot holes and mistakes. it's racist propaganda and I can't believe I never noticed. it's weird because I feel like I never want to read them again, but also like I want to reread them more with sticky notes and highlighters and change it to be what I want it to be. I also don't know how I'm going to interact with my friends that are fans of wof now... I'm scared of confrontation but I definitely feel like I need to tell them about it.

there is one thing that I disagree with you about. to me it seems like you are saying that people need to treat darkstalker with more nuance rather than just big bad guy, which, yes, I honestly didn't realize some people even thought he was 100% bad? but then you say that clearsight was awful and stuff, but she was also a child, with what I interpret as an anxiety disorder. and her paranoia about darkstalker becoming a murderer hurt him, but she wasn't...choosing to be paranoid, right? i see people on here wishing her death and I just don't see how that's different from people wishing darkstalker to be turned into peacemaker. and lots of people hate on indigo but she was also just very paranoid and distrusting of anyone (especially animi, except fathom) because of her and fathom's PTSD. like, is that not also valid? like can't they all be morally gray and nuanced? idk if I misinterpreted what you and other askers were saying though. also I acknowledge that I might not even have that opinion if I didn't relate to clearsight for a lot of the legends book.

overall I'm just so baffled at how i managed to do the mental gymnastics to believe that so many problematic things just... didn't happen? or were retconned off screen?? like how did my brain even do that? it's like I was reading different books entirely.

howdy, happy to have been able to provide a different perspective!

no, not at all. despite the problems with it, reading wings of fire does not make you a terrible person, nor does enjoying the story or the characters that tui created. i dont think WOF is necessarily as harmful as it could be, but what concerns me about new readers is simply that they may not read past tui's very surface level (and often incorrect) commentary about things like abuse and bigotry. but that doesnt mean you cant still enjoy the world imagined and the potential it holds. reading things with mistakes--especially re-reading them--can help you recognize what patterns to look for while reading and/or avoid while writing, etc

like you said though, re-reading it with the awareness of tui's misguided or sometimes even malicious messages is unpleasant. especially thinking about the great potential of it all. if you feel like you have the energy, i do encourage going back and making notes on what you'd change! you've already reflected on the problems very carefully, everything you summarized was very similar to how i felt on first realization

i truly hope your friends are understanding and willing to take a second look at WOF from a critical lens. it always feels horrible having a comfort media sort of dissolve so you can see its ugly bones (trust me ive gone through it too), but whats important is what you learn from that media and, if necessary, separate yourself from it, while taking the things that were comforting and making them your own

re: clearsight, i definitely agree with your points, and admittedly i have been bias in my earlier posts about her. she definitely was struggling with overwhelming anxiety, and any young teen who can see every future is going to have a different way of coping about it. clearsight isnt awful for being paranoid or trying to control things her own way (turning herself into a religion is another thing), she's an awful character because her flaws are rewarded instead of properly explored. i feel like moonwatcher was a better example of a character struggling with that kind of mental state and how it affects their loved ones

cause like, with clearsight, the problem i have isnt even the actions she took that were harmful as a child. darkstalker did plenty of that himself, they both together were an opportunity of how the same kind of mental instability is delt with. problem is, clearsight is portrayed by tui sutherland as Correct The Entire Time. like, she was right to be paranoid. she was right to think darkstalker was evil. she was right to have zero faith in him, because she was right that it was inevitable. this could have been a very self-fulfilling prophecy type of arc where both characters were destructive to each other, but clearsight is literally rewarded for her lifelong anxiety by essentially becoming a prophetic diety, and getting an exotic husband to have her dream kids with. this was the way tui sutherland wrote clearsight on purpose--to be a supposed underdog, to be the "good" mentally ill child (shes certainly not an abuse survivor like darkstalker, she has a healthy home life and support system) and she never acts out in the way darkstalker does, she in fact is portrayed as an underdog-turned-goddess. which would make for a great villain, but tui seems to write clearsight as a relatable and admirable figure, while reserving her narrative punishment for the problem children like darkstalker

TL;DR i dont think clearsight herself was awful as a child, just that she made awful decisions and is written awfully with an awful message lol

indigo i have less to say about because you're right, shes essentially just extremely traumatized for all the right reasons. i do think that the way tui justifies her fear and hatred towards animus magic (and therefore, an intrinsic part of who fathom is) as an ableist "theres only a matter of time before they snap" kind of implication that contributes to tui's weird "mentally unstable people are dangerous and will kill you" take. even if turtle later disproves this, indigo never grows past "all animus are evil and fathom must never do magic ever or hell be a monster" which i guess just doesnt feel fair to fathom

try not to feel so down on yourself though for not immediately recognizing all these problems, especially if you're young. we're all constantly learning new things, and not being aware of something doesnt mean you dont care about it. its never too late to go back and re-evaluate anything that you consume or create, with the new things that you've come to learn since then!

[aaronymous9]

Has anyone else noticed that like Skywings are the most villainized tribe in the text by far? Like I don’t think Skywings are bad or anything I’m just saying that with certain interpretations of the text the writing really makes all Skywings seem “evil”? Or at least morally gray. This is probably really poorly constructed because it’s just something I’ve noticed but the only Skywing who doesn’t really do anything “bad” in the books are Sky and Cliff. Cliff being a dragonet and Sky being raised outside of his tribe, without fire and a character who is very much infantilized by the text. You probably could make an argument for Ruby as well and that’s really about all the “good” Skywings. For the morally grey Skywings you have Osprey, Kestrel and Peril. Osprey didn’t really do much wrong but I believe he supported Scarlet and was portrayed as kind of pretentious ( or at least that’s how I interpreted it ). Kestrel is physically abusive and really fucking mean, I think that one is pretty obvious, she does have a good side but only characters such as Sunny really cared about her. And Peril, while she has a redemption arc she killed presumably hundreds of dragons before the events of the first book, and is portrayed as unhealthy obsessive which is a generally negative trait in writing. I’d also like to mention Flame here, who was portrayed as murderous and ready to harm other dragons. Then of course, there is Queen Scarlet who was one of the biggest antagonists of the 1st and 2nd arc to an extent. And to clarify, I’m not really sure what I interpret from this observation, either that Skywing’s culture is meant to be shown as bad ( like guys the biggest and most recognizable part of their culture is an arena where dragons are forced to KILL eachother ) I think this interpretation could work, it was kinda the same with the Icewings and book 14 showed that it could be changed so the next generation of Icewings would be… less rude, dragon xenophobic and generally bad people. Also not to mention some of the only Skywings portrayed as morally good being very young dragonets or Skywings who’ve barely even met a Skywing before. The one problem with this, is if that’s what Tui was going for, I really don’t feel like it was portrayed very well? Like whenever dragons mention problems with the Sky Kingdom such as Queen Scarlet, killing firescales in their eggs, the arena, etc. nobody tries to do anything about it? It’s assumed that with Queen Ruby’s rule the Skywings will get much better but I really don’t think it’s portrayed as well as when Snowfall broke the Great Ice Cliff due to the lack of Skywing perspectives and insight into their kingdom. Not to mention that the only neutral or good Skywing cultural aspect is… being religious. Like that’s super interesting I just feel it’s quite odd? I’ve said this before but the fact that most tribes most recognizable cultural aspects are about dragon murder, dragonet murder, mistreating dragonets or just generally being assholes is kind of concerning. This could be done well sure but when Icewings have so little to their culture in the books that fans get mad their society’s worst feature gets destroyed is a bit of a worldbuilding fault in my opinion. Also about Skywings and Icewings, I just really think it’s odd that the only “good” Skywings and Icewings are ones who got a redemption arc, dragonets or ones who did not grow up with the culture. The literal only exceptions to this rule would probably be Lynx and if you stretched a little bit Ruby. It just kinda paints the whole tribes as grumpy assholes which is kinda odd considering that is literally the stereotype used to make fun of the two tribes in the books? Just feels weird for a kids book to lowkey confirm a stereotype instead of try and have the main character rebel against it.

Sorry for the weirdly written ramble but point is, oh my god the worldbuilding is so lackluster and even when big chances happen in the Wings of Fire world it feels like nothing has even changed because we didn’t get enough time to see the culture of the tribes before things changed. Anyways, if Tui retired and handed off the writing of the Wof series to me I could not do better than her but what I would do would be try and improve the worldbuilding and make longer books centered on each tribe and it’s culture. ( Imagine Clay’s book except it’s much longer and in that length where Clay is staying with the Mudwings you learn so much more about Mudwings and what their life and culture is like )

[aer-in-wanderland]

구미호뎐 | Tale of the Nine Tailed - Ji Ah’s Fate & the Korean Mythology Surrounding It (requested by @kestrel-of-herran)

Ask: One of the most fascinating things for me is the prophecy the fortune teller told Ji Ah when she gave him the fox bead. I feel like that's important foreshadowing for the drama's ending. How would you translate and interpret that?

Note: words/terms left in Korean require context and will be discussed below.

EP06 The Four Pillars of Fate - Ji Ah Trades the Fox Bead

Ji Ah: I’ll repay this eunhye no matter what, please? 

Fortune Teller: Okay, okay! You were a princess in your past life, do you think you’re a princess now? You think if you whine enough you can have anything. Ei! Your hand. Give me thine hand. (Ji Ah extends her right hand). Left hand!

Ji Ah: (changing hands) Left hand. 

Fortune Teller: You were born with a very special saju weren’t you! Water and fire vie on par, earth is clouded, but metal will subdue it, so though darkness should surround you (literally: all four directions, heaven, and earth), a moon rises in your sky. 

Ji Ah: I’m not sure what you mean...?

Fortune Teller: You have the fox bead! For that is your moon.

Ji Ah: Excuse me?

Fortune Teller: Give to me the fox bead. Even without a moon, your saju is overflowing enough. Therefore...!

Ji Ah: I’ll give it to you! I don’t believe in such things as palja. 

Fortune Teller: The deal...has been accepted. 

Ji Ah: Pardon? Already?

Fortune Teller: Your palm lines. Your palm lines have changed. 

(Note: I translated this working from the raw, so I haven’t seen the subs to be able to comment on them). 

Eunhye (은혜)

Commonly translated as a ‘favor’ or ‘debt,’ ‘eunhye’ is distinct from both of these both linguistically and conceptually. When Yeon says that foxes are obligated to repay ‘debts,’ he’s actually talking about eunhye. ‘Debt’ is another word entirely (빚) and it does appear occasionally. The two are distinct. The glowing ring bonds formed between Yeon and Ah Eum, and Rang and Sajang are both manifestations of eunhye. 

One Korean folktale in which eunhye features famously is the tale of the Grateful Magpies (은혜갚은 까치, literally: ‘the magpies who repaid their eunhye’). Shin Joo refers to this in EP02 when Yeon tells him about returning Ji Ah’s eyesight to her even after she tranquilized him:

Shin Joo: And you’re saying you just let her go? And returned her sight, too? 

Yeon: Since rules are rules.

Shin Joo: It’s not as if we’re magpies meticulously repaying our eunhye! Geez, how long do we have to be bound by that sort of premodern contractual relationship?

Eunhye is difficult to translate but can be approximated as ‘help or favor (as in ‘to favor someone’) given willingly.’ In my mind, rather than a debt which is a negative concept, eunhye is more of a positive concept. There’s a voluntary, good faith/good will element to it. So you’re ‘indebted’ as the result of a good deed done for you. Except it’s not so voluntary if you’re a gumiho, apparently. 

In contrast, when Yeon tells Eodukshini, ‘I’ll repay this debt shortly,’ in EP08 (could also be translated sarcastically as ‘I’ll return the favor shortly’), he uses the actual word for debt (빚) - no good will to be had here on either side. 

Saju Palja (사주팔자）

Literally ‘four pillars eight characters’ (四柱八字), commonly translated as the ‘four pillars of destiny/fate.’ The concept comes from the Chinese astrological concept that a person’s destiny or fate can be divined by the two sexagenary cycle characters assigned to their birth year, month, day, and hour. For more on that, I’ll refer you to Wikipedia. ;) 

In EP02, when Yeon asks Taluipa to look into whether Ji Ah’s parents are alive or dead, he has Ji Ah text him their saju (birth dates and times). 

I’m not sure how palmistry fits in with the concept, and am no expert in astrology, western or eastern, so I can’t offer any interpretation of the fortune teller’s prophecy, but if anyone wants to try looking into it I’d be intrigued to hear what you find. Apparently, the writer spent 2.5 years on the script, so I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that there’s actual meaning behind it. 

The Fox Bead (여우 구슬)

Fox beads are a common earmark of gumiho lore in both Korea and Japan (and probably China, too, but I don’t know enough Chinese to speak to that). In most tellings I’ve encountered, a fox can’t live without their bead, but that doesn’t appear to be the case for Yeon. I was also intrigued by the following exchange he has with the Magistrate in EP06:

Yeon: That’s the Mirror of the Moon. Do you mean to harm (literally: catch) a human with one of the four great mountain gods’ four great treasures meant to protect all creation? 

Magistrate: And so, did your fox bead protect all of creation? Or did it protect one person?

To my thinking, this implies that Yeon’s fox bead is being attributed to his status as a mountain god as much as it is to his being a fox. None of our other foxes seem to have one, but none of them are gumiho (gu = nine, ie. the number of tails), much less cheonho (heavenly foxes) like Yeon. 

I’m actually a little unclear on this front as well. According to the excerpt from the Hyeonjoong’gi (玄中記) at the start of the first episode, foxes that live to be a hundred can take human form and foxes that live to be a thousand become cheonho. Shin Joo is obviously at least 600 years old but he doesn’t appear to be anywhere near Yeon’s caliber (or even Rang’s who is half human), something he says himself, and in the spin-off he only had one tail. Yoo Ri is younger still. It’s unclear to me whether they will ‘level up' if they live long enough, or if they will never be as powerful as Yeon, regardless of how long they live. I get the sense it’s the latter. Both Yeon and Shin Joo have said that Yeon was of a different caliber from the very beginning (in EP02 and EP03, respectively). 

Finally, we haven’t been told much about the fox bead’s powers other than emitting an aura only Yeon can see (sometimes) and suppressing Imoogi inside of Ji Ah. I’m hoping we see it again before the series wraps, but not convinced they’ll have time to recover it given everything else that needs to happen.

On another note, based on the preview for EP15, it appears that the Magistrate’s Mirror of the Moon will be coming back into play. My guess is that Imoogi is going to steal it from the Magistrate and use it on Taluipa. She was shown turned to stone in the background while Yeon and Terry-Imoogi fight. That’s originally her power, so I think Imoogi may use the mirror against her similarly to how the Magistrate ‘absorbed’ the sword Yeon sent flying at him and re-directed it at Ji Ah. 

The Jeo Seung Shi Wang (저승 시왕)

The Ten Kings of the Afterlife (jeo-seung-shi-wang) [저승 시왕], as they’re known in the drama, are more commonly called the Ten Kings of the Underworld (myeong-bu-shi-wang) [명부 시왕・冥府十王]. In the subs they appear as the Afterlife Judges, which is accurate in that this is one of the key roles that they perform. As we're told in EP13, the fortune teller is actually one of them. 

Yeon: What’s the word? That fortune teller, did you find out about him?

Snail Bride: I’ve been asking around via our patrons. 

Yeon: He didn’t seem to be just another low-level native (Korean) god. What’s the geezer’s deal?

Snail Bride: This seems like just a baseless rumour, but there was talk that one of the Ten Kings of the Afterlife who rule over hell leaves his position without notice at odd times.

Yeon: Heh...Interesting. In any case, relay any news you hear about that geezer to me as soon as you hear it. 

While the Snail Bride seems to doubt the validity of the rumour, Yeon appears confident it’s true. He later relays this to Team Fox at their strategy meeting:

Yeon: Do you remember the fortune teller we met at the Korean Folk Village?

Ji Ah: Of course I remember! (Shooting Rang a dirty look) Because of someone [your] fox bead was stolen from us.

Rang: I heard rumour he’s a major big shot. Is it true?

Yeon: He’s one of the Ten Kings of Hell. 

Rang: What?!

Yeon: They say he’s also in possession of the Uiryeong’geom (geom = sword). 

Rang: No way~

Jae Hwan: What’s the Uiryeong’geom?

Shin Joo: It’s a sword that cuts evil (literally: sins). 

Jae Hwan: Cuts...evil, you said?

Shin Joo: It’s sword they say was made in ancient days by King Yeomra himself from a branch he broke off of the Uiryeongsu (su = tree) that weighs sins. But, didn’t that disappear from the world several thousand years ago? 

Yeon: (Shaking his head) Uh-uh. The Snail Bride just picked it up.

As you may recall, the Ten Kings are the ones who put a celestial hit on Rang which led Yeon to track him down and pretend to kill him (thanks for the angst), and they’re the ones who passed judgement on Yeon after he killed the mudang (shamanness) and sentenced him to time in the Snow Mountain Prison. 

It appears that there was some confusion going around that the fortune teller is King Yeomra. Given the above dialogue, I can see where people may have understood his possession of the sword to indicate that, and, in truth, we don’t know which of the Ten Kings he is. That being said, I think if King Yeomra was frequently vacating his post without notice, someone would have said something. I also think Yeomra is a big enough name that if it were him they would’ve just come out and said so. Yeomra is also Taluipa’s brother so she, at least, would know. My assumption was that he was one of the other, less well known kings. 

To conclude, this has all been a long way of saying that I have no idea what Ji Ah’s palja will mean for her fate. What I can provide is a little context. I’m not familiar with the sword, and it doesn’t turn up when I google it, so I suspect it was invented for the purpose of the show. Whether it remains a red herring until the end or shows up in the final hour remains to be seen. 

[nmirah]

Hi there! First of all, your art is gorgeous and I love your fic! Second, I was wondering why Crowfeather is WindClan’s medicine cat in the Jaywing AU. It sounds super interesting and I wondered if there was a story behind it? What made Crow train as a meddie?

Thank you! And dang, good question! Alright, here’s what made Crow be a med cat ;D Under the cut cause I wrote a lot

             I believe that Crow just always knew he wanted to be a medicine cat; he wanted to be important and knowledgeable. He would always watch Barkface work and think ‘that’s what I want to do.’ It wasn’t really about helping cats, tho that was part of it, but more about knowing a lot of things, being able to give advice to the leaders (he is good at strategy), and being able to deal with problems with rationality rather than with claws.

              Crow was always kind of self-assured and spoiled; he was the only livingkit of his mother (Ashfoot) and his father was the WindClan deputy. At the timehe became an apprentice, he was positive he was going to be the next medicinecat; he prided himself on his knowledge and his ability to pick up herbsquickly. He didn’t care much for fighting, though he still enjoyed hunting fromtime to time. He’d always thought that fighting was a very brutish way to dealwith problems, but still loved the thrill of chasing a rabbit on the moors.

               He alsohad a connection with StarClan, one that began with the death of his father. Onhis first visit to the moonstone, he met his father for the first time sincehe’d died. This solidified his choice of becoming a medicine cat. Barkface, hismentor, was already quite old, and he was very kind and patient with Crowpaw.He always commented on how much like Hawkheart (the med cat before Barkface) Crowpawwas.

               WhenCrowpaw went on the journey, he tried to take the role of leader, as he had theclosest connection with StarClan. However, his attitude caused the other catsto not listen to him as obediently as he thought they should, so he relentedthe position to Brambleclaw. (all in his mind lol its not like they had a vote, Crow is p self-centered)

               He wasinvaluable on the journey, fixing al their cuts and scratches. When Tawnypeltcame down with a horrible fevered infection from the rat bite, he was the oneto save her life, staying up all night to soothe her nightmares and give her water. Feathertail, too, was injured in a battle with a sprainedpaw, and he kept the swelling and the pain down so she could keep up with theparty, making sure they took frequent breaks.

               Its upto interpretation ofc, but I see the bond between crowpaw and feathertail asbeing a very platonic relationship here, bonded because he saved her life. There was no romantic feelings between them; Feathertail quite a bit older than him and he was a medicine cat who took his vows seriously.Heconsidered the entire party to be his clanmates, and convinced himself that he wasresponsible for their well-being. He loved all of them, the bond they six ofthem shared grew strong over the two moons it took for them to complete thejourney. 

               Thiswas why is was so devastating when Feathertail died saving all of them from Sharptooth(specifically Stormfur, who was very close to dying.) He tried to save her,but she’d died upon impact, her neck breaking. She was the first cat that was under his care to die, and he blamed himself. The blame went away over time, but the memorystayed prominent in his mind. He told the story to Barkface, who named himCrowfeather to honour his first lost ‘clanmate’, and to remember the bond thesix of them had on the journey.

               Barkfacedied on the journey, leaving Crowfeather by himself. He was very lonelyfollowing his loss, and the loss of Tallstar. When Kestrelpaw was a kit,showing signs of interest in herbs, he constantly encouraged him (though withhis same bitter attitude.) the other kits were afraid of him, but Kestrel was smart,and he knew that Crowfeather’s heart was ultimately good. He begged Onestar tobe his apprentice, and Crowfeather was secretly pleased to have an apprenticeliving in his den with him. He feels a lot less lonely, and treats Kestrel likea son.

               (NOTE:Crowfeather in the AU is different from the canon Crow, he has no true children andhas never been in love, he takes his med cat vows very seriously. He is also agood soul, unlike the canon crow lol) (Breezepelt does not exist, as Crow and Night never got together.)