#if it helps. for context. i'm pretty certain i have npd and bpd

[clowngore]

hi fellow cluster b personality disorder havers. um. does it get better

[nikkoliferous]

Based on this discussion, all psychiatrists and counsellors should immediately stop treating any mental illness they don't have personal, firsthand experience with. While I'd agree that neurodivergent people definitely make better therapists than neurotypical people, as they're better able to empathise with the specific issues those of us who struggle with mental illness face, that argument seems specious since it's hard enough as it is to find quality help without arbitrarily dismissing people who may genuinely care. And as pointed out above, "armchair diagnosis" is a term used to distinguish between casual and clinical diagnosis of a disease. Since fictional characters can't go to a doctor, it definitionally can't apply here.

And before anyone asks, I don't have ASPD or NPD, but I do have BPD. So I get the whole stigma thing. Pretty tired of reading about how we drain people's lifeblood and microwave cats or whatever. But that doesn't mean no one who doesn't have BPD should be allowed to talk about BPD. It doesn't mean people who talk about having been abused by someone with BPD, and who explain how the traits native to the disorder contributed to that abuse, are extrapolating that all people with BPD are abusive. Just as I don't think anyone here is saying that all people with NPD are abusive but rather that certain traits inherent to NPD do lend themselves to abuse, thus helping to explain why specific people abuse others in specific ways. To deny that is to deny reality. Not all abusers are narcissists and not all narcissists are abusers, but that doesn't make it invalid to discuss risk factors. In fact, it's critical to do so. When I blow up yet another relationship because of my BPD, it's not enough to simply tell me it's not my fault because I'm mentally ill. Being mentally ill isn't my fault, but if I'm making no effort to modify my behaviour and learn coping skills to minimise/make me less vulnerable to such blowups, that actually is my fault. So please, let's not go so far in trying to be empathetic that we treat neurodivergent people as fragile and put them in a little bubble labelled "do not criticize". That's not helpful to my recovery or anyone else's.

Finally, if Odin, Thor and/or Loki suffer from any personality disorder, it's important to note that they are both undiagnosed and untreated. Different people can struggle with the same illness to varying degrees, and people who are undergoing treatment for their illness will always function better than people who are not. By definition, untreated personality disorders are highly disruptive; that's what makes them disorders and not, say, just an annoying quirk. Thus making it even more irrational to try to extrapolate their negative behaviours to being a commentary on all people with NPD, ASPD, etc. As in all things, context and nuance matter. But if anything, I'd argue that diagnosing beloved characters like Thor and Loki with highly stigmatised illnesses makes people who struggle with those illnesses in real life seem more sympathetic, not less. Imagining Loki as having BPD, for example, doesn't make me feel like all borderlines are evil. Rather, it reminds me that Loki's so-called "villainy" comes from a place of legitimate trauma, and it makes me relate to and love him all the more. It makes me wish I could reach into that fictional universe and pull him out; give him a hug and a sympathetic ear, maybe some tips on how to deal with his turbulent emotions. Which it turns out is probably a way of showing compassion to myself, albeit in a very indirect, roundabout sort of way. Most people would say that's a good thing.

There’s always discussions about Loki being a Psychopath/Sociopath, but what about Thor? He’s got plenty of superficial charm, and often takes other’s accomplishments for his own, doesn’t that count as being parasitic? Examples would be him implying Suf wouldn’t be where she is without him from Thor 1, and all those times he uses Loki to get what he wants while scorning Loki for it. I.E Loki’s sky walking in TDW, calling the Statesman his spaceship despite Loki’s own efforts, etc.

To answer this question, we first need to know what psychopathy/sociopathy is. I don’t have academic studies in this field. I did a little search and it was confusing since apparently this is a controversial matter. What I gathered is that, psychopathy and sociopathy aren’t considered official diagnosis because they aren’t included in DSM-5(Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) which is the reference for mental disorders. They both fall under ASPD(Antisocial Personality Disorder) diagnosis. But while sociopath is definitely not a clinical term, some psychiatrists believe that ASPD and Psychopath personality should be categorize differently, and some sources say psychopaths are considered to have a severe form of antisocial personality disorder. Considering all that I’m going to answer this with common traits of ASPD, since it’s the only clinical diagnosis.

*Failure to obey laws and norms by engaging in behavior which results in criminal arrest, or would warrant criminal arrest

We know both Thor and Loki have a disregard to following laws. I think this is more because of the fact that they were princes and are used to get out of trouble easily, not because they tend to do criminal acts.

*Lying, deception, and manipulation, for-profit or self-amusement

More than lying, Loki hides behind half-truths or answers in a way that his audience interpret what they want to hear. His deceit and manipulation aren’t for his amusement and are mostly to succeed in his plans which aren’t always for profit(ie. stopping Thor’s coronation to keep Asgard and nine realms safe). The only time we see Thor tries to manipulate people is in TR which I don’t consider in character for him.

*Impulsive behavior

Thor is impulsive out of the two of them, while Loki prefers to plan before he acts.

*Irritability and aggression, manifested as frequently assaulting others, or engaging in fighting

This behavior is again shown by Thor rather than Loki. Specially before his banishment. Which he got better at it until TR managed to destroy his character development. The only time we see Loki act more aggressive is when he is under the influence of mind stone.

*Blatant disregard of the safety of self and others

This trait was shown by Thor before his banishment, which was resolved until again TR took it from him.

*A pattern of irresponsibility

Thor before his banishment. An argument also can be made that leaving Asgard in Odin’s hands despite seeing his wrong decisions was irresponsible.

*Lack of remorse for actions

Both Thor and Loki show remorse for their wrong actions. Except for the TR version of Thor.

So based on this assessment, I don’t think either Thor or Loki have ASPD. I still think Thor’s behavior is a sign of narcissism which in TR shows itself as narcissistic abuse and his characterization in TR and the movies after that for the most part are ooc. And that’s because of the director’s and actor’s choices rather than having an in universe explanation.

@juliabohemian I’d love to know your opinion.