#if you are reading this and think 'well shippers MY gay ship doesnt do that!' i guarantee you are wrong

[findafight]

Sometimes the way people talk about ships in fandom, especially queer ships they hope to be canon and/or endgame, and how there is no straight/platonic explanation for the ways characters act towards each other really emphasises that often fandom

1) does not view a friendship as a fully formed relationship that has arguments and disagreements and make ups and affection

2) cannot comprehend a deep and platonic bond that is just if not more important than romance

3) despite being vocally queer-friendly, still excludes aromantic (and asexual, to a different degree) interpretations from the queer umbrella allowed for the characters, leading to a hypocrisy that also extends to biphobia that is rampant. These are covert biases, and very rarely are they out right declared, because often they are coming from allies or queer people themselves, but one must be aware of the language used and the dog whistles those who experience or are looking out for these kinds of dismissals or exclusions would see as warning signs.

4) is unaware that every relationship is unique and there most certainly IS a platonic explanation for those actions. People react differently, they have jealousy and love and anger and affection, all of which can be present in a platonic and meaningful friendship, leading them to lash out, or touch tenderly, or cry when they argue. Love and affection are not exclusive to romance

[nocturnal-phantoms-fandoms]

C A T for the ask game please hehe 😻

Cat!! My dearest Shrutual <3333

(Im going to answer alphabetically. Also this got so long omg)

A - Ships that you currently like a lot. (They don’t have to be OTPs because not everyone has OTPs.) Friendships, pairings, threesomes, etc. are allowed.

I do have OTPs :D wolfstar and stucky (also previously: klance but im not into them as much anymore)

I even have a meme for this occasion:

other ships from the marauders fandom:

wolfstarbucks <333 wolfbucks and prongsfoot are alright too but not in the long run, I think I prefer them as a trio (everyone is there and all is well and everyone is happy. I get sad when R isnt there and im worried about S's whereabouts when he isnt there, so. Trio)

jily - i wouldnt call myself a jily shipper per se, but its also very dear to me <3333. Would choose a fic with them as a supporting ship over alternatives when reading r/s , thats for sure.

james & sirius friendship but also remus & james friendship!!

basically... sirius and remus and sometimes james an lily. in any configuration at this point

(there are other ships I like from hp, mcu and other fandoms but im not into them that much at this very moment)

C - A ship you have never liked and probably never will.

Oh boy. Do I have to choose just one?

Stony.

... Ok that wasnt that hard.

I dont like Tony, I dont care about him, I dont like their relationship we saw in the films (tho i havent read the comics so im judging just the films), Im not into enemies to lovers, there is nothing for me there. zero, zip, nada.

T - Do you have any hard and fast headcanons that you will die defending?

Thats a really hard question bc apart from fighting "mainstream" fanon with canon info i dont think im that invested about most headcanons? so, i will try. i will not elaborate tho.

if sirius was into any muggle subculture it would be punk

black brothers weren't tortured with cruciatus every other day for any minor inconvenience they caused. sirius was abused psychologically and emotionally and until the last second walburga hoped he would come back and take the role of the heir he was supposed to.

regulus wasnt forced into becoming a DE, but he did it bc he wanted to prove himself

alphard was gay and had muggle lover(s)

sirius would become a curse breaker, a social worker, an activist, a mechanic or an engineer or something like that. idk why but i dont like it when he's a healer/doctor. However I can see sirius joining the aurors with james, but i think he would resign not long after finishing training when he realises he cant fix the system from the inside. idk if james would resign tho.

if we assume that the marauders form a pack, its not remus who is the alpha, even while in wolf form

the last one im adding just bc i saw a post about it right before i started answering this ask: the full moon doesnt make remus horny. its a traumatic experience for him and he associates it with everything he fears - pain and loosing control. for a few days before the full he feels sick and weak and he hates everything and sirius has to fight tooth and nail to just get him under a blanket for a cuddle. right after the full he is exhausted and in pain. the further from the full the easier it is to get him in the mood, basically. (i feel like im the only one. at least on this one post every response was the opposite. i read just one ff with a similar thing - where its the new moon that makes werewolves horny.) i am not opposed to remus being horny right after the full tho

las one I just remembered: the hogwarts express has more than two stops. for gods sake. those kids arent travelling to London from Edinburgh just to spend the whole day on the train on the way back. (check out this map) all of the stations have platforms like 3 ⅓, 2 ⅚ and so on of course.

ask game

[luffythinker]

IM CRYING, IM GLAD YOUR OPEN TO MY SHIKANARU CAUSE EVERYBODY I TRY AND TALK TO ABOUT THIS SHIP DOESNT CARE I actually am making a story i just got to get it all together. IMA SHARE IT WITH YOU WHEN I GOT IT TOGETHER it's really just me changing some events in the story and making it where Naruto and Shikamaru end up together. My plans are to have Naruto end up with Shikamaru, I love Sai/Sakura but Ino loves Sakura and i don't understand the Ino/Sai i'm still watching the anime it's just i never finished my run so i started reading the manga back to the part im at and im at ep 145 of shippuden i think? I'm not allowing myself to finish watching it until my story is caught up to where i am. Back to what i was saying I'm thinking of making it Ino/Sakura/Sai but it's more of "This is my girlfriend Sakura and her boyfriend Sai" my reasoning for this is when Ino witnessed Sasuke pull that guys arms out the socket as a kid it traumatized her, made her scared of him and Sai apparently looks like Sasuke, they were saying he looked like Sasuke a little bit in the anime if i remember correctly. it just creeps her out. I don't think Ino really ever liked Sasuke she just liked him cause that's what was cool when she was a kid so the whole rivalry with Sakura was just built on that idea. I was rewatching some scenes and i think, ok i gotta back track a little bit. I headcanon Ino's famliy is the most chill with same-sex stuff, so like if their daughter was gay they wouldn't mind. Ino puts this thinking in Sakura's head but Sakura's not as understanding as a kid and thinking it's weird cause different households (Not saying her parents were homophobic, it's just never been brought up to her before) Ino finally realizes she's in love with Sakura after she comes to her rescue when he hair gets cut that's the whole of what i wanted to say. So from that point on Ino likes Sakura, Sakura still has her feelings for Sasuke and Naruto's crush on Sakura has gone. I noticed he still asked her on dates but ultimately before and after Sasuke leaves it really hits Naruto that Sakura holds something special to Sasuke. Tsunade even notices it when she watches him leave the room to give them a moment after she heals him, Naruto walks out the room and says he wants her to look at Lee but his body language said "Oh im not needed here" and his feelings looked a little hurt. Another thing Neji developing a crush on Shikamaru before and during the timeskip because those two are the smartest in the group meaning they must work together alot even if they weren't in the same squad, Chunin Neji and Chunin Shikamaru being paired up alot is something i look at with shining eyes. But Neji, he notices Shikamaru's crush on Naruto so backs off, this leads him to back to Lee cause i'm a huge Neji/Lee shipper as well. Now, i've been reading this fic i'll include it here (Love Is A Battlefield by MadamZenobia on AO3) my endgame ships are

Shikamaru/Naruto

Ino/Sakura/Sai

Sasuke/Suigetsu

Kiba/Shino

Lee/Neji

As for Hinata i'm not throwing her away, just changing her motifs a little i guess? She has a crush on Naruto yes, after him being away for so long she has time to work on herself and find herself more. She does like him but it isn't what's going to make her happy. It isn't because i don't like Naruto/Hinata it's cute it's alright but it doesn't make sense even if i haven't seen the movies or episodes that show it. I feel like Hinata needs to do some self reflecting. Naruto is a huge inspiration to her, she's watched him train, become who he is but those two with a family together isn't something i can see happening even if it canonly happened, when i first got into this i didn't see it coming. So in my story Hinata is happy living her best life being single, watching her friends be happy together has brought her so much peace, even watching Naruto be happy with Shikamaru. (I wanna plan a talk she has with Shikamaru about his crush on Naruto and them discussing their feelings about Naruto so Shikamaru doesn't feel like he just took Naruto from her since from his point of view it looks like she liked him first but Shikamaru's had a crush on Naruto since he meet him, Shikamaru met Naruto first. ) I also have an idea of Hinata just wanting to be a single mother in Boruto, and Naruto/Shikamaru adopting and teaching a orphan both their Jutsu's turbsdfuvbhrsu IT'LL BE SO CUTE

i'm not finished with my story im writing but i can give you my fic i'm rewriting, the original version it's Shikamaru and Naruto what a troublesome love story by ZerosWaifu (I don't have a tumblr im using my friend's account they said it's fine so don't worry )

THIS ONE IS SO LONG IM SORRY

I'm so glad you're into shikanaru as well, I have never really found someone to talk to about them!! Please do share your story when it's done, I would love to read it <3

I feel pretty neutral about Sai/Ino, not because I think they are madly in love or anything but in Boruto I like the dynamic I saw of them, plus inojin is my favorite kid so I'm biased here… But I'm also super down for a Sai/Sakura/Ino, with mostly Sakura being the bridge between them!!!

For me, Ino would be a lesbian who had to deal with a lot of compulsory heterosexuality, so she forced herself to have a crush on Sasuke when they were kids because that's just what girls are supposed to do, but after a small breakdown after a fight with sakura she talks to her parents and surprisingly it's them that tell her that she might have a crush on her and they tell her that it's okay if she feels that way and that there is nothing wrong with her.

I think it's pretty accurate that Sakura would be a little reluctant to accept that, but eventually, she does understand that she's bisexual and things become a little easier for her to figure out what she wants and who she wants to be! [Discovering non-monogamy/polyamory is a whole other can of worms so I'm not gonna get into that here unless you want me to!!]

I'M SO GLAD YOU BROUGHT UP NEJI AND SHIKAMARU. Okay I know they're not your main pairing but a few years ago I read a fic of them that to this day has a place in my brain, I will leave linked it here if you're interested

But yes, for our shikanaru endgame purpose, Neji is very perceptive so he kind of always knew he never really had a chance here, he backs off, and eventually, his feelings for someone else grow which is how we get to neji/lee!!

Also thank you for the fic rec, I'll try to give it a read soon <3 Sasuke and suigetsu is such an interesting ship, I never got into them fully but their dynamic is so fun!

I like your take on Hinata, for me, i ship her with Kiba, he was so in love with her it's crazy, I don't know if you noticed the signs but they would have so much potential, honestly a throuple with shino would work too. But I also really like your take on her talking it out with shikamaru and realizing that her feelings for Naruto lean more toward admiration than actual romantic love, would love for her to have a happy life, would also really adore seeing her become the head of the Hyuuga clan and start making the changes Naruto promised Neji he would do it (and he never actually did it)!!

I think that's all i have for today?? do hmu whenever you want cause i'm super happy to explore more about naruto <33

[transsexualhamlet]

for the ship ask thing uhhh mikayuu maybe and also i'm curious about your opinion on soukoku considering that it's probably the most popular ship in the fandom and the fact that you ship fyozai

also have a good day

oooooh i will do both soukoku and mikayuu >:)

putting this under a cut because it's LONG and rather controversial

Ok well Mikayuu first.

It has been a Hot Second since I've rlly been in the ons fandom, and I've changed a lot since then, I think?

I've always been a Mikayuu lover, they're just my og queers, the ship I've had for the longest that I was really in the fandom for and I hold them gently

However now that I've yknow, had Two Years more to distance myself and the way I looked at it when I was a kid I do realize I really like it as a QPR more than a normal romantic/sexual ship, where both Mika and Yuu are on the aro and ace spectrums.

The last time I was in the fandom I wasn't yet out as aroacespec and I wasn't really aware of the whole deal surrounding those things but I think I like it even more now that I can recognize those things in him.

Mika is canonically acespec, I think, I think mostly because of trauma- the whole "vampires don't feel sexual desires" thing is vague and weird and I, don't really understand what they're trying to get at there other than trying to make excuses for Ferid being Weird (which, 100 percent doesn't excuse him lol, if anything it incriminates him More)

And I think that I'm just gonna go ahead and autism diagnose both Mika and Yuu, Yuu has no fUCKING CLUE what the difference between platonic, familial, and romantic love is and he doesn't care to try to figure it out. He knows he loves his friends and he knows he loves Mika and it is both the same and different and they are all family to him. That's like, mood Yuu. I don't think he really cares if it is romantic or platonic and I think he would be very affectionate with everyone indiscriminately tbh so it is difficult to like, really see that.

God, there's always been this huge fight over whether mikayuu is familial platonic romantic etc and the answer is IT DOESNT FUCKING MATTER because YUU DOESNT HAVE A FUCKING CLUE and no amount of affection/no Feelings or words are really are able to determine that, it's only how they define it I suppose.

Anyway I love them and they are my baby queers and they love each other and that's all that is important :)))

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And, part two! Soukoku. So. You asked for my brutal opinion. I am Sorry.

I have mixed feelings on soukoku ngl.

Now don't think that my fyozai shipping at all gets in the way of soukoku, I'm a huge multishipper, I've written soukoku fic, obviously there is no fucking universe where chuuya and dazai do not have an INTENSE romantic and sexual history. They're obviously gay. They obviously fuck. I don't know what idiot could think they haven't had gay sex

But yknow. Things are more complicated than that.

I think they were definitely together while Dazai was in the mafia, there's no doubt about that, and I think they to some extent enjoyed each other's company and probably did dumb gay teenager things.

But god, do I think they're together now or could ever really work it out to be a good couple long term?

Hmmmm Maybe. I have mixed feelings. I'm not sure. I don't think they're sure either, they definitely have unresolved beef and they definitely have one night stands every so often, but could I ever see them being in a stable relationship? Actually bettering each other in any way? I just don't really think so.

I kind of hate most of the fandom's takes on soukoku, and I don't think there's anything wrong with people who do ship it or want them to be happy together, you do you man. I don't like people who harrass soukoku shippers like, who spends their time doing that. Unless they're the Weird Kind, I don't give a shit.

But ever since I read stormbringer I kind of lost my taste for soukoku, esp past dark era. I just think Chuuya can and should do better SHDGHHSIDGHO

They definitely have a lot of interesting history and dynamics to interpret and look through, and I love looking at them in dazai's PM years and looking at their relationship through a magnifying glass, but what I see when I look at them is a fundamentally bad, codependent, unhealthy relationship.

SO basically what im trying to say is do i think they are in a relationship? Yes before he left, Sometimes after he left. They never really broke up I don't think. Do I think it's a GOOD relationship? No the fuck I do not.

And I'm not one of those fuckwads who insists one of them is to blame for everything, no they're both equally shitty to each other and they're just a fundamentally bad combination that hurt each other.

They can't communicate, they encourage each other to make bad decisions, they purposefully emotionally and physically harm each other, they certainly do care about each other and have attachments to each other but they also hate each other's fucking guts and neither of them want to or have the emotional capacity to work that out.

The best thing they can do for their mental health is to stay the fuck away from each other for now, at least until the both of them are older, less mentally ill, and more emotionally mature. I'm putting their relationship on the top shelf and wagging my finger at them because they proved they can't handle it even after four years

Both of them are like. Honestly pretty responsible and mature people when not around each other. Like, Chuuya is smart, respectable, strong, and would be a good mentor/parent. (Dazai wouldn't. But he's better than he would be if he was around chuuya often.) I'm not gonna lie I don't understand people who see them as getting married or having kids! I feel so sorry for those kids! Soukoku custody battle when! Chuuya took the fucking kids!

So man, I don't care if you do want them to make up and be happy but i think a lot of people just don't realize that canonically they Are Not in a great place and they are not just a Cool Violent Couple TM. I feel that their relationship is really interesting and important but it's not something I really feel needs to continue for them to be happy, although eventually it possibly could. Chuuya could do better. Dazai has plenty of options that maybe aren't like. Better people but are certainly better suited to him. I don't know, I just. It's complicated.

ANYWAY THANK YOU FOR THE ASK AND I AM SO SORRY THIS IS SO LONG

[nancylou444]

I tried to be nice

Replies to this post:

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Became this:

THEM:  hi! thanks for the answers I really appreciate the discussion. normally if someone ships something I don’t like or something like that, I’ll just leave them alone but.. just to be clear I completely respect all of your opinions, even agree with some of them, even if we might disagree on the incest and Castiel haha. So I don’t mean any disrespect with this at all, please let me know if I’m out of line though!  

 But... I saw some things you said, and they come across to me in a way that I don’t think you intended? I feel really awkward sending this haha, you’re very nice and I don’t think you said anything on purpose, but I just.. wanted to let you know that some of the things regarding your opinion on certain characters come across not very well? I don’t think it’s intentional or anything, and I don’t mean to call you out at all which is why I didn’t want to point it out in the replies y’know?  

 Don’t get me wrong though, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with not liking castiel or destiel. I’ve been watching the show for a while with my dad, and he isn’t a huge fan either, I don’t think that’s a problem :) 

I’d continue without waiting for a response but I don’t want to say something you’ve already been told, or continue without knowing if I’ve said something out of line already 😅

ME:  I'm kind of distracted dealing with my Mom's rehab center. But you can keep going.

THEM: Alright! I’ve tried rephrasing this a million times but I don’t know how to make it seem not antagonistic. I promise I don’t mean that you’re doing it intentionally, it’s just, uh a lot of your criticism of spn feels like it could be read as homophobic? Again I don’t think YOU are I just wanted you to know it kind of reads that way!

That sounded so confrontational. I really don’t mean it that way 😭

ME: HOMOPHOBIC? Really? A lot of the 'proof' your fellow shippers use border on stereotypes but you think I'M homophobic? Considering my top two ships are Wincest and Malec. Yeah, sounds confrontational.

THEM:  I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it like that. I guess there’s no other way to say it, but I understand why you feel accused. What do you mean by proof..?

Also I don’t really think having gay ships means you can’t be homophobic. *I* used to be homophobic years ago, and I’m a gay person!

ME:  How old are you? https://nancylou444.tumblr.com/post/154098904136/a-guide-to-dean-winchesters-imaginary-bisexuality

THEM:  yeah this is starting to get frustrating. I’m gonna be real with you, why does it matter if people think dean is bisexual? like, bottom line, that is my question for you

and your answer will determine if your veracity is homophobic. why does it matter that some people think dean is bisexual. not the fans or actors or writers or anything. why does it matter that some viewers will watch, and they will think dean is bisexual?

ME:  My problem isn't that some people think he is bi IN FANON, my problem is that they want CONFIRMATION OF A FANON SHIP. And that some people DENY how the show ended. These same people think that fake weddings are more canon than the FINAL EPISODE.

THEM:  I get what you mean, but how is it a fanon ship when it’s confirmed romantic from one side, and interpretable as mutually reciprocated in Latin America? (I’m going to disregard the bit about the wedding, because I’m a firm believer in Neil Gaiman variety death of the author. Also that’s just people having fun with fanon, who cares?)

ME:  Confirmed romantic?By whom MISHA, who wanted to sell necklaces? Have you never said 'i love you' to a FRIEND or FAMILY member? The dub is not canon, so don't even try using that as proof. Death of the author is just another way of saying MY VIEW OF THE SHOW IS SUPERIOR TO HOW THE CREATOR WANTS TO SEE IT. Jensen has said many times that the ship isn't canon and that Dean is straight. But it's better to believe what Misha says because he agrees with you. You think somebody is bi because of how they sit or the color clothes they wear? That would make YOU homophobe.

THEM:  LOL You know what? I change my answer. I looked through your blog and you ACTIVELY and viscously hate Cas, Charlie, Claire, Kaia and the implication that Jack may not be straight. You’ve said Cas coming out as gay and in love with dean makes the rest of his actions predatory, compared him to a teenage girl, called him creepy, and openly rejoiced in your idea that dean looked ‘disgusted with him’. You said that Claire is awful, that Kaia is a wooden plank, that they ‘shoved them together’ for ‘woke points’ and said that Jody saying Claire was IN LOVE WITH Kaia ‘doesnt count’ and called it ‘lip service’. And it doesn’t end there! After all this, you said that you preferred the old better s4 Claire. Is it because she was ostensibly straight? Are you uncomfortable with queer women? And then you have the audacity to use these characters (Claire and Kaia and Charlie) as reasons to epicly own the Hellers and claim they already have represention. You are a completely disingenuous bitch and I don’t care to be nice to you anymore! I don’t feel AT ALL charitable toward you anymore, and I don’t care if you have gay ships. Gay people aren’t here for you to fetishize! You CONSTANTLY mock and ridicule jokes made by queer people regarding deans bisexuality or Cas being gay or any number of things. You constantly reaffirm that Dean is straight and call people who think otherwise delusional and disgusting, while you think dean is in romantic sexual love with his male sibling. You are openly hostile to the idea of non-binary jack and were pissed that Alcal endorsed that. You devalue Jack’s value and relationship to Cas who is, textually, his father figure. I have NO reason not to think that you are homophobic. I don’t care anymore! You’re a huge bitch and, judging by your prior responses and posts, a genuine dialogue regarding queerness in spn is impossible. You regard any instance of canonically queer moments ‘lip service’ and so regard it. You actively hate every canonically gay character and degrade them using traditionally homophobic tropes and stereotypes.

Feel free to explain how you aren’t homophobic. I’m so sorry if I got the wrong impression.

ME: Wow I see your true colors have come out HELLER.

THEM:  Idc if you think I’m mean. Go ahead and make a post about me lol, have fun with it. Give me a moment to respond to your paragraph it’s... a lot to dissect.

I’ll touch on your comments about the dub and the Spanish language in a moment. First though

I ’m gonna be real with you, I don’t think you know what death of the author is. Neil Gaiman’s variety of the dead author principal is that once canon ends, the story belongs to those that consume and engage with it. That’s... also literally the theme of supernaturals final season. Anyway I really recommend you read up on death of the author and Neil Gaiman’s takes on fanon. It’s a fun way to consume your media, and in the end that’s what I’m here for.

I don’t care what Misha says, and I don’t care what Jensen says! I think they are both queer because I have eyes and watched the show. I think it’s a lovely narrative that is supported by canon, and it’s fine if you disagree with that

On your last sentence there... lol. It’s a common joke in queer circles that gays can’t sit properly, specifically bisexuals. Same thing with the clothing, it’s a SUPER common joke for example that lesbians wear flannel. Maybe you need to go outside and talk to some normal, non-incest shipping queer people. But what do I know!

And finally... ‘the Spanish dub isnt canon’

I am literally cuban. My first language is SPANISH. my entire household speaks Spanish, and my family past 1st cousins don’t speak any English. My Boricua cousins have watched supernatural in full for years, and they watch it in Spanish. Do you think America is the center of the universe? Do you think our media is somehow less than yours, that our interpretations of English language media isn’t valid? What, do you think we are idiots who don’t know how to analyze literature and media? Do you think the people who work at Telemundo, people employed as dubbers and translators, you think they do a worse job than the American crew?

Why, because they aren’t American or don’t speak English? ‘Te amo’ said to a non family member is, in 99% of any instance, ROMANTIC. it’s something you say to your spouse in serious situations like weddings!! Even MARRIED people don’t normally say te amo, everyone uses te quiero unless it is very serious or romantic in context.

All of my family who are Spanish language, they heard dean say ‘y a yo ti, cas’ and think that they were in romantic love. Sorry dude! The United States might be the center of your universe, but Latin America is HUGE. Spanish is one of the most spoken languages in the WORLD. In fact, more people speak Spanish than English. Sorry that you seem to hate gay characters SO MUCH you have to say an entire language somehow isn’t valid to consume media in!

ME: 

Obviously this heller is batshit crazy. 

Some of those things she thinks I said just show she has no idea how to follow a tumblr thread. 

You are a completely disingenuous bitch and I don’t care to be nice to you anymore! I don’t feel AT ALL charitable toward you anymore, and I don’t care if you have gay ships. Gay people aren’t here for you to fetishize! You CONSTANTLY mock and ridicule jokes made by queer people regarding deans bisexuality or Cas being gay or any number of things. You constantly reaffirm that Dean is straight and call people who think otherwise delusional and disgusting, while you think dean is in romantic sexual love with his male sibling.

Wow. 

I have NO reason not to think that you are homophobic. I don’t care anymore! You’re a huge bitch and, judging by your prior responses and posts, a genuine dialogue regarding queerness in spn is impossible. You regard any instance of canonically queer moments ‘lip service’ and so regard it. You actively hate every canonically gay character and degrade them using traditionally homophobic tropes and stereotypes.

Where have I hated canon gay characters and degraded them using tropes and stereotypes? The bitch has me confused with HER FELLOW SHIPPERS. 

Gotta love how she is defending the Spanish dub. Hit a nerve did I? 

It’s a common joke in queer circles that gays can’t sit properly, specifically bisexuals. Same thing with the clothing, it’s a SUPER common joke for example that lesbians wear flannel. Maybe you need to go outside and talk to some normal, non-incest shipping queer people.

Now who is using stereotypes? 

[theunconcernedembalmer]

what’s the issue with elisop? is it just bc you hc aesop as ace? im so concerned by seeing ppl adamantly opposed to mlm/wlw ships but im also genuinely curious about why you dislike it and other lgbt ships so much lol

hmm. that is a strong accusation, n i find it just a bit odd. are you new here? or perhaps you are taking personal offense at my dislike towards a favourite ship of yours and using the lgbt argument as moral high ground?

whatever the case may be, i thank you for asking. if u r truly looking for an answer, its below the cut n it is very very long. mind u these are all my personal opinions n i am in no way policing how others enjoy ships. just in case this wasnt clear; i dont wish to start discourse on this blog, especially since my takes are probably... unpopular.

firstly i would like to address the “disliking lgbt ships” bit, because this has very strong implications in itself. i have nothing against lgbt ships. i enjoy them, even. if the two characters have chemistry between each other, i ship it. however, the moment characterization is broken for the sake of romance, i lose interest. this is generally my stance on ships in general, n this applies for both straight n lgbt ships. 

the ships themselves are fine. however, i do have issues with the ship dynamics, so ill let u in on that.

i want to touch on mlm ships in particular; i believe u are familiar with the top/bottom dynamic that is rampant in these kinds of ships? (i wont deny that this dynamic can be found in other types of ships, but for arguments sake i will be focusing on gay ships because i feel that this occurs more commonly here) its such a popular dynamic that is prone to stripping the personality from one if not both characters, only for them to be reduced to being dominant/submissive. for a character to be pigeonholed into a stereotypical category based on... preferred sexual positions? its just downright insulting, never mind the larger more problematic implications of it. top/bottom is not indicative of someones personality, by the way. flattening multi dimensional characters into these stereotypes is so so so insulting.

unfortunately this is The Most Popular portrayal of just about any gay ship around. ive seen it being used everywhere in so many fandoms n it just about becomes apparent to me that ppl come to stories looking for a Ship. not the stories, nor the characters, just a ship. while id like to say theres nothing wrong with that, keep in mind not everyone is just looking for 2 characters that look pretty next to each other. if i ship something, i see interesting n meaningful interactions between 2 characters, which is so often not the case once u bring in the top/bottom dynamic. why is it so popular? because somehow this is what ppl like from a gay ship n hence it sells. ppl want the drama, characterizations be damned. ppl want to see the big kiss that happens in the end, n maybe the sexy parts that come after. characterizations be damned.

so u can say im a little wary of gay ships when they cross my feed. hell, as a joseph aesop shipper i see this trope everywhere n im pretty disappointed as well. small tangent but i feel like this is the reason why zh0ngli n ch1lde is so popular in g3nshin. i try to see the appeal, i really do, but after a long while of analyzing their respective characters i dont think they have as much chemistry as ppl think they do. dont even get me started on how incredibly ooc they make either of these very interesting n unique characters in ship portrayals. all because of the top/bottom dynamic that ppl want to see. i say this for that particular ship, but this is pretty much the case for a lot of ships out there, n the latter part is painfully true even when the 2 characters do have potential between each other. ill say it again im disgusted by the blatant disrespect to the characterizations if all ppl ever want is 2 pretty puppets to mush lips together. cos thats what theyre essentially reduced to this way.

n its so obvious to see when an artist subscribes to this rhetoric, because u can so clearly see it in the way they draw their characters. the “top” generally has sharper features to go with their “dominating personality”, while the “bottom” has disturbingly softer, feminine, dare i say sometimes child like features “to submit”. n thats where the uwu soft gay trope comes from, i believe. which, in case u still dont know, i hate with a burning passion.

so again for ppl with impaired reading comprehension, im fine with ships, including lgbt ones, but the moment u break characterization for the sake of the ship, im not that okay with it. u want to do it for a short crack comic? fine. but if thats the only way ur portraying the 2 characters then im immediately wary of ur content. ill still look at it cos usually the art is really good, but im very very wary. so im not “adamantly opposed”, just very critical of how the ships are being portrayed. if other ppl want to enjoy their ships like that, sure. just dont expect me to join in on something i dont agree on.

.

now id like to address not shipping “because i hc aesop as ace”. for ppl who are new to the blog (hello there), im an ace in a romantic relationship, so thats definitely not the reason i dont ship elisop. its more of being in a relationship has largely shaped my views towards romance as a whole. even before i met my boyfriend, i hated the romance genre in stories n media. most of it comes off as incredibly forced, especially those love triangles they seem to love putting into teen novels. thats one reason why i stopped reading when i was younger, but i digress.

did i partake in shipping when i was younger? i did. for a gay ship too (if anyone really wants to know, its kurotsukki from haikyuu. at least this was one that i can remember, i was mostly working on my 20 odd ocs for the longest time). i also used to write little short romance ficlets that i never posted anywhere cos i hated (n still do hate) my writing. but writing romance when u dont have experience was really just a way of projecting n probably a way of coping for myself, not that i knew at that time. but after i actually started a relationship with my boyfriend (whom i love n cherish a lot thank u very much), i began to see how much all these have skewed my views towards romance n have actually done some harm to our relationship. the bullshit that the general media feeds u constantly doesnt help in the slightest either.

quick topic shift to elisop in particular (about time, right?). i already stated that i only ship characters if i sense chemistry between the two personalities, n if u have seen the part where i dont ship elisop then u must have seen how agonized i am over not being able to have a concrete personality for eli. that is the main problem i have with elisop: eli does not feel like a solid character to me. n that is a huge problem, because if he doesnt have any defining characteristics besides being mild n nice, then he can be whoever i want him to be. (i have done this in my exorcist comics, i will admit this. n the fact that i can just do that... it really does not sit well with me personally.)

n that is dangerous.

back to young me doing lil ship things. i think its also pretty safe to say when u really do ship 2 characters, chances are u kinda really relate very very hard to at least one of them. that very quickly can turn into projecting, n shipping therefore is not “exploring the relationship between 2 characters” n it becomes “my preferred dating simulator 101″. of course this isnt always the case, but at least it was for me, n subconsciously it might be for lots of ppl too. n since this is ur mental playground, u call the shots, n there is no consequences if u slightly (or even entirely) alter one or both personalities to fit ur desired narrative. n u wouldnt even notice or know, cos ur blind to ur own biasness.

we bring our perceived notions into real life, im sure u know that. so when ur partner does not become that perfect knight in shining armour, or when they get upset at things that u do (which is a very normal thing by the way), n u think (very subconsciously), That isnt what my otp would do, something is wrong here (nothing is wrong, actually its just ur skewed perception of a stable romantic relationship). why wouldnt ur otp do this? because u are both halves of ur otps, there is no hidden secrets between them (apart from the pining part but thats irrelevant), n again they have been altered to fit ur preferred narrative. 

a real relationship requires a lot of communication between parties, because newsflash, liking someone doesnt mean that u have to like every single thing they do, they will make mistakes n it will hurt u, n guess what, the reverse is also true. if u do go with absoutely anything that they would do with 0 objections whatsoever, ur not crushing on someone, ur idolizing them, n that power imbalance is detrimental to a relationship. these things are not obvious to ppl, especially when the whole climate is hell bent on getting into romantic relationships by a certain age or some bullshit. communication is key n is pretty much the only way to solve relationship issues, because the other person has a lot that u r not seeing n vice versa. as similar as 2 ppl can be, i doubt u can have 100% the same thoughts on all things. i dont make the rules.

so in ur mental playground u focus on the fluffy parts, maybe there is communication, but rarely is there any meaningful conflict. thats unrealistic, n if u bring that mindset to an actual relationship, thats not going to end well. i say meaningful conflict, because yes, generally u shouldnt have conflicts with ur significant other. but inevitably when ur with each other for long enough, u will realize that there are habits that u must change in order to be with the other person. habits that are harmful to the other person directly, or harmful habits towards yourself that indirectly harm the other person. these are meaningful in a sense that if left alone, it will manifest into larger problems that will harm u, the other person n the relationship as a whole. its meaningful to the relationship.

all these is made even worse if ur neurodivergent. maladaptive coping practices, self sabotaging behaviours, inherent disabilities. all these must be adjusted n addressed. im so incredibly thankful for my boyfriend for being incredibly patient with me when working all these out, n it has not been easy for me to work on myself n all my problems, n im still not done working on them. this aspect is often not explored in romance in general (or properly), n there is a very good chance i would have still been stuck in the unhealthy mindset of “this isnt like my otp, maybe we’re not meant to be”. because loving someone is a choice. no one is made for each other, it is a conscious choice made between 2 ppl to make things work. this is how arranged marriages work, i am told, n i do see the appeal, not that it actually does appeal to me culturally.

special mention to the kurotsukki ship, cos from there i found a very, very good fic that explored their relationship before n after getting together, n it actually showed aspects of this problem in the incredibly slow burn of (at that time) 20+ chapters. it was just one fic (n a very good one at that, i believe it was called Leviticus), but it had a lesson i never thought i needed to learn, n learn it i did, with a lot of help from my dear. 

this is also probably the reason why i dont really want to delve too much into romance now. i know its a lot of work, n everything (mostly) that the media feeds u is really false advertising, but ppl eat that shit up n so it remains one of the most popular genres to date. im just very wary that if i do start on a romantic story, i want to be able to show it in a way like that fic did, the truths of relationships, because i dont want to make something that sells, i want to make something that meaningful to me, if a little indulgent. n that also includes being very careful in how the respective characterizations will change in a relationship. almost too careful now that i think about it, but its not something that i mind. i was never one for romance from the start, n now im very careful about shipping because of what happened to me persoanlly.

okay enough about me, lets talk about aesop. in any au u put the character in, the essence of the character must remain despite the change in environment. so lets say we have ur typical modern au. dead mom, check. shitty mentor doing illegal stuff? also check. autistic boy with social anxiety? we’re good to go. all these have implications on aesop as a character, n while ppl are aware of this, again the way they go about portraying it can go, in my personal opinion, very wrong. ppl who immediately woobify aesop completely because he has autism annoy me. ppl who reduce him to uwu soft boi cos he has social anxiety do not know how the disorder really works n as someone who has that i hate it to the core. ppl who do all these for the sake of ship have lost my respect. its insulting.

remember the top/bottom dynamic? not that elisop is completely free from that (even if i dont know much about eli, to put him in either one of those stereotypes feels very insulting to his character. i wont even say anything about doing it to aesop its so upsetting), but its not entirely made up of either. but now i want to introduce another trope i am very wary of, which is “i can fix him”. im sure u guys have seen the meme going around poking fun at this trope (for those who havent, its along the lines of “u can fix him? well i can be his worst nightmare”) n no doubt yall would have seen it n gotten sick of it in some forced hetero romantic bullshit. we have one damsel in distress with a saviour that solves all their problems just by existing n being romo with each other.

remember “my preferred dating simulator 101″? this is not mutually exclusive n from my point of view this is dangerously close to this trope. lets be real, if it was actually a thing that all ur deep rooted trauma magically disappears if someone were to waltz into ur life, we would want it. definitely. no painfully dissecting ur own problems n constantly facing them head on. real life states that this is not the case, but it will not stop us from dreaming. n so this trope is born n lives n will go on.

(finally) pulling aesop n eli into this, at least in my mind, u have one severely traumatized boy with lots of issues n u have this. nice mild guy who can be anything u want him to be. i hope u can see where im going with this, n thats the direction i see some elisop heading towards (i dont read a lot of elisop to be fair). if u came from my eli character talk, i mentioned that it is incredibly one sided. this is exactly what im talking about.

putting it all together in case u havent already, aesop is the damsel in distress, whose problems magically disappear because of elis godly kindness n little to no work on improving himself, n they lived happily n gayly ever after.

can u tell how much that does not appeal to me. 

never mind the butchering of character that inevitably happens somewhere somehow, the unrealistically perfect themes n implications of this trope makes me so viscerally uncomfortable. this is, of course, due to personal reasons, n i definitely see the appeal of this dynamic because i would probably have been interested in this once upon a time as well. but as i am now, with everything i have explained up there n everything i have been through, i would politely rather not.

n its difficult to think of another dynamic, because of how little i know about eli apart from him being this saint, which easily makes him a candidate for being aesops trauma panacea. never mind aesop rarely, if ever, does anything for eli as a character in return, n its so damaging to buy into this rhetoric, where a person like this who would solve all ur issues no strings attached exists somewhere in the world. they really dont. a relationship has to be mutually benefitting, or it will be draining n disastrous. maybe u say, Oh its nice to imagine it once in a while. n yeah, i agree, except once in a while is a little difficult to keep track of n that is sort of what happened to me. id rather stay as far away as possible from this kind of unrealistic fantasy, i just got this shit sorted out with myself n my boyfriend.

i have some other reasons, but theyre more personally problematic, so i wont go into them here. but this is mostly n generally why i do not ship elisop romantically. if u do, u do u, and have fun, but again dont expect me to join u. thank u for coming to my ted talk, this took a lot longer than expected.

[seerofmike]

i feel like a huge portion of kpop fans are gay fetishists attracted to the idea of quote unquote feminine men and thats why theres so much bullshit

YES okay. okay let me rant for a minute. let me preface this by saying i am NOT a kpop shipper at ALL. this is going to be long so i’ll put it under a’ ‘read more’ because i’ve been holding it in for TWO FUCKING YEARS BABY!

being mlm in boygroup kpop fandom is literally so exhausting. 99% of the people who ship real life human men from boygroups are fetishists and i will tell u why

obviously we all know of a ship in a fandom where the characters' personalities are twisted to fit the heteronormative view of "top" and "bottom" --one character is hypermasculine (top) and the other one is feminine (bottom). there are typical traits associated with both. the ‘top’ is scary or mean or angry or serious while the ‘bottom’ is emotional or bubbly or shy. while this is egregious, at least its fictional characters. their personalities can be simplified or exaggerated and it doesnt cause any real life harm.

im going to define what i think of as a fetishist: a non-mlm person who overly sexualizes gay men/men they think are gay/gay ships, and forces them into heteronormative roles for their own pleasure. its not even limited to cishet women. plenty of non-mlm lgbt people do this too and its like disheartening. so anyways

enter the kpop fandom

i may be incredibly biased here because one of the most affected members [of bts] is my favorite kpop boy, but oh god is the ‘personality change/simplification’ thing AWFUL here. i do not go out of my way to find fanart or see fanfic threads, but being in the bts fandom, u will inevitably see it and i REALLY wish i didnt

so anyways. my favorite boy ever is hoseok. he is sweet and hardworking and very passionate about dance and he can be serious when needed, but ultimately he tries to be very lighthearted and will consistently laugh or make jokes or do something funny when the other members feel uncomfortable or awkward (mostly during english-speaking interviews). he kisses the members on the cheek a lot/hugs them a lot/cuddles them a lot [this is important for later okay]

of course, theres a lot more to him because he is a multi-faceted real life human being, and i don’t know him personally, but that’s a general idea of what he’s like, okay?

SHIPPERS will have you think differently. some video got popular on youtube ""proving"" that hoseok is a sadist (which is just clips of him jokingly playfighting with the younger members), and the video depicts him as secretly mean and serious, and shippers will use that to say "hoseok is a total top!" and then most fanart or imagines or fanfic threads you see are top!hoseok, using this imagined 'hoseok is a sadistic dom' narrative to fuel their fiction, because SOMEONE has to be the top, so they twist him into this hypermasculine mean person (and probably feminize the 'bottom' of their ship but more on that later)

EXCEPT it is not just fiction. this narrative bleeds into REAL LIFE. you have new armys who dont know anything about the shipping scene, and yet somehow the narrative of hoseok being a secretly mean, sadistic person has already made its way into them. in real life, hoseok likes rainbows and wearing nail stickers and putting glitter in his hair. yet people in the fandom will say shit like "hoseok hates femininity" "hoseok would never wear [thing] because he's a dom"

sometimes on twitter you have ppl like me who say uh actually you guys are really weird and this is fetishy and in real life hoseok is very nice and not sadistic at all, you will UNDOUBTEDLY get comments like "omg hoseok isnt cute/nice when will yall learn he’s secretly like [x] and [x]". you could post a video of hoseok with a puppy titled "wow cute" and u will get like 2 clowns in ur comments going 'hoseok isnt CUTE hes a sadist’ . i wish i was joking but i am not. they will do this for EVERY action hoseok does. he cannot blink without people twisting it into a sexual thing

[also, side note: its funny that, since hoseok is one of the least popular members and therefore one of the least shipped members, he is often the odd man out among pairings, and is assigned 'the straight one' by default, and 9 times out of 10 people who assign him 'the straight one' do all this 'dom daddy hoseok' shit.

which just goes to show that this is indeed a matter of heteronormativity.]

so anyways arguably the most popular ship with hoseok is with yoongi, sope. this absolutely happens to other ships probably but im just using them as an example because i see it the most, being a hobi stan

yoongi is very calm and thoughtful and kind and sometimes appears to be cold/having a bad attitude but its just because of the way he speaks, which is very bluntly. again hes a multi faceted real human and i do not know him personally but thats generally what hes like.

god the fandom. treats him SO BAD. so horribly. he's shorter than hoseok. he's shorter than hoseok and people will exaggerate that literal 1 inch height difference so bad and people will turn his whole personality into shy and blushy and In Love With Hoseok, so in love with hoseok that ‘he gets sad’ when hoseok doesn’t kiss him/hug him/or whatever and IT BLEEDS INTO REAL LIFE.

ANY time hoseok or yoongi do ANYTHING together at ALL, people will ALWAYS push the narrative that hoseok, being the mean sadist he is, is 'hurting' yoongi for not returning his undying love or whatever. hoseok did a vlive where he made bracelets for all the members and he considered putting a cat charm on yoongi's but ultimately decided not to because he was having difficulty and oh my GOD sope stans twisted it into 'hoseok HATES yoongi, yoongi would have been so happy, he would have worn that all the time, hoseok isnt affectionate he hates being close with other people after all :(' which is LITERALLY not true because hoseok gives all his homies good night kisses but okay! whatever fits your narrative!

PEOPLE ACTUALLY HATE HOSEOK BECAUSE OF THIS. BECAUSE OF A SHIP. BECAUSE OF THE MANUFACTURED NARRATIVE PUSHED ONTO HIM BY FETISHISTS SO HE COULD FIT INTO THEIR HETERONORMATIVE ‘TOP’ ROLE. not to be all wahh wahh hoseok is one of the least popular members BUT THIS IS LITERALLY A CONTRIBUTING FACTOR.

everyone """headcanons""" hoseok to be a top so they will make him a MEAN HYPERMASCULINE person. everyone """headcanons""" yoongi as a bottom so they will make him a SOFT UWU HYPERFEMININE person. shippers are literally pigeonholing the two of them into fujoshi-esque roles for jack-off material.

anyways this all boils down to: gay fetishists will do anything, ANYTHING, to twist characters or real life fucking people to fit their heteronormative view of top and bottom. top=mean and masculine, bottom=soft and feminine. hoseok is a real life human being. yoongi is a real life human being. they both have real life human personalities, and yet shippers twist their personalities into the opposite to fit their narrative, to the point where nonshippers will genuinely view the two of them as something theyre not.

you have tons of armys that theorize that hoseok's happiness is just a mask he puts on to hide a cruel nature. on twitter. on youtube. in fanart and fanfiction. you have tons of armys that truly believe that, despite literally all the evidence, believe he hates being cute, he hates being happy, he hates the members, and hes secretly a dom daddy fuckboy who wants to bend yoongi over a table. hes a real life human being and fetishists doing their fetish thing has real life consequences.

the same is true for bottom!hoseok stans: they overexaggerate his more cutesy personality traits and he does have a 'feminine' figure i.e. he has a rly small waist but they will overexaggerate that as well and give him huge hips and its disgusting but dom!hoseok is far more frequent with far more devastating consequences so i used that as an example but they’re both bad.

people who """"headcanon"""" [like actually headcanon/firmly believe and not just joking or lighthearted] that members are gay will force these types of roles onto the members. if someone genuinely believes that like, yoongi is gay/bi/whatever, and then try to force this subby soft uwu persona onto him, they have no respect for gay people. they dont. gay people are simply objects for their fantasies. their view of gay people is so one-dimensional and so driven by fetishists’ ideas that its actually disheartening.

and god bitches will deadass be homophobic yet still ship real ass human idols. not just for bts specifically but all boygroup fandoms. sometimes when you search up an idol's name, [idol] gay will be trending--whether it be because of people saying "im gay for him" or whatever, and a LOT of cishet people will try 'clearing' the searches because being gay is bad or something. people normally ‘clear’ the searches if something like [idol fat] or [idol ugly] are trending, which im telling you so you know the context that people only clear the searches when bad things are happening.

[never forget that time 'jungkook gay' was trending and bitches were like "lets clear the searches!" but their pinned tweet said some shit like "sub jungkook x dom jimin coffee shop smut au thread 🌈". bitches also be like i cant be homophobic i ship taekook]

and hoseok and yoongi arent the only ones affected ! we could get into why namjoon and jin (another popular ship) are often assigned 'dad' and 'mom' respectively, or the fact that gay fetishists not only twist members' personalities to fit their ship narrative, but will also force tropes onto them i.e. taehyung/jungkook shippers who will literally demonize jimin and call him a slut or say that he's trying to 'get in the way of' of taekook or 'steal' taehyung/jungkook but thats a whole DIFFERENT rant baby! racism/asian fetishism is also definitely a present factor in all of this but this focus was primarily on gay fetishism and heteronormativity.

oh my god i could also get into the severe transphobia/trans fetishism in this fandom too but this post is already long enough as it is

tl dr: gay fetishists will fetishize real life people and it has actual real life effects and we should ban straight women from shipping mlm

[thesharondefenseleague]

mlm imo werent sexualized to the degree that wlw were in most canon media mostly because of the male gaze. Gay and Lesbian relationships or moments got very limited representation. One was probably more sympathetic but also heart breaking like say brokeback mountain. One was explicit but depicted as grotesque or twisted or perverted or immoral in some way. And the last version was the titillating version. In western media because of the assumed straight male gaze lesbians making out to titlate guys was a common thing like say in Jennifer's body. The equivalent of that with guys wasnt really that common not in western media. Not that wlw couldn't like that content but it was made to be fanservice for men .

So thats what I kind of mean by wlw were sexualized at least in western media. This equivalent with mlm in fandom never really existed they never made out for girls to find hot in the same way. It was never marketed like oh look hot guys making out. Fandom did that but not canon.

As for comic book men being sexualized kind of. There is definitely the unrealistic beauty standards but theres that debate of was it for the purpose of titillating women? Or a result of toxic masculinity putting this unattainable unsustainable goal for men. Maybe both? But both in comics and the movies they are based on the posing and clothing and moments with women get made to clearly sexualize them . It especially ovbious with comics with them twisting their bodies so their boobs and butts are jutting out. Or like movie moments like Bruce landing in Natasha's clevage. Or angles where you are staring down a female character's shirt or she has a boob window for some contrived reason. Or just reasons to give full page spreads of them in skimpy clothing.

Its rare men get depicted like this or posed like this. And when they do it often stands out because its not the norm. It's something unique. Not true with men. Even in form fitting spandex they are often posed and framed to make to make them look powerful or intelligent or to reveal things about their character.

Again not that men never get sexualized or that fanservice is always bad. Or that its not a concern that men are having these terrible body image issues. But just that for women for the sexualization its so pervasive and constant was my point.

Its just as bad in wlw in canon as it is for women in relationships with men in canon when it comes to that sexualization but i hear so much more about the problems about the wlw ship than the mlw ship. Like to use DC as a example i hear so much about how people sexualized or mishandle harleyivy but compared to that i hear very little about batcat in comparison even though Catwoman is often just as sexualized in that ship.

As for misogyny in shipping wars yes it definetly exists and is a problem as is racism and homophobia. But my issue is mostly that the problem isnt because the main popular ships are mlm. But so often I see the argument framed that way.

Like shipping wars existed between m/w ships and still do today. And they are still often pretty misogynistic towards the woman in the other ship. I don't even have to look at other fandoms I remember Steggy vs Starton getting real ugly.

Mysogny in fandom doesn't uniquely pop up when mlm are the more popular ship. Its often just as bad in fandoms where m/w is the popular ship. But people just bring it up alot more they make it bout valuing the men over the women .

Well i mean that goes both ways you could say its homophobic for valuing the straight ship as better than the gay one or liking it more. But either way its stupid they dont care bout sexism or homophobia only that their ship is more popular.

Thats the sentiment of all ship wars the gender dynamics and racial make up change nothing. Nothing except the bullshit you use for the ship war.

The problem is that people are being homophobic and mysogynistic and racist not just in regards to fictional characters but towards real people just to win a ship war. It comes out so easily. Thats the problem imo.

Mysogny for example i think isnt discussed as much when its a m/w vs m/w ship war or drama because as both ships have women it can't be used to slander the other ship. But when its drama between fans of a m/m and m/w it comes out alot again not because anyone really cares but because now because one ship lacks a woman it can be used as fodder for what people actually care about. Tearing down the other ship.

Again not that mlm fandom doesnt have mysogny. They definetly do. But they aren't mysogynistic because they ship two guys together. Thats not proof they hate women. Having a ship with women isnt proof that you aren't sexist towards women. There might be homophobia in fandoms of mlm ships and mysogny in fandoms of m/w ships.

But in the drama between a m/w and m/m ships that doesn't get brought up because no one cares if that problem can't be used to show that someone only doesn't ship your ship if they are bigoted against it. Who cares about misogyny if your ship is two guys? Who cares about homophobia if your ship is straight?

No one because they cared about the popularity of their ship not the actual issues.

Gonna under under the cut for length again.

This is a lot to read so I'm gonna respond paragraph by paragraph and hope for the best in terms of comprehension.

When it comes to media made about the LGBTQ+ community, you have to keep in mind when it was made, who made it, and who was it made for. And that it's been shown that straight women have had the same reactions to mlm content as straight men to wlw content. QaF was dumbfounded to find that the majority of their audience was straight women when the show's sex scenes were 95% between two or more men and yet that's what they ran with because hey, it got the views. The views of mlm and wlw content in the mainstream media before then was minimized, despite how fucked a lot of the other content could be. If by "most canon media" being directed at the male gaze being summer blockbusters, and more specifically comic book movies, then sure. If we step out of that box, then not really. The film examples you chose are interesting because BB is portrayed exactly how the author of the original short story wrote it which was meant to be heartbreaking since it was a tragic dramatic piece while JB has a woman who wrote and another woman who directed it while purposefully trying to allow to actress to have a level of sexuality without exploiting her as past directors have (also neither of the main characters are lesbians - one is bi, the other I think is straight but maybe questioning?).

The sexualization of wlw in modern western media is definitely a thing. I mean, the first Iron Man film has stewardesses on the private jet pole dancing if I remember correctly. It took until 2016 to stop sexualizing Scarlett in every movie: the changing scene in IM2, the lowered zipper in A1, the ass shot in Cap 2, the boob faceplant in AoU (in your third paragraph, but mentioning it here anyway). It's a joke that you know when a man directs a wlw indie film during the sex scenes. But the mlm equivalent did exist alongside it, and it's what kicked off the century.

Comics and their movies were always for men. The male bodies are male wish fulfilment for their physical appearance. The women are male wish fulfilment for their dream girls. Funnily enough, one of the least sexualized women in comics I've ever read is Sharon. She's rarely, if ever, drawn to be sexualized for the audience. I'm not even sure she's even been in those swimsuit issues Marvel did years ago. And it shows heavily that Marvel struggles to know how to appeal to women without being aggressively in your face about it. The best example of them appealing without pandering is WV, and the worst is the group shots the Russos did in IW and Endgame, especially the latter.

But the men get those poses in the movies too. Thor bathed shirtless for no reason in TDW. There's a scene in Endgame dedicated to talking about Steve's ass. Pratt in GotG. Rudd in Ant-Man. Most actors are expected to look good shirtless and put themselves through intense shit to look that way. So do the women, but they aren't doing it to have the glamor shots of their muscles. And the MCU is not the only film franchise like this. Most, if not all, franchises with majority or entirely male leads expects them all to look like bodybuilders. And I'm gonna take back that it's just for the male audience, because these bodies are meant to appeal to women who are intended to thirst for these actors too. They think these bodies is what will bring women to the theaters.

None of this will change, as you say, that women's sexualization is "constant and pervasive". The film industry is just a part of the larger whole of media. Television and advertising have a treatment of women that's beyond whatever you or I say because there are decades worth of shit to go through that would take dozens of essays worth of writing to fully divulge beyond "please stop it's gross".

Now DC is a whole other ballgame. They're pretty infamous for their artists' sexualization of heroines and villainesses. Harley, Ivy, and Selina are definitely pretty bad, but when I remember what I've seen drawn of Kara, Kori, or sometimes Barbara... But outside of one artist, I think Harley and Ivy as a couple have been drawn tamely. Can't say the same for Selina, because they just can't not draw every part of her body even when she's fully clothed.

I think it's hard not to talk about fandom misogyny outside of m/m ships because of how often popular m/m shippers have rooted their shipping into misogyny. And even with m/f ship wars, a lot of the time the "faulted" character is always the woman when majority of the time it's the man who sucks. I don't get why everyone is fighting for who should kiss Steve because Steve sucks and they'd be better off without him. But because Steve is the object of affection for our fave, we have to fight off everyone else.

Don't look at other fandoms for m/f ship wars. We don't appreciate how tame we were, even at our worst. I'm serious, I've seen so much worse.

I think why the topic of misogyny comes up more with m/m ships is because they follow a similar principle of the male characters being more developed in canon and fanon so it's who people gravitate towards.

There is definitely layers of homophobia in fandom, but there's many versions of how we see it. Homophobes who won't ship anything that's not m/f. Homophobes who ship m/m but won't support IRL rights. People who love m/m but abhor f/f, and vice-versa. The shippers who use them for personal fodder. But the sexism is more prevalent than the homophobia. And the racism way more than both combined.

And it does cause a lot of ammo, and much of it severely unjustified, in ship wars. Literally the bullshit I've seen pulled out of thin air to accuse Sharon of not being worthy because someone said she's a racist for [they literally had no reason just called her one because we said Sam and Sharon are friends because they are] and other nonsense.

The real world repercussions of the homophobia, the sexism, and the racism in fandom... there's just so much. Like we are all still people, and yet we decide because we hide behind screens to be antagonistic, and use homophobic, sexist, and racist shit to attack each other over ships just because we want to paint the other person as crazy, I guess? If you can't see that there are no enemies in ship wars and that the other side is still people, maybe you need to sit out and log off. It's baffling how often it still happens to people. Then it's no longer about ships, it's about who is an asshole.

I will say that Steve and Peggy vs Steve and Sharon is probably the only m/f ship war I've seen where misogyny is talked about. Is, not was, because it still is. Both sides call the others misogynistic. I don't think either side is, but you can see in individuals. Those who tweeted at a certain actress that she was a slut for kissing her costar certainly are though.

You are right that shipping m/m isn't inherently sexist. But tearing down women in those ships to prop up m/m has made me stop shipping certain characters altogether. People, seriously, we don't have to justify why we like them! We can just like them! And other characters can still exist! It's never been that deep.

And you're right, the popularity of the ship helps people ignore any deeper issues within them and this is a power used to silence valid criticism if it pops up.

(I hope I answered everything well for you.)

~Mod R

[spaceysp]

Saying random stuff to feed into the hyperfixations; pick one of these statements to rant about because I wanna read :)) if u want,

How skeppy must feel with everyone meeting up cause BaD JUST COME ON ,

Opinions on bad planning to take skeppy to dinner and all that jazz ,

Skeppys newest video on the skep channel where bad and skeppy are surprisingly sweet to eachother (and how lately in general bad has been less angee with him) ,

Literally the whole discount skeppy situation , bad being literally in love,

Ride with U,,,,,hetero,,,,explanation,,,, anywhere?

ANONNNNN I OWE YOU MY LIFE ILY 

im literally going to talk about all of these so im sorry but read more at your own risk

one: skeppy, i am so sorry a mf does this to you. but seriously, i can only think of a few reasons (that dont sound entirely made for fanfic) that bad keeps putting off meeting skeppy 

1. (the most unlikely) theyve already met and they keep the bit going so the fans dont find out. i can get that they wouldnt want to tell at first because its their own business, but i seriously doubt they would wait very long to confirm it, because ppl honestly can put a lot of pressure and hype on the meetup (esp with skeppy’s “surprise”) so i think theyd release something just so everyone knew that it finally happened! they didnt lie!

2. bad just doesnt want to meet skeppy (actually nvm this is the most unlikely) 

bad seems to be genuinely excited to meet skeppy, even claiming skeppys the one to keep putting it off, not him (which skeppy immediately disproved but) and saying over and over he wants to meet up with him, but always avoiding actually making plans (every single tweet about the meetup) so its clear he does want to meet skeppy eventually, which makes trying to figure out why he wont even harder

3. its not the right time/ waiting for a specific date

leading up to this, i was thinking that there was a pretty good chance theyd meet up on their anniversary, but that never happened rip. the issue is with this is that they guaranteed they would meet up before the end of the year, and at this point theres only one “event” left, but they still dont seem to have any plans to meet. if bad was waiting for the perfect time to do it, why not just tell skeppy to confirm a meetup date? it would get him (and maybe the fans, if they told them) off his back. another variant of this is that there is a set date, but they havent told the public, but again, skeppy seems to be just as much in the dark about this as everyone else

4. health issues 

bads apparently been feeling pretty under the weather lately, with his arm and kidney stones, its very plausible (and reccomended, imo) that bad doesnt want to travel when hes having these problems. of course, skeppy could visit, but he could either not want to spend their time together sick or the plans they have could also be too straining. i think this is probably one of the most likely atm, go see a doctor bbh im begging you

5. bads nervous

this is also one of the more plausible to me. for whatever reason, bads just anxious about it, whether it wont be the same as talking online, or be super awkward or whatever, he could just keep putting it off for that (its still weird and kinda doesnt make sense but in a more realistic way this time)

i know i totally went off track but this brings me to my point, skeppys kinda just waiting for bads confirmation at this point, so seeing his friends have fun meeting up is probably just lowkey depressing and i could see him using it as more the reason they should meet up. really the only thing he can do in this situation(at least, as far as i can tell) is what he has been doing, annoy bad about it or he take advantage of bads jealousy and meet up with someone else. the other option is to randomly come to his house, but it doesnt seem like skeppy is gonna do that, maybe to respect his boundaries? if he was planning on it i think he wouldve done it by now

OKAY NUMBER TWO LETS GO

this kinda ties into my point in the “reasons why bad wont meet skeppy” thing, that bad seems really excited to meet him yet still wont?? its clear he really values any time spent with skeppy, but he also make sure skeppys having a good time too! that why he never does any actual work with skeppy around (i.e. building statues or gathering materials for such), he knows its boring so instead theyll wander around the server telling stupid stories or punching each other off stairs for 20 minutes. im sure itll be the same irl, he mentioned wanting to meet somewhere like a nature reserve or amusement park, probably to make sure theres never a dull moment or time wasted. dinner seems much more low-key, and i wouldnt be surprised if bad just wanted to have an excuse to try and impress him with a nice totally-platonic date

NUMbeR tHree *airhorns* 

they really do be the best of friends! ive noticed that skeppys def been trying to halt arguments fairly quickly now, saying a lot to appease bad and move on, and while bad seems to like to start fights for fun, hes also been a lot more chill lately, im guessing because hes been oh-so desperately missing skeppy and big s was also in Baby mode (aka if bad disagreed with him hed probably just cry until he got his way((sand))) i think that vid just showed them being a lot more natural and happy to talk (plus bad usually is more argumentative when theyre competing, while in that vid they were either just hanging out or working towards a common goal) 

n u m b e r f o u r 

where to even BEGIN with discount skeppy. well, bad actually first came up this idea a few months ago, in either july or august on an idots smp stream when he crafted an ‘artificial skeppy’ in his snack shack that he could talk to whenever skeppy was gone. as we all know idots smp is now rip, but the idea of replacement skeppys remained, just this time they can talk and also ship skephalo. it actually seemed like more of puffys idea at first when she put on skeppys skin as a joke, which bad didnt like the first few times, but when she brought it up again he actually requested it (missing skeppy brainrot 🤔?) this could be either cuz bad wanted to bait some shippers so gave in or he thought it was a pretty funny bit so went along with it (or he actually missed skeppy that much.. surely not ??) either way i think we can agree puffy is not only a comedic genius but a top tier friend and slight wingman, and getting some good jealous skeppy content out of it is also top tier. in conclusion, love and appreciate discount skeppy, badboyhalo has only skeppy on his brain and his friends have to deal with that, hoes (skeppy) mad even though the whole bit is how much bbh is into him

NUMBER FIVE im really doing all of them

What, can be said, about ride with u. GODDAMN. im not tryna insinuate anything, but if someone told me that song reminded them of me i would have no choice but to marry them immediately. i really really want someone to ask bad what songs remind him of any of his other friends (dream, sapnap, george, ant, puffy, etc.) because there are three options

1. theyre just cool platonic friend songs and bad is just in love with skeppy

2. he cant think of any songs for them and bad is just In Love with skeppy

3. they have equal romantic undertones and bad is just Like That with his friends (even so i bet people would be picking out the most minute differences between the songs that make one more.. You Know than the other) 

i know FOR SURe that if i was in bads position (where even the person who made the lyric video assumed they were gay in love) i wouldve curled into a ball and never made another public appearance again, but he really owned that shit, singing it and making unprompted references to it (”i already have a bonnie” YOU AINT SLICK SIR WTF) 

i just wanna know if skeppys listened to it (i mean, hes surely at least heard of it, i know he wouldve seen it all over his timeline) and what he thonks about it. pls tell us big s do you also feel the love in this chilis tonight (ALSO when is someone gonna ask skeppy what song reminds him of bad. im waiting ((hed probably say something like a faster remix or something equally memey (((unless???)))

ANYWAY SORRY FOR MAKING YOU READ ALL OF THAT HOLY SHIT i dont wanna reread this to check for errors so it might be incoherent but again ty for letting me infodump about this it was super fun im in love with you anon

[soofection]

Sorry for bugging u with ask I read somewhere that i-kadi shipper are stupid to ship them k-fans doesn't ship Kadi bcoz they know they are not real That's y there is no fansites for Kadi Is it true that K-fans doesn't ship them??? What do u think abt this ??

no way LOL its not possible for a well known ship such as kaisoo to have no fandom at all 😂, not sure if it has changed from 2016, but kfans ship kaisoo mainly under the surface, they talk about them more freely under the table. back in 2016, kaisoo was one of the major ship that became a sensitive topic due to media attention on pann's gay blind item.

then apparently due to hate / antis/ 'privacy' the kfandom much shifted undersurface. (highly recommend to read: this)

now in 2018, there are still alot of kaisoo kfans around, evidently by kaisoo kfans twt accs. From what my friends saw on twitter some fansites still hold kd exhibitions, kaisoo kfans even went out on kaisoo days for celebration (private, not fansites hosted)

as for fansites, ships dont have to be real in order to have fansites. but good question. theories back then was, fansites were forced to coverup, quiet down, and behave during kxk. and many just shut down or went on hiatus. what we mentioned In older posts was (my opinion still stand though) take kaiserdxlly as the most prominant dominant kaisoo site for example, they reduced posting moments after a few months to the start of kxk (point=they didnt hiatus BC of kxk) they suddenly went on a hiatus AFTER most of the kxk hype died down (jan2017)

it is weird bc if antis say 'they inactive bc they realized kxk is real' well wrong bc they wouldve hiatus as soon as kxk happened not after the hype died. And again ships doesnt have to be real to get fansites. nearly all ships have their own sites.

besides fanaccs showed kaisoo happened yet kaiserdxlly did not post when they normally would. The guess was: their content was restricted by someone, most likely sm. (makes sense if sm was also behind setting up kxk)

this align with why kaisoo moments drastically decreased in 2016 to late 2017. They were possibly (likely) told not to interact.

now the question is, why should best bros stop interacting if one of them is dating a girl and the other should be supportive of him?

you may say maybe they fought? well that could be, but why coincidently during kxk and why did kaiserdxlly restrict content when fans say kaisoo moments happened? Most importantly, kaiserdxlly out of the blue posted a behind the scene airport moment where ks intimately touched ji's neck in reassurance when ji was in a wheelchair, dont think soo would do that if they were 'fighting' or 'hate each other'

lastly if anyone keep track, kaiserdxlly posted kaisoo recently. They are still around, keeping check.

[missjackil]

SPN Did Something Pretty Amazing

One thing I have always liked about Supenatural, is that theyre willing to try things no other shows have done. Most of the time it works, sometimes it doesnt, but theyre not affraid to think outside the box. Things like having a cross-over with Scooby Doo, or episodes like The French Mistake, or Fan Fiction, are great, though theyre doable only because of the premise of the show. In the supernatural world, nothing is impossible. The heros die and come back a lot, old characters come back in various ways, in dreams, time travel, or even as the same character, and this is ok because again, in the supernatural world nothing is impossible. However, this newest amazing thing, at its core, didnt come to pass because of supenatural influence, but because of human actions, and viewer acceptance.  Two brothers and their Angel buddy, adopt an adult orphan son.  Think about that. What show has ever done such a thing? None. In similar cases, like 3 Men and a Baby, Full House, Two and a half Men, there is one defined Father, and then the other men are uncles or support for the one father. But not on SPN, all 3 have been defined as this kid’s father, even though none of them are biologically his father. Even before Luficer died, we saw this beginning. And even stranger still, there were always strong efforts to keep Jack away from his biological father, which is also not a common practice. When dealing with an older child, theres always a “let them chose” clause. But thats never really been the case on SPN, it was always “Keep Lucifer away from this kid” and justifiably so, I might add, but its still strange for TV isnt it? Yet, somehow this all worked. Now, this isnt a debate on who deserves to be Jacks main father, which would obviously be Sam but to just talk about how the show managed to make this happen and be completely accepted by the viewers. 

I work with several SPN fans, though Im the only one who wouldnt really be considered a casual viewer, meaning Im the only obssessed one LOL but the others arent involved in SPN SM on tumblr or twitter, they dont go to conventions and none of them are into shipping. (thats right, it seems most casual viewers dont ship the characters) yet all of them think its cool that Sam, Dean and Cas are Jack’s fathers, none of them think its creepy, incestuous, or gay. One did joke that it sounded like the synopsis of a very bad porno, (2 brothers, and their buddy take in a young adult orphan as their own) but then said that its a very cool concept.  What I think made it work, is everything thats gone down in the last 13 years. I dont care if youre a wincest shipper or not, but theres no closer relationship on the show than Sam and Dean. We know now they are “stuck” with each other, they wont be finding a significant other and building their own family, and even in the end, they’ll be together. Be it on Earth, in Heaven, Hell or the Empty. Also, they have no closer companion than Cas. Whether or not you like the character, canonically, Cas is their best friend that they love as a brother.  Since the show revolves around family dynamics, good ones and bad ones, we’ve seen Sam and Dean in every position. As brothers, sons, cousins, friends, and even as husbands breifly to Lisa and Amelia. we never really got to see them as fathers. The show could have remedied this by having one of their ex girlfriends show up with a kid “Surprize!!” but Im glad they didnt. This would automatically put one brother in the position of Dad, and the other as Uncle and Cas is just that buddy in the trench coat. The way it was done, put all 3 men in a fatherly position that developed over different time lines and circumstances.  Im going to try to break this down in an unbias manner. We can all feel free to disagree with the outcome, but its how the show itself unfolded this little highly unorthodox family. Cas was the one appointed to be Jack’s father. Kelly gave this duty to him when she decided to allow herself to die to let her son be born, and Cas accepted. So it looked as though Cas would be this boy’s father, but as it was, Cas was dead when Jack was born.  Sam came to the plate next. His relationship developed organically with Jack. Some may not have seen it coming, but Sam was determined long before Jack was born, to NOT kill him, but to try to let him be born without the worry that he would be evil. When it was apparent they couldnt take his grace and make him human, Sam knew it didnt mean Jack HAD to be evil. Sam took the role as mentor right away. Caring for Jack and having genuine compassion for him. We were given the hint Sam felt fatherly when they showed him reading a parenting book. (my god that was the cutest thing) So the writers flipped the script and gave Sam a head start in the father field. Also, with Sam being first, it added this layer of beauty, because Sam fell in paternal love with the son of his torturer. He wasnt enlisted, or pushed, it just happened, and thats beautiful. Dean came last, and as a story teller, I can see why they chose this route. It had been established since S1 that Dean is good with kids and naturally paternal. To have him be the first “father” would leave Cas and Sam on unlevel ground through lack of experience. For Dean to follow up second from Cas, would make it too shippy, and Sam would probably never make it out from under the  “uncle” title. and wouldnt we always wonder if Sam held a little resentment inside? Jack being the son of Lucifer for starters, and Dean taking him in as a son? Over the seasons, Sam has made it very clear, he never wants to be #2 in Dean’s eyes, and this could bring around some bad brother drama.  Dean starts off hating Jack. Indeed he was way too nasty to him in the beginning. Not even gonna debate that, but for Sam, Dean gives the kid a shot. He discovers that yes, Jack is a good kid and now Deans natural paternal side clicks on. And keep in mind he didnt try to step onSam and take over. Yes they showed Dean and Jack bonding more than they did Sam, but he didnt take over. He made sure taking Jack out was ok with Sam, so did Cas. They both respected that Sam has been Jacks primary care giver since day 1, and Sam isnt selfish or possessive (over anyone/anything else besides Dean) so Sam is happy to share Jack so he can have as much positive influence as he can.  So I give TPTB credit for coming up with this formula, my only complaint being that they didnt need to make Dean as hateful as he was, they could have just made him hessitant and standoffish at first and that would have been enough but it is what it is, and that part is over thank Chuck. Now, most of us knew the “3 dads” thing was coming because the cast talked about it a lot, but those of us who dont follow the cons and interviews, still were pleasently surprised that this came about. I havent heard anyone complain that its creepy, even though if you tell someone whos never seen the show “On my show, the 2 brothers and their friend adopted an 18 yr old kid” they’d look at you funny.  We complain about the writers all the time because they do screw up a lot, but I like to give them credit when I can. This is one of those situations. They made something that seems creepy on the outside, not only acceptable, but wonderful, simply by how it was written. I feel the same way about how they handled the return of Mary. It didnt pan out as well as it could have, and thats really a whole other meta, but Im glad they didnt take an easy route with her making her a zombie, or Super Mom and put her in a really human position of a mother meeting her adult sons for the first time, but Ill save that for another post :)

[19possums-blog]

On tianshan relationship and their fandom, i guess ?

hello there @nightfayre !! Im the 5asks anon lol (the one abt the last chapter of tianshan). I wanted to thank you for your answer and continue to rant in your askbox but i figured it was so long that mb it would crash ur box lmao, so I... kind of created a blog..... hm. well theres no bad reasons to create an account is there lol ?? (also is there no way to send a long ask ?? why is it so limited :(( )

So once again thank you for anwser, and what an answer ! You raised many points i didnt think about and that was very interesting. I knew i would be glad to hear your thoughts ! the rest under a read more coz i think its going to be looong lol

(( To do a sort of disclaimer : I despise fandom discourse and im more of the mentality “let ppl enjoy what they want as long as it dont hurt real life ppl”, and “dont like dont interact”. So everything im going to say is not an attack against anyone, but just a way of prolonging a manhwa that i like. Most of all, i want to emphasize that at the end of the day, its just a manhwa : it doesnt justify being mean or aggressive towards other real life ppl. If you find yourself raging while reading fandom wank, just stop reading, block, and go outside a little. My way of enjoying the manhwa is to be analytical, to criticize (positively and negatively) and to look at the material source as well as the fandom in itself ; if its (understandably lol) not your definition of fun, this post may not be for you !))

Ur totally right in saying that the hardest thing is separate morality, reality and fiction. I hope my asks didn't come across as a 'u shouldnt like tianshan bc its not morally good'. There is a lot of puritan push back on tumblr lately, and im totally against it. Everyone is free to like/ship what they want ; reading only ‘morally good’ literature wont prevent you to become a nasty person - i would argue itd be the exact opposite, as your spirit wont be trained to think critically or to evaluate a situation (and every situations is always grey) by your own means. Also, its important to separate fantasies/what you like to read and who you are/what you do. To be embarrassingly honest, and like many people, one of my sexual fantasy is rape ; but in my real life, im in a queer anarchist collective that actively fights against rape culture and defends rape victims. That is why i dont have a problem with SheLI/Mo shippers (or even HeCheng/SheLi shippers) even if its not my cup of tea, but i would have a problem if in real life (irl) ppl would say to irl Mo that irl SL is good for him (or if they wouldnt find it wrong that a irl 30yo Cheng is involved wt an irl 15yo Li). I digress.

But then again this confusion about fiction/reality/morality is at the core of the tianshan fandom -and many fandoms. I dont know about you, but i grossly see 3 types of ‘trends’ depending on how ppl interact with the source material  :

1.The ones who think you cant like something while being critical of it. I love 19 days but I think there are flaws in it, beyond tianshan dynamic (like how OX handles the transition between funny and dramatic moments –I think its badly done). It doesn’t mean I personally hate OX and wish harm to their family oc. Worse than this, the ones who, because they dont like certain things in 19 days, feel free to harass OX on their social media.  Here its a confusion between fiction and reality and a lack of critical thinking.

2. the ones that loves Tianshan because they think it fits the trope “Dark, handsome, tortured violent boy who is violent towards fragile, sweet, pure cute boy because he loves him” and the typically associated trope “the pure boy will change the violent boy by the pureness of his heart”. Aka the most common yaoi trope. Again, if it pleases people to see Tianshan like this, good for them and i hope they have a nice time reading 19 days. Lets face it, I love really bad yaoi and books. Its just not how i see tianshan at all, but to each their own. I just have a problem when these ppl insist that its an ok behavior to have in real life and say things like “possessiveness is a proof of love” uncritically (hint : it isnt). For me, its the difference between enjoying fast food (thats okay), and wanting to force everyone to eat fast food and to find it pleasurable (not okay).

3. the ones that think what you like in literature defines who you are, and so in order to be a “good person” you have to only like “morally good litterature” -there are the ones I personally find the more interesting bc they can ask good questions. But alas, in most cases its just puritanism badly disguised and currently they are in all fandoms. Lets not delve into the issue of this statement : what is ‘morally good’ ? who are in the authority to proclaim what is good ? how can you recognize what is ‘morally good’ if you dont see what is ‘morally not good’ ? is it literature’s responsibility to educate its audience ? do literature have to point out “watch out audience what just happened is not okay” as if we were brainless children ? whats more important : what you like reading or what you do irl ? .... Okay i totally delve into this lmao. Here its a confusion between fiction and morality and a rejection of critical thinking : we could say its like when the Catholics prohibited women from reading bc it would pervert them and think of the children).

Returning to the specifics of what we've been talking about  : so in this last case, you (generic ‘you’) think that you are a good person ; so you have to read morally good literature. So in this case, fandom isnt just a harmless hobby, but a proof of how you are morally good, imagine the stakes ! But alas, you happen to like 19 days and most specifically tianshan. You said (@nightfayre​ ) that you judge Tianshan unhealthy as they are now, and i wholeheartedly agree with you, so im not going to discuss why since you already explained it so well. So, what happens when you like a morally not good ship, but you think liking morally dubious things makes you a bad person ? You bent over backwards to explain that, in fact, this ship is morally good, to protect your integrity. And thats why, in 19days fandom since the last chapter (and its the same thing with every chapter where flaws of HT are revealed!), there are many posts going around “hm, in fact, what He Tian did is good ! i know it can seems like hes a violent asshole who dont respect MGS because he punches him, threatens him, and dont listen to him, but hm.... in fact its because he’s nice...” and then they do mental gymnastics to justify what is, obviously, not morally justifiable. And i find its a pity because, my guy, my buddy, nobody is going to throw you tomatoes if you like a morally dubious character, and also bc nothin is morally good ! everybody does what they think is the best in ‘problematic situations’ ! and thats what make life interesting ! and so, 19 days interesting ! The flaws of HT (and MGS) are what drawn ppl to his character, bc it makes him real, its makes him contradictory, we can project ourselves in him, and we can see a complicated character with awesome latent potential. And yes, treating someone like a territory bc you care about them is a flaw lol. (on this subject : i saw ppl saying that its protectiveness and not possession : if you protect someone like you would protect a territory, then its not a healthy protection. you deal with a human whose agency you must respect, contrary to a territory).

MGS and HT are the product of what happen to them in their early childhood and then their adolescence. Like you said, they grow up in a violent, twisted world, where being emotionally distant is the norm. I would even say that they are expected to conform to the standards of (toxic) masculinity : channel all your emotions into anger, caring is being weak and feminine, prove your worth by your physical strength, be in control in all ur relationship, etc. I would say thats why Mo is so hostile towards HT : HT challenges his masculinity, by seducing him (everyone know that the biggest fear of macho men like HT and Mo is being considered gay -_-) and being stronger than him. Lets face it, Mo has kind of a homophobic issue, like all the boys. Between JY who tells HT its disgusting being told hes handsome by a man (at the beginning of the manhwa, i hope by now he had grown out of it), or Mo who tells HT he isnt happy that a guy is on his bed or who desperately wants to prove his heterosexuality by saying he likes all cute girls to his baldy friend... HT is more nuanced, but at the end, when he ‘seduces’ Mo, its always predatory. He doesnt let himself being vulnerable and he aggressively touches Mo even without his consent. For me, its a way of proving his domination, not his interest (and when i say that, i dont mean that HT is not genuinely interested in Mo -just that his actions dont translate this). ZZX is the only one who seems to have a healthy relationship with his masculinity lol, but then hes the healthy one in all aspects (thats why i dont like his character and am not invested in zhanyi, even if irl i would love to be his friend).

With all that being said, oc HT wont know how to adequately express genuine concern and interest in Mo ! This sort of social interactions is not something you just know, its smth you learn. And in HT and Mo’s cases, nobody was there to teach them -we could even say that ppl in their life made them unlearn caring behaviors. So HT does what he does best : he fights and forces, and is surprised when Mo thinks (obviously) HT is evil. And also, like you said, Mo will never be (at least how he is now) a driving force in their relationships bc he will always run away from bonding with ppl. So here we are, HT being the only driving force in their relationship, the same HT who only knows violence. No wonder that their relationship is like this...

As it is, i feel like tianshan is kind of in an impasse right now. One or the other is going to have to evolve if we want to see their relationships changing. Either HT learns how to care without being violent (seems complicated if Mo doesnt challenges him, bc HT isnt going to realize this without feedback since its how he has always functioned), or, more likely, Mo is going to be honest with him and tell him that his behavior is hurting him. Though more probable, I dont see it happening anytime soon : for one, Mo isnt capable of seeing when he is hurting emotionally and what is hurting him ; and also, bc Mo doesnt know any other language than violence, not unlike HT. I think its smth most of the fandom ignore, how violence is smth that HT and MGS both have in common, and how if HT wasnt violent, MGS certainly wouldnt consider him at all.

Anw im excited to see where OX is going with all this ! Like you said, the forced kiss was pivotal to their relationship, so im kind of hoping it would be the same here ! I just hope they wont... do like usual and just put a funny chapter and ignore this latest development.....

OMG i wrote soo much and there is so much i still want to say.... i think im going to do a second post... sorry about the spam lmao

( @nightfayre : i dont know how this site works yet, is @ you alright ? will it show you my post in your notif or should i send an ask ?  bc i want you to see my answer, but i dont want you to feel pressurized to respond or interact or anything !! above all dont feel pressurized, i was sad last night when you wrote ‘im sorry to not answer more quicly’ bc you should answer at your own rhythm or not answer ! your blog is a hobby, not an obligation, so dont feel bad to not do more when yo already do much !! )

[knightofbalance-13]

https://thoughtfuldreamercreatorduck.tumblr.com/post/178356941317/knightofbalance-13 @thoughtfuldreamercreatorduck

Well Yeah but thats Not the point. There is literally a word for it being used for queer relationships. I dont Really See your point to be honest?

My point is that if that is all queerbaiting is: Then it means nothing. Gay people don’t get special treatment, just like straight people don’t get special treatment.

Well ühm… what? Just so i understood everything youre saying that one gay relationship means the show itself cant be guilty of baiting? Queerbaiting is, at least how i understood it, to tease something explicitly between Two characters and than Not go through with it.

And WR (nothing against the ship) just doesnt have the Same build up?

Is your auto correct weird or something? Or is that “uhm” with the symbol above the u a word I don’t know. If it is sorry but I have no idea what it means.

Yeah, the issue is that term implies that the creators teased an LGBT pairing but never delivered one. If they deliver but not the one you wanted: That doesn’t look like queerbaiting to me. It just looks like another sunk ship.

And to make my point clearer: Bumbleby doesn’t really...have any canonical ship tease or build up. Everything you listed was interpretation and that...doesn’t count since anyone can interpret anything from an piece of media.

Really a sigh? Is it this painful to Read my comment? I tried my best to Not Sound condescending or arrogant or something you know? Am I really that horrible to endure that you Need to put upon the extra Time you use of your spare time to write this comment, which i Hope no one forced you to Read or even comment on, on a actually resolved discussion, the extra seconds to add a sigh?

No, I’m just tired of shippers using interpretation as evidence in ships. I was tired of it when I was a shipper.

It’s nothing against you, it’s general exasperation.

Well Yeah… Thats kinda the point. Hints Not confirmation. Its like that in the entry i copied and entered.

... Was it? Sorry I might have missed that. I was in a shipping community that treated using teasing and such as canon evidence. I just assumed all shippers were like that.

I am Not pushing bumblebee to become Canon. Would i be overjoyed if it does? Yes of course but i wouldnt rip RT a new One if it didnt. When did i say something like *I RIOT IF BB DOESNT GO CANON* Seriously when? Cause that was Not at all my intention.

Sorry again, I might have missed that but I have literally seen people threaten the writers over shipping so I’m kind of touchy about it.

Do we REALLY Need to force this to becoming a BB vs BS thing? Because it looks like you try just that. I was Not trying to do that. What point does it have here?

Sorry I didn’t mean to. It’s just easy to counter one side with the other.

My point was “This can be done for literally the exact opposite so this isn’t a good argument.”

I didnt want this Post to be about another Ship war i just Wanted to point out that something that gets in your words like being okay with Ghosts has some reason with it. Thats why i decided to Not go into the other reasons and just Make a Quick overview of some that came at the Front of my head.

That might be our difference: I almost never consider queerbaiting to have a valid reasoning. That just because it may have a reason to exist doesn’t mean it actually does or that it’s a good reason.

And AGAIN when did i say that? Look you appereantly seem to misunderstand some Things so Let me explain…

Please do: No one ever explains anything to me.

This Post was mainly just me trying to Show that there ARE reasons behind the overused queerbait threat. Can it be overused or wrongly used? Yes of course but there is some sort of ground work set that DOES have a Form of valid argument.

Okay then. As for me: those reasons don’t work. Why? Because the word carries an implication of double standards against LGBT people but from a shipping perspective, BB is being treated the same as what is considered it’s straight counterpart.

For me it wouldnt count as queerbaiting till they just Make Fun of bumblebee in the Show: something like Sun kissing Blake while ridiculing Yang. (THAT would be something we’re i would snap but mainly because Yang is my favorite character and she doesnt deserve any more shit, but thats beside the point)

Yeah, that is shitty no matter what.

About Interpretation… You know this works both ways right? All the interactions of Sun and Blake can be seen as friendship too. (As a side Note Adam didnt even aknowledge Sun existed till he saw him at haven, just felt like saying that)

For the sake of this discussion, I agree. ...I have no stake in this war aside from whatever gets the writer’s the least hate. And that’d probably be no ships canon at all.

Anyway if you want to Really reopen this already closed thing and try and turn this into a Ship war, why dont you just Message me personally when i get the Time between eating, sleeping, work and living i answer to it and we talk like this like the civilised humans we are. Besides this Can be seen by everyone and i think titan and katie are just about as done with this thing as i was. (Very Happy this got resolved peacefully btw)

I had no idea this was finished at the time.

Hell I chewed Titan out for his outburst since he’s a friend right after that post.

This was just apparently my toxic fandom paranoia going out of control. Sorry this got so bad.

[jambud-universe]

   Hey, so I know I’m gonna be talking about a sensitive subject with this, and i know it might start some controversy stuff, but i’ve been holding this in for a year now or so and i just really had to get it out. I do not intend to offend anyone, i just would like to be heard out if thats okay.

  I should start this out with my drawing, and steven and connie’s relationship.  Steven and Connie’s relationship is heterosexual, or at least heteroromantic since they’re not at the age for intimacy yet (Connverse is basically canon so i think its safe to say they have a relationship). Now, I,myself am a straight girl, so i guess it’d be obvious i have a better interest in straight relationships over queer ones. But do i only like connverse because it’s a hetero ship? of course not! I like steven and connie for how they are together and alone. They’re both well written characters,and have a great connection with eachother. Pretty much in the beginning, it started out as steven having a crush on connie and didn’t know how to talk to her,but eventually they started a true and wonderful friendship together, as well as developing a cute romance once they got to know eachother better. They’re both just two young people who feel innocent and blissful when they’re singing or dancing or just hanging out together. I can go on with more examples,but if you’re a connverse shipper you should know what im talking about.

    So, about the drawing. It’s in black in white,which are the colors of the straight flag (im not sure if its official or not). Which might be taken as a micro-aggression against the gay flag,but i dont see it that way. I see it as a symbol of the Yin-Yang sign (which i’ve always seemed to have an interest in). Since the (Yin) black side represents women,the moon,calmness, and submissiveness. And the (Yang) white side represents men,the sun,pride, and dominance. Together they stand for the power of two different forces, and how they complement eachother,yet are so different. Bringing a unique balance to the world (or relationship).  I think steven and connie’s relationship is a really important example of heterosexual relationships, especially in this day and age since its really hard to see a relationship in the media that isn’t just based on attraction and not actual chemistry.

     I think it’s important since the show has two different relationships that are pretty similar, steven and connie which are straight, and ruby and sapphire which are gay. I think i like it for displaying both relationships with a fair amount of ups and downs, with the love thats obviously there. I like the idea of portraying both gay and straight people equally because, they are. Who you are as a person shouldn’t be judged on your sexuality, but people should like you for who you are as an individual. The show displays both straight and gay relationship in a normal and healthy way, and i really like that.

   So this is kinda where it gets personal about me, so i do not mean to hurt anyone if i say something wrong. I wasn’t always straight (believe it or not) when i was like 5 i remember equally considering the possibilities of being in a relationship with both boys and girls, hell i even remember having the mindset that if two guys get together,they have a son,and if two girls get together they have a daughter,and a guy and a girl could have either. When i was around middle school or so i never really felt attracted to anyone (my anxiety keeps me away from people anyways) so i was aromantic but i felt more comfortable considering myself straight and not queer, since i didnt feel like i needed to group myself, and it wasnt a big transition or anything, thats just how it was i guess. I’m just straight now since my now boyfriend (who i love with all my heart,and basically have a relationship like connverse with him) admitted he liked me and i just said “fuck it, you’re nice so i’d like to see where this goes”.  All this stuff has been simple to me, and it never felt like a big transition to me really.

What motivated me to speak out now is that originally, i wanted to see if there was some straight appreciation, or gay-straight alliance day where i can post this, but all i got where tweets and posts just saying some really offensive stuff. I saw this one thing posted (as a joke) talking about a terrorist attack (or something similar) in a gay bar with the tag “happy heterosexual pride day”. Which, is just repulsive, basically calling everyone confident about being straight a terrorist, making a joke out of it, and taking a horrible tragedy of people dying as a joke to make instead of doing something positive for those in the community who were hurt. For years now, i’ve seen posts passively joking and stereotyping straight people,which for one is insulting an entire group of people for their sexuality, and thats just kinda ironic since im sure gay jokes are offensive, i find them offensive too. And then right after they make posts like this they say shit like “heterophobia doesn’t exist” which really ticks me off since that in itself is an example of people thinking “or you’re straight so you don’t face any hardships in the world and have a perfect relationship with your family and are healthy and not misunderstood in any other way”  i’ve seen this shit a lot, and i’m mentally disabled,i’ve been abused by my family physically,mentally and sexually, i guess its just ironic to me,though its not noticed as much but straight people still get shit at them and blamed for things they didnt do. And hell,i waited a year,and i still feel bad just saying how i feel.Maybe its just a personal thing and all im doing is finding some shit to rant about because im an asshole,if you want, you can minimize my feelings to that.  I know hardly anyone would hear me out,let alone understand.

I’m not saying there should be a straight pride day,since that’d be pointless, but i’d like a straight-gay appreciation thing, because both sides have people who are innocent and would like to seek equality. I just believe that would help seek past conflict, and maybe calm down some aggression in some way. I know the queer community has been through a lot and is still struggling, and while that is awful, that doesnt mean every straight person is homophobic or rude, though i know a lot of people these days are and i believe it will get better in the future and hope people of any sexuality will be equal.

Again, i didn’t mean any offense to anyone, and if you’re queer and made it this far, i hope your life gets better if you’re going through any struggles, same goes to anyone reading this who needs some cheering up. the last thing i want to do is hurt anyone.  you’ve been really kind to have read this far in my nonsense,and for that, i respect you for listening to me.💜

[fishwiki]

hey

Naruto Challenge

thanks @lepsuconi​ for taggin me

Name Your Favorite

Female Characters: tsunade, karin, hinata

Male Characters: rock lee, itachi, gaara, kankuro

Team: team gai 

Sensei: gai :’)

Hokage: tsunade

Kage: gaara 

Village: mist

Akatsuki: deidara and kisame

Jutsu: if we’re talkin in general i like taijutsu the most but for a certain move i like hinatas twin lion fists

Episode/Chapters: the kakashi mask one what else could there possibly be but in all seriousness i like the zabuza and haku fight / aftermath like. it just can not be beat cause they werent just regular ol bad guys

Fighting Scene: gaara vs lee you know why

Fanfiction: i dont read that much fanfic ig 

OTP (Explain why): kakagai because theyre fuckinf perfect for eachother duh and also narusasu because the whole fucking anime is about the relationship between them. i also like sakura x ino you know tf why :’) (OH and hashimada because madara put hashiramas face on his titty)

NOTP: any incest / age gap which is probably a given (kakasaku shippers should die) but 2 be specific sasusaku bc its abusive or almost any het ship except narusaku bc thats p good in my book.

Crack Ship: kankuro and kiba. its just good

BroTP: naruto and kiba LOL

OT3: gaara, sasuke, and naruto. 

Crossover Ship: ive devoted my entire life to naruto

Do You Have Any Headcanons: the ending of naruto doesnt happen and instead after naruto and sasukes fight resulting in two less arms theyre like fuck it lets run away together and naruto realizes he didnt want to be hokage he just wanted to be recognized as a good person who deserves respect and he got that by the end so he lets sakura become hokage with ino as her shadow and also wife.... also everyones a lesbian

Are you happy with the ending? Anything you would have changed? More or less: well i explained it before in the last question its kinda just what i think really happened because kishimoto is a little bitch . but lets be realistic if naruto HAD to end up w some girl it shouldve been sakura. they just get along well and have always been close and understanding of each other . hinata should have taken care of her clan because she REALLY strived to be the best for her family. also there is no way in fucking hell naruto would be a neglectful father like he is depicted later on.

How do you feel about the new generation: theyre cute but after watching a few eps of the anime i can definitely say they rush way too much like holy shit i have no time to process any of it and the jutsus are ferocious right off the bat. maybe boruto is just skilled? but there should definitely be a slower pace christ

Say something about your favorite character. Good and bad: well it would be a given that my absolute fave is naruto so i guess like anyone i loved his enthusiasm and loyalty but it does piss me off

Say something genuinely nice about your NOTP: i have nothing for you. Leave

Say something negative about your OTP:

Anyway to change your mind about  your NOTP: no please die

What made you mad about the series? um basically the whole child soldiers thing for 1 and 2 sasuke was right the whole damn time and naruto should have fucking listened to him thanks (basically naruto was too fucking patriotic abt the village and sasuke saw right through that dumb shit) naruto should have realized the village needed massive changes and instead he just thought sasuke was having some sort of phase

If you could see anything happen in the series, what would it be? everyone beating the shit out of kishimoto 

What would you say to Kishimoto: fuck you old man

i tag anyone who wants to ! @shepe idk if this is ur kinda thing also @narutoi 

[bi-dazai]

hmm i dont want this to sound weird and im honest to god not picking a fight w/ u, but...interpreting dazai as “mentally stronger” is betraying his character. dazai has been traumatised and abused and only acts strong to avoid opening up and being honest about himself. he’s also extremely smart and its clear that he’s constantly thinking. one of the appeals about chuuya taking control is that it allows dazai to clear his mind and distract him. both of them are equally traumatised, neither of them is stronger than the other, they both excel and suffer in different areas with some points where they share - thats the appeal of the ship, and what makes it so genuinely heartwarming.

dazai dislikes pain, that’s true, but what about bottoming is...painful?? im not quite getting this lol sorry. even the kinker bdsm-esque fics i enjoy with dazai as the sub havent involved very much actual pain/sm, mostly stuff like blindfolds and control. the only bottom!dazai ones where pain have been employed are ones set in either dark era or beast au and are written not as “smut” (ie pornography to be enjoyed) but as a look into a toxic relationship.

the problem i brought up and wrote the entire post on was my frustration with the straight soukoku content creators in the fandom and their characterisations of bottoms and tops as being the “girl and boy” dynamic, not something that actually exists outside the realm of masculine/feminine dynamics. i was then even further frustrated by the fact that even if you accept that logic (that the more feminine one is the bottom), it hardly makes sense for chuuya to be seen as the feminine one when dazai straight up uses nonbinary pronouns and his irl work (for which his character in bsd is based) often included female protagonists. dazai’s japanese va (mamoru miyano) is also well known for playing more feminine male characters (including dazai). theres a lot more i can go into, but basically its extremely obvious that dazai has been typecast and deliberately made out to be more feminine. it irritates me that despite this so many straight skk shippers think that chuuya is the “feminine” one solely because he’s 1) short (i’m his height, so...) 2) his va was in a yaoi early in his career?? and 3) he had a whole pretty rich girl thing in episode 10?? but that was to humiliate him because he conceded defeat against dazai??. 

furthermore if you appreciate bottom/top dynamics as the appeal for each for the character, there’s much more appeal for bottom!dazai and top!chuuya in terms of character than the vice versa. for one, its established that chuuya is the body and dazai is the brain of soukoku. doesnt it make sense that chuuya would be much more confident in body than dazai? dazai is lazy, and chuuya has in canon called him a princess. i could write more, and one day i most definitely will write up why i see them both as verses with 75% dazai bottoming and 25% chuuya topping, but thats not for now and this post is getting mega long haha

theres also the appeal of this dynamic and how it betters and explores the characters. chuuya can take care of dazai, dazai can stop thinking and let go and express his emotions honestly and openly. 

i know people dont quite get this but in fanfiction/hcs there really is emotional merit in considering which character tops and bottoms and how often and in which situations. irl gay couples switch it up, and i firmly believe every fictional couple i ship would also switch it up since thats just...normal. (also im a verse so my need to relate has to be filled lol). but there is a dynamic to each role per characterisation and the straight fujo skk shippers miss out on the dynamic just to have dazai be the cool controlling uke and chuuya be the small tsundere seme (makes me throw up using those terms lol). not every bottom chuuya fic ive read treats it like that, but most do and the reason is that these people do not understand gay relationships and gay sex outside of yaoi. thats a problem.

There was a really good post by one of my favourite skk fic writers about the way a lot of straight skk writers who think chuuya is the main bottom mischaracterise chuuya just because he's the short one with longer hair, ie in their minds the "girl" of the relationship. Actual canon characterisation definitely puts them as, in my humble bisexual creative writer analysis, both verses with dazai bottoming more and chuuya topping. Like Chuuya is primarily the far more masculine one, his voice is much deeper and he acts much more masculine while dazai is more androgynous. This doesn't define top and bottom of course but if these people paid any attention to the actual characters and not just the idea of two pretty anime boy characters together they would pick up on that.

The post I think even pointed out that chuuya being characterised as feminine is humiliating to him, that was the entire point of the pretty rich girl act. So if in their minds the feminine one is the bottom, then why is it that they've picked chuuya when clearly the more feminine is dazai, whose characterisation is based off his own work in which he wrote often as a gender undefined or female voice?

Furthermore, the height different of soukoku by these people is dramatically enhanced. I've straight up seen people on twitter say chuuya isn't the top because he "isn't tall enough". I have....no words. Like. Have you ever been in a relationship before??? Their fics always make it seem like Chuuya is a dwarf and Dazai is an ent. It's insane, their height difference is significant but it isn't nearly as insane as they make it out to be. It's even more to feminise chuuya.

I'm just kinda pissed about this entire thing tbh. Cos it's massive mischaracterisation that makes chuuya out to be feminine when he's a masculine character and makes Dazai out to be some sly romantic genius when in canon reality he's excessively melodramatic and extremely bad at flirting.

I don't mind bottom chuuya (I used to write it myself when I only knew about their relationship with one viewing of the anime, meaning episode 9-10 and episode 21). But the skk fandom's fujoshi side is getting on my nerves lmfao and I've started avoiding bottom chuuya fics cos they're almost always written by fujos at this point and completely mischaracterise the characters so they can write another yaoi couple with some banter, not actual soukoku.