#i literally don't have the strength to be embroiled in and think about all these problems 24/7

[ablatheringblatherskite]

↓ thoughts in tags cause I'm not brave enough to say it here

The disappointment I feel when I'm reading a fic and someone mentions Harry Potter without also mentioning that J.K. is transphobic gutter trash and dead to them. Oh, so disappointed.

[lordelmelloi2]

I am kind of glad that I saw your take on the aztec stuff because a lot times people's extreme dislike of it has a habit warpping anything that comes in contact with it deeming all as the same You're like legit the first person who went, yeah these story are great, yeah there narratives are resonate to many people many times over, which makes these cases all the more furstating cause it gets in the way for all sakes purposes by painting the story in a certain light that it's impossible to get rid of.

And that something wholeheartly agree with. Type moon's greatest strength and weakness is it's purity and how it works in it's own internal clockwork. Almost every story is rarely anything phoned in and it's always one guy/gal trying really hard to express something and that such an important to the works. But at the same time it really shows that they don't consult anyone when things are running high which can result in some good and some bad which in seven with the some revealations latter down the line with some characters.

The fact that until relatively recently that they didn't know they had a national audience just shows there lacking self awareness and while everything recently shown they gotten better at it, it doesn't completely help when that eranest shows and it becomes 50/50 how it will turn out. In the end they only way I could see this is slove is someone making effort to expand the internal group with my various opinions but that's like making them actively aware of said issuse of literal brainrot they get.

Yup and that's one of the things that drives me kind of crazy too is like, now they're aware of this massive international audience for their works, people from all corners of the earth and different cultures, and people who like the series who also are like... well, not so embroiled in this anime-manga-otaku culture who Don't think it's right to, for instance, whitewash cultural figures, or include figures from cultures/mythos that Aren't supposed to be depicted (i.e. Wandjina), or understand that constant sexualization of minors is a No-Go in like The Majority Of The World, etc.... and Type Moon is always going to focus itself in on its Otaku market in Japan. So it's always going to try to be appealing to that market demographic first, even if it gives crumbs to, like, female otaku at times.

Which SUCKSSSSS!!! BECAUSE THEY'RE AWAREEEEEEE!!!! OF THE WAY THESE STORIES RESONATE WITH PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THOSE DEMOGRAPHICSSSS!! AND SOMETIMES EVEN THE AUTHORS WILL *WRITE STORIES* THAT HAVE THAT SORT OF MEANING, THAT HAVE THAT SORT OF CONNECTION, THAT GIVE EMPATHY AND COMPASSION TO PEOPLE OF HISTORICALLY OPPRESSED GROUPS... BUT LIKE MANY GACHA THEY'LL ALWAYS BE FOCUSING IN ON THE MALE OTAKU'S WALLET FIRST. And especially when the writing is introducing a lot of cool ideas to explore within a variety of cultures and kind of also exploring how heroes and legends and mythological figures of other cultures may even learn and benefit from knowing each other, and this idea also that like these figures can reconcile with each other even (i.e. like how the Indian Hindu figures have reconciled with each other to a great degree, I think that's a fantastic story idea, especially because they talked and touched on how in the focus of saving greater humanity, there is this sense of -- I think it actually might've been Hector who said it, or something like it -- "if you continue these grudges from when you were alive and don't reconcile, you lose the only family you've got in this place". And it's that suggestion that also family and those you should care about are also people who have been through these same time periods, these same experiences, etc. Chaldea as a story's thesis insists that we need to build community, and focus on communities, and work towards the common goal of saving our planet.

Which, if you're a fan of the Fate series, you'll see them drop political references to socialism and communism and class disparity being an issue -- I mean the political storyline of Case Files alone also focuses in on class disparity being a massive issue as a whole for many people for many reasons -- it generally leans pretty left, and the overall themes and messages it tries to bring forward, that building community and being strong as a community and allowing us to learn from other cultures and perspectives and work towards a greater goal of saving humanity -- that's a message that quite a lot of us really really want to be hearing right now! It's a powerful message that I would argue is probably one of the most motivating factors people can have for continuing to engage with Fate series as a whole. Because so much of this story revolves around that central thesis, of treasuring humanity despite its flaws, and working to preserve humanity and restore it -- in this time of climate crisis, mass government corruption, genocides, etc. -- it's a message that a lot of people hold very dear to their hearts. I'm not saying FGO intrinsically motivates people to lean left, you have to have a brain to be able to understand that and a lot of people just don't engage with FGO's story like that, especially with the added layer of Gacha psychosis manipulation which is their primary way of making money asides from merchandise (another one of FGO's contradictory practices). But FGO does encourage people to look at other cultures and other peoples with empathy and understanding. It encourages you to learn about history, to learn about these historical figures, why they did what they did, what impact they had on society. If nothing else Fate series succeeds at encouraging people to learn about history and culture, and you don't have to have a Ph.D to see the ways that people have gotten involved more after learning about figures through FGO.

That's exactly why I think it's so difficult for people to just up and walk away from it. Because even if FGO mishandles it, it still opens up that opportunity for people to learn about it. Quite frankly -- I'm not saying it's good that FGO implemented Wandjina, for instance, but without that implementation, people in this fan space wouldn't also have been motivated to research and say "Hey, this is actually inaccurate, and not a great representation" and for us as fans that care also to share that information, and learn about Australian Aboriginal nations and their cultures, and why FGO fucked up so badly with this character implementation. Because we have this community of people who care about history and culture and mythos that we have built over the years. I think the fan spaces that are full of people who really care about the cultures that they come from being represented well, people who also are eager to talk about their cultures and histories and share it with others, or to praise when something IS represented well in Fate and given respect, is also another big reason why people don't leave Fate series. Because a lot of people really, really care. And the overall themes of Fate series encourage people to care about history, and culture, and to share it with people, and to educate people and get people engaged with their cultures, through these characters -- whether well-represented or not. I see it all the time with people making jokes about like, Tlaloc is literally Mexico City/Tenochtitlan, what does that mean for her in modern times? Oh, her and Tezcatlipoca are having Modelos with us, etc. Or people sometimes make jokes and posts about Hassans celebrating Ramadan or Eid-al-Fitr, and while I don't enjoy the way the female Hassans especially have been depicted, I think it's still fun to show people, hey, we are Muslim and we do this, here's Hassan picking out some sweets to have for early morning Suhoor.

Again, to reinforce -- I'll never denigrate someone or denounce someone leaving FGO because it depicted their culture poorly. There's many things that even I myself kind of have moments where I'm like, ... honestly the new Muslim character in Ordeal Call and the way people in certain corners of fate fan spaces treat him drives me up the fucking wall. Like that's an example of one way where I just feel like "yeah I just totally don't even want to engage with that at all, I'll redesign him probably, maybe if I'm lucky that redesign catches on," etc. You know what I mean? And I'll never denigrate anyone for leaving FGO because the gacha psychosis got too strong. I left FGO for like a year or so and played on-and-off because I spent a gazillion dollars on Waver and never got him, it took me a long ass time to get over that psychosis, and I even still have gacha psychosis issues with like, Kama, who I still haven't rolled to this day.

But I think it's pertinent to recognize why people don't totally denounce FGO in the capacity that other gacha games receive flak for. Fate is a very long running series, and the authors take Fate Grand Order to be another connected massive story in the run of all the other massive stories in Fate series. To be a long-time fate fan and ignore everything happening in FGO, and still have an understanding of the lore, of character development, etc... it's... just not possible. It's not possible to ignore FGO entirely in the grand scheme of being a Fate series fan who is engaged with the story and narratives. I think that if anything, because of these themes and narratives, we should be more demanding, we should ask for better effort, and we should point out issues where they arise, because Fate's themes already insist upon a higher standard -- and we, as fans that care, are the ones to hold them to it, as best as we can, and to do the best we can to insist upon better treatment.

[ukaiknowsbest]

i know i am 6 years too late in replying to this post by @gintamajustaway but if i may add my 2 cents here even if the original anon wasn't even talking about Silver Soul Arc yet.

Personally I was surprised by the Otae's lack of action in Silver Soul arc. She often got overshadowed by Sarutobi, Tsukuyo, Pirako and Kyuubei when they arrived. However it got me thinking that Otae's main purpose in silver soul arc was mainly leading the defense and protecting/leading the other cabaret girls until the end. I did wish to see more of her martial prowess but I also get that the safety of the cabaret girls was her top priority and she couldn't just swing her naginata recklessly like the rest of the fighters.

It was then I realized that Otae and Shinpachi almost seem to have similar roles as being the "weaker" fighters in the company of experts/monsters such as Kagura, Gintoki, Sarutobi, Tsukuyo and Kyuubei. think about it:

Kagura is a one man army,

Gintoki was literally a war general,

Sarutobi is the vice commander of the Oniwabanshu, the shogunate's main protectors

Tsukuyo is the general of citizen's army for the dangerous red light district

Kyuubei is the heir of one of the most trusted samurai clans of the shogunate and basically leads their own private army

Pirako is the heir to the biggest yakuza factions in kabukichou

Shinpachi and Otae, while strong in their own right and during peace time don't hold as much power and prestige as the rest.

The Shimuras are basically backwater samurais just like Kondou's Shinsengumi. Given time and enough experience it wouldn't be a stretch for Otae to develop her female army into killing machines just like how kondou/hijikata had years to develop the shinsengumi into a formidable police force. Bottomline is Otae's real skill is in leadership and defense. I bet she was the one who hastily gave crash courses in naginata techniques to the rest of the cabaret girls who should not even have any combat experience in the first place. Otae was the only expert leading amateur naginata corps and she had to make sure all of them were safe. More than anything, she had to keep a cool head at all times and desperately hold on until reinforcements came. Otae's strength isn't in combat but it is in being a general in the last line of defense. I think she's basically Otose's protege of some sort. Remember how Otose acted more like a Matsudaira's counterpart in organizing/planning the guerilla tactics that kabukichou people participated in. Otae played similar roles to Saigo and the Yakuza boss in her own way. Gintama is a shonen anime and it is normal for people to be bedazzled by fancy intense fight scenes and long winded speeches. Hence we can understand Tsukuyo and Kyuubei's intense popularity. However what I don't see being discussed often is how Gintama has such an excellent depiction of war. It has got vanguards, rear guards, cavalry, scouts, supply and logistics, baggage train, guerilla warfare, pillaging, looting, reinforcements, negotiations, diplomatic endeavors, court/political drama, destabilization, paying off tribute and sht, the list goes on.

What I'm trying to say is that Otae and the rest of kabukichou represents one aspect of war, which is the normal citizens fighting back with what little they can offer. They're the real victims that got embroiled in senseless war. They're as important as the war general and leaders who're usually the ones who make it into history books.

Moreover, In historical wars, losing the baggage train (which consist of soldiers' families, belongings, loots, mobile home, lives) is one of the most devastating things that can happen and have caused loss of morale and desertion throughout the centuries. Edo/Kabukichou is the gang's metaphorical "baggage train" and "country they want to return". Otae's real purpose is being part of the last defense for this home. It fits her and Otose's character the most, being the place everyone is trying to protect and can come home to. I think that is pretty profound.

EDIT 11/22/2021 I only found out a few days ago that IN THE MANGA the other cabaret girls with Otae in Four Devas arc were equipped with brooms, not naginatas. In Silver Sour Arc, only Otae was armed, while the Cabaret girls didn't bring any weapons. This continues to drive home my point. Otae was the only available Naginata user helping Kabukichou. That makes the success of her leadership towards the cabaret girls in times of strife and war much crazier.