#if you don't know Roy and Donna have canonically dated at multiple points

[youhavelessproof]

I'm not gonna all out, just full warning, but I do wanna make a couple points. (<- this was apparently a half-life. I talked a lot, but I technically didn't say everything I could've.)

1. Slade was made to be Dick's villain. like he was technically a Titans' villain, but let's be real. he was made to contrast and mirror Dick's relationship with Bruce. Deathstroke eventually just became the boogeyman for DC, but he is first and foremost there for Dick.

2. There is much less of a power dynamic in Sladick than people think there is when we're talking about the comics. Dick is younger and that can be problematic, but like. pretty sure he was an adult when they met. (19 I think. because that was how old Dick was when he originally became Nightwing.) DC keeps pushing Dick's age back, so in the current continuity who the fuck knows, but y'know.

Slade has been able to beat Dick in fights before, but mostly when Dick was younger. most their fights from, like, Nightwing '96 on either don't really have a winner or Dick wins. Slade may have won a couple more recently, I don't really know, but they're pretty evenly matched. that's kinda the point.

Slade respects Dick enough that during said Nightwing '96 run he actually tells Dick when he has a contract in Blud out of respect.

I'm not gonna show panels for everything, I just think that one is important to cite directly.

3. I'm not gonna over this on for long at all but. Renegade. Dick was not forced to be Renegade. Dick being forced to be Slade's apprentice only happened in the 2003 cartoon. never happened in the comics. Renegade was Dick's choice and he had a lot of reasons for it.

4. Slade is obsessed with Dick. has been for a long time. however that obsession is not about killing Dick. I don't know if this is a misconception, but I'm gonna put it here. not to say Slade would never kill Dick, he tried in Dark Crisis, but it's more complicated than that. again, Slade respects Dick and really respects Dick's strength. to the point of being mad when Dick does not live up to expectations. (see what I mean by mirroring Bruce in certain ways?)

in no way am I saying Dick and Slade are healthy, I think they would make each other worse (affectionate), but they aren't what a lot of people seem to think they are.

Dick is very capable of dealing with Slade, that's why Slade likes him so much. they have less of a power imbalance and more a power struggle.

anyway this is longer than I thought it would be but onto Jayroy. this isn't gonna be positive, but I'll try and be reasonable and not aggressive about it.

Roy was made directly based off of Dick. Speedy intro-ed into comics in 1941 after Robin in 1940. they still have similarities in their origins, but it was even more obvious back then. though Speedy was clearly not as beloved as Robin has he apparently disappeared for a bit. point is: while they weren't made for each other, Dick and Roy have been connected since their creation.

now, I don't think that fact in and of itself discredits Jayroy at all. ships can come from anywhere and it doesn't really matter if Dick and Roy are always going to be the best friend/rivals they are because that doesn't mean Roy and Jason can't be together too.

however.

the New 52/Rebirth/post-Flashpoint whatever continuity has not been kind to Roy. it has not been kind to a lot of characters, but I find Roy's case especially bad. (partly because he's one of my favorite characters.)

I really need to stress that Roy was not underutilized before RHATO. post-crisis Roy was extremely fleshed out and interesting and a very developed character. he was not a character that had been forgotten. yes addiction was a part of his stories, but he was so much more than that.

I don't want to suddenly turn this into a character study, but when I think of Roy I think of how interesting of a case study he is in loyalty. I think of how kind and caring he is. I think of how much he respects heroes, especially ones that have been doing longer than he has, but how that doesn't change his ability to call them out for their shit.

RHATO did not take characters that had nothing. it took Roy and Kori, characters that have had a lot of love put into their characters, and did whatever it wanted with them. that is fine for fanfic, but for it to be in a published comic by DC is frankly sad.

I don't really wanna talk about Jason's characterization here, but I do want to hit on one key point. Roy absolutely still loved Cheshire after shit she did, but there was a reason he did not stay with her. Roy does not feel good about loving her, but he cannot control his heart.

I've heard Roy and Chesh's relationship used to fight for and against Jayroy in every way but the key fact is this: even if Roy loved Jason, it would not feel good for him.

Roy is someone that loves people in spite of their flaws. he sees them clearly, but he finds it more important to focus on the good of people than the bad. not that it's black and white, but that is his general thinking.

I believe in the right circumstances, Roy would try and help Jason. would try and lead him on the right path. (if we ignore Jason's actions towards Dick (someone Roy is terrifyingly devoted to) and Mia (part of Roy's found family.)) however, I also think it would destroy him inside.

all that to say: ship whatever you want. I don't like Jayroy because of how it came about and some other things, but I think they are interesting things you could do with it. I just ask that you don't vote for it because it's the healthier option.

first of all, I've already talked about the connotations of "healthy" in a comic universe, but also it's just not. Jason would not be good for Roy and that's okay. ships don't have to be healthy to be good.

and I would also appreciate people stop erasing Dick and Roy's relationship (even if it's all platonic) but I think that's asking a bit too much. DC seems happy to erase that all away. :(

also sorry that I talked so long what the fuck.

tl;dr comic Sladick isn't healthy but it's also not what a lot of fandom seems to think it is and Jayroy started because DC decided fuck Roy's character so please look into post-crisis Roy he's a very good boy.

ship whatever you want, this is just some information and opinions. o7

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