#i'm pretty sure this non-exclusive relationship is not going to go over well lmao

[apricote]

[realasslesbian]

so you've stated before you think non-gold stars can be lesbians. how can a female thats slept with males be a lesbian ?

Well, you see, living in Australia means I'm pretty much surrounded by countries that still criminalise homosexuality. A lot of the lesbians I've met over the years have fled these countries. I've heard stories about arranged marriages and conversion therapy and corrective rape and other assorted horrors that, as a westerner, I could barely imagine otherwise. Hearing these stories is actually what made me pursue international gay and lesbian rights for my legal honours thesis, and it's a topic I've remained interested in ever since.

I think us first-world gays have a very insular and protected view of the world. Sure, we might have experienced some homophobia and probably still do. I've been stalked by cops and fired from a job for being a lesbian. But that's a very different, and comparatively privileged, experience to the very real and immediate fear for your life that most gays and lesbians around the world still live with, every second of their lives.

I think the idea that ONLY gold star lesbians are real lesbians is a very first-world perspective that ignores the experience of the majority of gays and lesbians around the world. I don't think a lesbian choosing to sleep with a man when the other option is being forcibly drugged, sterilised, mutilated, correctively raped, tortured and/or murdered, really says anything about whether she's a 'real lesbian' or not. Sure, a lot of lesbians in these situations still do endure the violence or even die before trying men, but I think it's more a case of 'would you prefer to jump out a burning building or die in the fire'. In any case, these are the kind of choices that most lesbians globally have to make, and stating that any woman who has chosen to sleep with men isn't really a lesbian I think at best is ignorant, and at worst is actually harmful to statistics about lesbian hate crimes.

That said, when another white first-world woman like myself proclaims she 'tried men, or even had a husband and five kids, but that doesn't make her any less of a lesbian and fuck them snotty gold stars who tell me otherwise', well, I'm probably gonna keep telling her otherwise lmao

Most of these females have led obviously simple lives, enjoying the benefits of a heterosexual relationship, and not experiencing any major hardship irt their sexuality. Certainly not the sort of 24/7, visceral, fear for your life, type of hardship most other lesbians in the world do. I think these first-world women trying to cry 'comphet' or whatever is actually kind of insulting to the lesbians around the world who have experienced actual violent compulsory heterosexuality. Folding to peer pressure is not anywhere in the same ballpark, and it actually makes me pretty fucking mad having to listen to that type of privileged bullshit.

Like, if we want to be controversial, I can maybe understand a female who tried men once, was disinterested, and has stuck to women ever since. I can't relate, because men gross me tf out so I would never be in that situation. But on the face of it, being a lesbian is just about exclusive attraction to women. You don't necessarily have to feel any type of way about men, other than just not being attracted to them. A female fucks a man once and says 'yeah nah that was boring as shit', I could probably accept her calling herself a lesbian. But if you've had three kids to five different baby daddies and a whole ass heterosexual marriage then lol sorry, but it's a no from me.

But again, that whole discourse is very first-world and I think the significance of it pales in comparison to what the majority of lesbian women in the world have to go through. To me the 'gold star lesbian' label is a bit of fun, and at its most serious reveals the face of heteronormativity which is increasingly permeating the first-world lesbian sphere. But imo, there's bigger fish to fry and I'm very hesitant with making any sort of sweeping generalisations about lesbians that doesn't sit well with what I know to be the reality for most lesbians around the world.

[doberbutts]

Your tags are interesting to me because I am not autistic but am neurodivergent and the large majority of men I've dated and partnered with have been somehow ND themselves and when writing romance and intimacy I almost exclusively write reference 1: myself and experiences I personally have had 2: men I have had as friends and/or partners 3: people and scenarios I find incredibly attractive.

I don't know if I would specifically call it an autistic thing because I have seen it in non-autistic neurodiverse people, but I have also seen it often enough to know it's more common than a lot of folks realize.

I also used to experience similar prior to transitioning. I never really considered my own capacity to be found attractive to someone and in fact was so used to being treated as the ugly daughter/sister that when someone would voice attraction, it would make me feel BAD and I would reject it out of hand as that person just trying to be nice about my obvious ugliness. Literally the worst way to convince baby!me to give you a chance was to say you thought I was visually pleasing because I straight up wouldn't believe you and would get incredibly suspicious about what you wanted from me. Vs now I preen and coo when dudes drool over me online and in person.

And I think I've given Panic a little of both, but a more healthy state of mind than I had when I was young. He's a tiefling that was raised surrounded by humans, and while his family came to accept him before he was old enough to remember anything different, visitors to the monastery were frequently quite frightened of him when he would walk into the room. That is, of course, why he chose to be called Panic.

So the concept of being wanted based on physical traits is a little foreign to him currently- as a traveling monk making just enough money to feed himself by punching bandits and rebuilding wells, most people regard him with a healthy amount of suspicion and keep a wide berth. He's a constant stranger and he's not a folk hero so he doesn't get Wyll's "beloved by the masses" reception when he rolls up to civilization looking for some food. He doesn't do big acts of heroism and in-game he asks the bards to please not sing about him (humility is prized by his patron) so most of his experiences with other people are one-offs.

And also some of it's just Panic himself. He's never thought too hard about pursuing romantic relationships and doesn't even know what gender(s) he likes, Astarion's the first to really tempt him and he's still not sure if he wants to move forward with that or how he wants to respond to the offer. In-game they did have sex but that's mostly bc I wanted the approval points lmao it's fade to black after he gets bit and for whatever reason Astarion never took off his pants even tho Panic did. So for all I know they did a little bit of heavy petting and dry humping and decided to call it there. Which I think would be more accurate for Panic considering, again, his high insight modifier let's him see through the front and I don't think he'd be comfortable pushing for more than that as a result.

So Astarion comes up to him in camp all flirting and eyelash batting and Panic's like uhhh OK. Logically I know you are actively flirting with me. And I suppose the compliment is appreciated. The other night was pretty fun. But A: how do I even respond to this and B: it doesn't really seem like you want it and you not wanting it kills what interest I have in continuing. So instead I'm going to give you a mildly confused look and say Some Monk Bullshit about balance and discipline and give your shoulder a squeeze before going back to what I was doing.

And in the mean time Astarion's like "?????? That usually works what the fuck??? Tf you mean???? Hello??? I'm super hot and you're supposed to be drooling over me wym good morning Astarion the petals of the flowers give praise to the sun today??? I didn't fuck you to have a discussion about mental peace achieved through perfecting your breathing I did it because you're supposed to be seduced by me???"

can i be thirsty for panic in ur inbox

You can. Panic's reaction would be sort of bemused. He's not used to being the center of attention

[thinkingisadangerouspastime]

I just want to say, before I say anything, I'm not accusing you of saying this and I understand that you feel how you feel. I'm just asking this in a very general way and was wondering your thoughts. Why is it so verboten to think Zuko might have had a slight crush on Katara? There seems to be a rush to not just deny it but to treat it like it's some sort of horrible thing to even suggest it and I'm not sure why that is?

Katara is presented as a beautiful, lively girl who is a powerful bender. Why wouldn’t Zuko be a little starry eyed over that? It doesn’t mean she likes him back. Idk, I’m not exactly sure where my point is, except that being shouted down for just advancing the idea that maybe Zuko had the hots for Katara is a little frustrating? I’m not saying he was wacking off in his bunk thinking about her or expected to get some while they were hunting Yon Rha.

Also, unrequited crushes happen in ATLA-verse? Toph/Sokka anyone? Why does that never get screeched on but saying “Hey, Zuko loved Mai but he was probably looking at Katara and thinking ‘noice!’ a couple of times” the worst thing in the world? Is it the Water Tribe/Fire Nation thing? I mean, if it’s that, I wish people would just say that and stop screaming at people for their headcanons and whatnot. [theend]

Lol do not worry anon I know this isn’t an accusation!! Not only have I myself never perpetuated this rhetoric, but I don’t think I’ve really heard it before! Maybe once or twice?? I might just keep to chill parts of fandom, lmao, and that’s why I’m not very familiar with it. But I’ll do my best to theorize what may spark conflict based on the info you provided me!

(I’ve talked very briefly here about Zuko having/not having a crush on Katara before, if you were wondering.)

My main guess is that it’s not the headcanon itself that makes people frustrated, but how some shippers probably treat the HEADcanon as canon-canon (not an issue exclusive to Zvtara, btw; all big fanon ships have this problem - Zvkka, anyone? lmao). I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with headcanoning that Zuko had a crush on Katara! But in that same vein, there’s nothing inherently wrong with others acknowledging that the headcanon has no basis in canon either, if that makes sense. And headcanons don’t need canon basis! Headcanons are fanon! That’s why they’re so much fun! I ship Kuzaang like there’s no tomorrow, but I can also acknowledge that there wasn’t anything in canon that demonstrated Aang having a crush on Kuzon. Kuzaang is strictly fanon, and I love that about the pairing! It means I have incredible free reign, hehe.

But yeah. I don’t think it has anything to do with their different nations! Like I said - it’s probably solely an issue of some shippers (and undoubtedly just a loud minority) treating the headcanon as canon.

I don’t think saying “Hey, Zuko loved Mai but he was probably looking at Katara and thinking ‘noice!’ a couple of times” is the worst thing in the world, lmao. I do want to make a distinction here, though; this example you provide is actually an example of aesthetic attraction, which is not the same as a crush (crushes are indicative of romantic attraction)! So saying/headcanoning that Zuko thought Katara was pretty (as anyone with a brain would say, let’s be real) does not actually equate to him having a crush on her.

But back to the crush headcanon. I mentioned that I (personally!) don’t think it has canon basis. I will admit that I am not alloromantic, so crushes in themselves are a little confusing to me (I mean,, people just randomly like someone?? based on their appearance?? without even knowing them?? hell nah), but even disregarding that, I don’t think it would make much sense within canon for Zuko to have had a crush on Katara.

Again, disclaimer: there’s nothing wrong with the headcanon! Fanon is meant to contradict canon! To expand canon! To rewrite canon! Fanon is transformative. That’s the entire purpose of fanon. Go wild with that headcanon!! Make art!! Produce fics!! Support content creators!! Hell yeah!!

So what do I mean when I say that I personally feel there’s no canon basis for Zuko having a crush on Katara? Well, for one, he joined the Gaang in episode 12 of Book 3. That’s episode 52 of 61 overall. So in everything prior to that, Zuko not only has no idea who Katara is but he is also neck-deep in imperialistic rhetoric (you know, racism, superiority complexes, all that jazz. not fun for anyone non-FN). No possible crush there. In “The Western Air Temple” episode itself, Katara (understandably) threatens Zuko. She means what she says, and I think Zuko recognizes that. A crush there wouldn’t make sense - they’ve only properly met this second time and Katara (understandably) hates Zuko’s guts for what he’s done to the Gaang and to her personally.

Episode 53 is “The Firebending Masters” - Zuko’s too hung up on his firebending not working to think about anything else (Katara obviously still does not trust him yet, either, meaning Zuko is pretty much on edge around her. again, she threatened him, and Zuko no doubt took her threat seriously).

54 and 55 are “The Boiling Rock” episodes; not only are these Maiko-heavy but also in general… I mean, Katara’s not really in them. At least not from Zuko’s POV. So nothing implies a crush there. And then after those episodes, it’s worth considering that Zuko probably thinks Mai is dead. That he left her, the girl he loves, to die at Azula’s hands. We know Zuko tends to hold guilt to his chest, so concluding he blamed himself for Mai’s “death” is not illogical. Why would he all of sudden switch his sights to Katara, even if it was just a simple crush? While he’s grieving? That doesn’t track to me.

And then, of course, “The Southern Raiders.” This episode has been talked about to death, so I’ll keep it brief, lmao. I will draw attention to only one line, spoken by Zuko:

This isn’t fair! Everyone else seems to trust me now! What is it with you?

As we all know, TSR was not a flattering episode for Zuko. He was a racist asshole to Aang and - as aforementioned - acted as if he was entitled to Katara’s trust. Obviously, Zuko grows through the episode, and we see by the end that he respects Aang’s wisdom and respects Katara’s decision to walk away from Yon Rha (which is awesome!! I adore this brief but incredibly crucial arc of his!!). But my point is that nothing demonstrates romantic interest from Zuko to Katara. If anything, his initial motives are pretty damn selfish (i.e. demanding her to trust him because he feels like he “deserves” it already).

Emphasis on “initial” motives, of course. Obviously he grows more sincere!! (Tis the point of the episode for Zuko.)

So they end TSR on new, peaceful terms. Personally, I don’t think their relationship would be magically sunshine and roses after that (Zuko did some fucked up shit to the Gaang, lmao), but I do think things are getting better between them! Still, there is nothing indicative of a canon crush.

Next episode, in EIP, they scoot away from each other at the possibility of being together, yk? That doesn’t mean they hate each other’s guts, lmfao, but EIP is meant to depict imperialist Fire Nation propaganda - who wouldn’t be uncomfortable with that? Like, the entire Gaang is demeaned in that play. There’s nothing romantic about it. It’s a similar situation later with June - this is a lady that doesn’t know anything remotely personal about Zuko or Katara. Of course they’d react in a horrified and flustered manner when this - for all intents and purposes - total stranger suggests that they’re together! That’s creepy as hell! Definitely not indicative of a crush, lmao. And considering that the Gaang never teases Zuko about having a crush on Katara (compared to how I think Toph teases Katara about Haru?), i.e. the people who know them the best, there’s no reason for the audience to think anything is going on between them.

For other references, here are a few addressing EIP, June, etc.

And after all that… Well, now we’re in the finale. What time is there for romance? There’s a reason the canon couples don’t reunite until after the war is won! (Minus Sukka, I guess, but they’re not professing their love on the battlefield, per se, lmao.) Zuko chooses Katara to go with him because she’s a powerful waterbender and the only person who’s been able to handle Azula in the past (besides Aang, arguably, who’s obviously occupied with Ozai), not because he “likes” her in a romantic sense.

All of this is to say that to me, Zuko having a crush on Katara is strictly fanon. Which is awesome! Fanon is fantastic, and I actually really like these types of headcanons (like, Teo having a crush on Aang? GOOD SHIT). Some people are just jerks about it. That said, I can still understand why people might get frustrated by those who preach this headcanon as if it’s pulled straight from the text itself. I absolutely think it’s ridiculous to harass others over a headcanon (which unfortunately you see on both sides of the ship war), but in that same vein - of course it’s frustrating when those loud few act like their fanon is canon and proceed to shove it down others’ throats, lmao. It’s an imperfect situation, basically.

TL;DR - The headcanon in itself is great, and no one should be getting freaking harassed over it. But it is strictly fanon, so when some shippers treat it like canon, that’s understandably going to frustrate the rest of the fandom. Headcanons are a double-edged sword, lmao.

So that’s my personal theory as to why people get pressed over this headcanon. If anyone else has a different idea, please feel free to rb/comment with it!