#imo that's why they've made zemo actually hate hydra a bit

[kelvintimeline]

oh no, ur absolutely right! fwiw i'm a leftist from a formerly socialist country so i def agree that sometimes violence is needed to achieve those goals & push back at a system built on ur suffering. also i'm not denying that the writers are demonizing leftist ideology they've made that clear lmao altho tbh i never expected anything better from marvel. my comment was just abt the ''supremacist'' line since i think it's important to pay attention to who's delivering them bc it changes the meaning

I mean, I am paying attention to who says it and that’s the problem.

Zemo says it (a “villain” who has already had multiple “he’s out of line but technically correct moments,” so we’re supposed to both be wary of him and also accept that sometimes he’s right), Sam and Bucky rebuke it, and then he wins via a gotcha moment where Sam and Bucky both somehow forget that Bucky is a super soldier (or maybe they remember and think of him as a bad person) AND that Isaiah is a super soldier.

So, in that moment, we have a begrudging, “Oh shit, Zemo might be right??” framing.

Okay, well, if Sam and Bucky can’t refute his point, maybe Karli can right? Sam and Bucky were having an off day, forgot some points, but surely Karli is gonna know enough about her own ideology to say it’s not “Supremacist.”

And I want to be clear here--I know Bucky and Sam don’t WANT to believe Zemo. I know Sam is giving Karli an out when he says “Some guy I know, NOT ME, thinks you’re a supremacist.” He’s trying to get out another answer by asking her about the serum, her army, her goals.

But he also points out she’s “killing innocent people,” even though the people she killed were starving and depriving innocent people, including children.

INSTEAD of saying “They’re not innocent because they’re killing refugees.” Karli is written to say “They’re not innocent BECAUSE THEY’RE IN MY WAY” reaffirming the idea that she thinks she’s better than them, she’s a supremacist.

Sam gets the answer he didn’t want--Zemo is right.

And Karli is allowed to defend herself more, Sam is allowed to empathize more, in between the rock and the hard place of “Zemo is right about her going too far but Karli is right in that the government is letting people die.”

So, we get, “I agree with your fight, I just can’t agree with the way you’re fighting it.” Forcing Sam to be the mouth piece for moderate ideas despite him subscribing to the idea that the military, the avengers are allowed to kill people.

And Karli isn’t ever allowed to point out the hypocrisy because he (WITH GOOD INTENTIONS) brings up her dead mom wouldn’t want her doing this, then John interrupts.

Which Karli perceives as a betrayal and drives her to become more of “an extremist.”

THE ISSUE HERE BEING: Marvel is trying to have it both ways.

Wanting to feed kids is good, violence is bad. Karli is becoming just like John, who would’ve been justified wanting revenge for Lemar, if only he didn’t do it so violently. Karli is being framed as wanting revenge, supremacy, more than she is of wanting to protect people.

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Other important context: Sam is asked if he would ever take the serum and he immediately answers no. (We can maybe presume that’s because of its roots with Isaiah but he isn’t allowed to say that.)

What maybe complicates things here is Zemo talks about eradicating them all. Sam goes, “Isn’t that how gods talk?” And says what about Bucky (they finally remember him) and blood isn’t the solution. Okay, so is... Sam against killing super soldiers AND making new ones?

What is his ideology? Why isn’t he allowed to speak more clearly? What is this all so obfuscated?

The answer is Marvel is trying to be deep, not to provide answers. It’s like those books that have an open ending but it’s clear that the writer just couldn’t think one up that tied everything together, not that they wanted you to think.

Marvel wants criticisms of government but no alternative solution because they’re all too radical.

Every one delivering a line about ideology is to be taken equally seriously until the show decides they have gone too far.

Because the worse thing you can do is not have bad ideas, but rather take a good idea too far. Like a radical.