#it's prose tristan isnt it.....

[orkneyism]

i'm reading bédier's tristan and iseut and tristan gets accused of sorcery by the mean barons?? i know they hate him in almost every version but interesting charge as i don't remember it in béroul. is there a preceding work for this or was this 100% bédier??

[lefresne]

ooh in relation to the prose Tristan I think that indeed makes sense !! in the post vulgate it is quite ambiguous, but it is known to draw heavily on the PT! Morgan refers to herself as daughter of a king and as gorlois isnt usually a king (perlesvaus is the exception AS PER USUAL) I kinda assumed she must be uther's daughter. she is also named as uther's daughter in the index of my version of the post-vulgate.

what I find quite funny tho is how malory in attempting to reconcile these diverging traditions ended up with a Morgan that isn't uther's daughter but still retains the whole plot to overthrow Arthur thing which makes no sense bc girl <3 with all due respect, no one is going to side with you during this civil war <3

OMG, I learned that Morgan le fay claims to be Uther's daughter in Prose Tristan. That changes everything if it true.

Oh, like in BBC Merlin? Interesting. It's been a long time since I read Prose Tristan (and I suspect the Lewis Porney translation I've read might've been a very abridged one - for example, I know there's some version in which Dinadan gets buried next to Palamedes, and that one only mentions their deaths in passing), so I don't remember that, but I believe you :D

I wouldn't say there's any "true" version, though, because a lot of stuff varies from text to text. The Vulgate Cycle, for example, mentions that Morgan is a bastard in relation to Igraine's first husband the duke, which doesn't seem to make much sense to me. And the Italian Tavola Ritonda makes the Lady of the Lake the sister to Arthur and Morgan somehow? The beauty of it all is that you can pick and choose the parts you like the most from different versions and compose your own version of Arthuriana in your head

[tillman]

My cuck army is slowly growing and im loosing my shit

[itonje]

could i ask how you got started in arthurian stuff?

okay hi if you’re looking for recommendations or how to like, get into arthurian stuff which is what i’m assuming you’re asking here uhh @/gringolet has a masterpost about all that right up here  which is super comprehensive and good so uh. check that out first. if you want my life story when it comes to arthurian stuff well i guess i’m a bit unorthodox cause i actually really like not-english british history a lot i think it’s very interesting particularly when it comes to wales and welsh stuff so like. that stuff and king arthur has a lot of overlap. 

umm i read the mabinogion stories first, all of the stuff in there is good NOT just the king arthur stuff but if you like that there are three romances in there (lady of the fountain, peredur fab effrawg, geraint and enid) as well as culhwch and olwen and the dream of rhonabwy has arthur and co. show up. also if you like romances i like de troyes actually i read knight of the cart and knight of the lion pretty early and they’re not too long while being good imo if you like just like the classical knightly stories. also the prose tristan some people do not like tristan and iseult stories but i do! i do not have a high emotional investment in the mcs but i do like palamedes and he sure is a character there.  also i read the history of the kings of britain which i like just in general because i think geoffrey of monmouth is a Guy but its less of a story with characters and just a listing off of events and the king arthur stuff isnt all thats there to the books. read the vita merlini for like actual entertainment. ofc the one everyone knows about is sir gawain and the green knight which i’ve read two translations of and made fanart for so obviously i like it. 

uhh also i think that if you want to get into the gist of things reading like, a book for younger audiences is honestly the way to go ngl like especially ones that are based on malory’s le morte which is very long and i feel like some people would definitely find reading that entire thing tedious. uh howard pyle’s has really nice illustrations, the red romance book by andrew lang is good too  there’s other stuff in there in addition to arthur, roger lancelyn green’s is good plus it adds extra stories from other sources. also i dont know how easy bookstores are to go to in a pandemic LOL if you see like one of those encylopedias or guides will help probably i have one by ronan coghlan from god knows where sitting in my attic i got in fifth grade and never read until last year. 

also there are a lot of victorian things but that’s covered in the masterpost i linked above so yeah i  have not much to add except i like idylls of the king a lot. its good. also richard hovey’s stuff made me cry once (complementary). all of these barring the encyclopedia are available online for free and i have a couple pdfs myself so like if you have trouble finding anything shoot me an ask haha good luck

[tillman]

top ten worst arthurian takes GO

god how can you limit me to only ten. almost everything everyone says is just so dumb in some way and god the main thing? i wouldnt give a shit i really wouldnt if people didnt constantly act like theyre talking about the REAL legends <3 and then source toafk.

and like. okay! i dont expect people to have read everything. thats fucking impossible. who is going to have read 1000 years worth of literature. but to then either claim superiority cus u like one branch over another or cus you think youre too cool to just.. admit u dont know something? it makes me very angry and i am legally allowed to bully you.

anyways under a cut cus well .... anyways im going to be mean i dont give a shit. 

10) this is a catch all one but literally everything to do with lancelot. every single fucking thing. none of you people are normal.  the idea hes some sort of awful parent, the idea hes a “later addition” to the legends (just ... not true?????? the vulgate alone which solidified his existence is ..... 13th century..... thats.... so early in terms of arthuriana......), the general conception he fits into this “bimbo” type archetype (specifically that) in see him being characterized as a slutty and stupid vapid person whos only with guenevere to get closer to arthur, THE IDEA HES EVEN VAGUELY CLOSE TO ARTHUR? thats a huge plot point in a lot of the vulgate lancelot doesnt give a SHIT about arthur, th white, making him into the stereotypical full of himself man, bro its literally all fucking bad. whatever have your own takes on the character but hes . fucking hell just stop talking about lancelot if you cant be normal.

9) th white. i dont care anymore i dont think anyone should be looking at his work anymore it has nothing worthy of any attention. it truly has no value. 

8) jesus fuck uhm theres a lot i could say about how the general fandom and books themselves treat women but the treatment of morgause is just abhorrent. she isnt a fucking r*****. lot is literally worse than her in terms of parenting and being a human being yet shes the only one demonized ever. and like. okay! you can write her as an abusive mother and be uncomfortable with how she is written in the text but modern texts making HER the one to initiate the thing w arthur .... usually against his will for some reason. well. fuck you.  also not a huge thing but portraying guenevere as an abuser is rooted in so much misogyny. this is not the place to have a serious discussion about that but just be aware of how u are thinking about characters. 

7) everything to do with galahad and mordred LOL not even just galadred but bro they are substanceless characters theyre not that fucking deep. 

6) uhhh also everything to do with arthur/guenevere/lancelot <3 the power and age dynamic at play here literally physically makes me sick and also its glorified so heavily i just dont think you people should be allowed to touch these characters. it doesnt even have any hold in text you people just read th white and some other nonsense and were like wow <3 polycules solve all issues <3 and like they do but not this one LOL

5) stop combining elaine of astolat and elaine of corbenic this isnt a complaint this is a fucking PLEA I AM BEGGING you people. aslo please treat elaine of astolat right i love her so so much she means the world to me

4) i think you people are fucking weird around kay. ohhh booohooo the french were meaaan to himmmmmm. okay. stop pointing at the prehistories for reasons kay is actually sooo cool and soooo competent. ohhh hes soooo cool in the welsh texts. thats cool for the welsh texts and doesnt have anything to do with how hes characterized in literally everything else. he doesnt haev to be this competant killing machine to be a really cool character. also hes not. he. hes not thor? 

3) here this is a complaint for the original texts but villainizing gawain? cool thats hot. doing that by making him into a sexual abuser? i hate you. i hate you. prose tristan author and the post vulgate author who took it from them im going to litearlly fucking twist your head off your body.  oh here ill tie this back to the general fandom. gawain isnt some fucking “cinnamon roll” being “uwu slandered by the evil dutch texts fans...” gawains a shitty person and thats cool. hes mean and devious and smarmy and uses the image of the perfect knight to get thorugh loopholes. SGATGK isnt the only text in existance. its also not... an “early text” its pretty late. its. its the 14th century thats after lancelot was introduced to the . hes. its late okay.

2) if i have to see one more fucking take that isolde gave tristan the potion knowingly i literally might snap this is a threat. i cant fucking do it where are you people getting this from its jsut so fucking insane and so . wrong ? disgusting ? like i get it no ones read anything tristan and isolde related besides misreading le morte but jesus fucking CHRIST where are you even getting this one why do i have to KEEP seeing it.

1) STOP. making characters cishet.  stop it. stop. i fucking see you cishets. STOP thinking the arthurian stories are for you. they arent. shut the fuck up. 

anwyays thats all i. this was mean sorry im being mean right now but god <3 you people are fucking insane.

the thing i want to note is hey. its okay to not know things. arthuriana spans a thousand years of texts. if you only like the modern stuff cool good for you i hope you have fun. i do truly hope my friends and i are starting to create a space that people are comfortable admitting you dont know something or to ask questions or just simply not want to know. like thats cool and fine of you! do that! 

just stop fucking making weird arthurian takes and making me look at them. thank u. 

[tillman]

how do you think Galehaut and Isolde would get along

oh they canonically get along pretty well! at least in the one version of the prose tristan i read (the povest) when galehaut and tristan fight, afterwards they all hang out for a few months and she seems cool with it when galehaut says tristan isnt allowed to leave his side. i think they would be very close anyways they both care deeply for those that they love, they are smart and do stupid shit in the name of love, and they both have the worst taste in men ive ever seen in my fucking life.