#i just don't think cass forgiving jason is really that big a deal to either cass OR jason tbh

[casscainmainly]

so cass can easily forgive a child killer but not kate or jason?

I'm not an expert on the Kate incident (I'm currently reading that run, haven't gotten to that yet) so this reply will stick to Cass and Jason. My previous post was specifically about Jason anyway - a different person would necessitate a different post. Anyhow, it's not so much the substance of the killings itself as the person's attitude to it - as I said in my previous post, Cass can forgive killers, as long as the killer themself has repented and wants to change. That's why I said the onus would be on Jason: Cass is willing to give people a chance, but the person has to want that chance first.

I understand where you're coming from with this question, but the point of my post was that in fandom discussions, too often it's Cass who has to compromise her morality in order to 'get along' with Jason. This just isn't in line with how Cass is portrayed throughout most of her publication history, where she has arguably the most strict moral sense in the family. Moreover, I think this is a disservice to Jason - I don't think he would really care if Cass 'forgave' him, as long as he feels he is doing right. Cass doesn't owe Jason forgiveness, and Jason doesn't necessarily need it, either.

Again, it depends on Jason. If he shows remorse for his murders (and gives up killing entirely and irrevocably) Cass could for sure get along with him. If this is your interpretation of Jason (which has some canon precedence), then yeah, Cass would forgive him! However, against a pro-killing interpretation of Jason, I doubt Cass would be the first to budge.

[incoherentbabblings]

What fanon interpretations of DC characters do you dislike and which ones do you like (if you like any)?

I don't read much DC fanfic anymore I have to say, so I may be utterly missing some of the more prevalent ones...

I don't mind fanon where it's based around hobbies or interests? It's a real sticking point for some, but I genuinely don't mind it.

I know it's pretty much canon now, but for example Cass being into theatre and dance. I like that one. And Tim being into photography is one I don't mind at all either, in fact I use it a lot in my own writing. So yeah, let Jason be really into books for instance, beyond just... Knowing the plot to Three Musketeers. I don't think they are a net negative at all for the characters. It's just a hobby or interest - something for people to relate to outside of the supeheroing.

I'm... Very picky for Tim fics. If there's angst for Tim to cry about it better be a self inflicted crisis rather than anything than his family have done to him. He can cry and be miserable and depressed - of course he can - but I'd rather it was about things that had happened to others (to show his compassion) or a right old mess he'd managed to get himself into (to show his bullheadedness). Rather than 'my parents never truly loved me' or 'damian/jason are cruel to me and dick/bruce are just allowing it to happen'.

Tell you one thing though, I wish fanon made a bigger deal out of his more manic episodes (that aren't motivated by sleep deprivation or coffee I should qualify). I know it's more of a New 52 onwards thing, but Tim's mood has been shown to have very big highs along with quite bad lows, I think it would be interesting if people explored that more.

The one I think we all struggle with, readers and writers both, is having the supporting batfam characters pop up, and they only exist to prop up the pov or opinion of the fic's main characters. I think Dick, Cass, Steph and Duke suffer the worst from this. For the sake of a) not having the time and space to make room for more conflict or b) just not caring about them enough, disputes or clashing opinions or ideologies are hammered into being flat. So, for example, Dick being placid and very easy going and the perfect big brother, Cass having anything to do with Jason when he's still on a 'is murder ethical' debate, Steph and Duke just being there to rack up numbers or to have them be blandly optimistic or snarky about shenanigans.

I think in those instances, it's okay to cut the supporting characters. You don't need to include everyone just for the sake of ticking boxes I think. Like I say however, this is something I do myself from time to time. You need a character to come in and say/do something to move the plot along and you just have to go with one the audience is already familiar with. So... Catch-22 that one I think.

What else... Um... I guess then it just turns into my personal preferences. Steph is a lot softer and quieter than people give her credit for. I like Dick to still be a couple of levels above his siblings in any given topic, since he has a decade's experience on most of them. I don't mind Bruce being depicted as a good or bad dad, but I can't stand fics which look at a canon instance of his being abhorrent, and try to justify it or have other characters forgive him for it. Not until that conversation happens in canon I say. There should be more Duke and Cass fics because he understands her the best (sorry Tim and Steph).

Though - favourite fanon? Anything that exaggerates or emphasises Damian and Dick's parent child dynamic. I have to say, that's one I'm a right sucker for.

Which ones do you guys like/loathe? Are there ones I missed that you think are the worst?

[dickie-gayson]

SHENANIGANS

DUKE VS THE SUN AND DICK’S HAREM OF OLDER MEN

Summary: After a rough night on patrol, Duke just wants the sun to go away. In trying to do so, he manages to drive Dick up the wall about his harem of older men.

Otherwise known as: In which Duke is too stubborn to just move his seat and Dick is in serious denial.

Characters: Duke Thomas, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Damian Wayne, Tim Drake, Cassandra Cain, Luke Fox, Stephanie Brown, Harper Row

Genre: Family, Humor

Length: 4k+

Other: Just a funny, nonsense fic (that was only supposed to be like 1k wtf) i tried to give everyone speaking parts w./o making it too confusing. Dialogue Heavy.

Find It On: Ao3 Fanfiction 

All was quiet in Wayne Manor as the sun sat high in the sky. Such a thing was not odd for the mostly nocturnal family. Today, however, was a special occasion. The previous night's patrol had been somewhat strenuous for the patrolling bats and birds, and as such, they were given a day to unwind and recover from the fatigue. Naturally, after crashing for a few hours, the members started to slowly rise and shuffle about, none-too-happy about being conscious, but alas, they were never known to maintain a healthy sleep schedule. There was always something more important to be done, even on a 'day off'. A day off in the Batfamily was really just another way of saying 'paperwork and investigation day'.

Duke slumped at the absurdly long dinner table with a loud, beleaguered groan, as if the sheer act of being conscious was a great torment of some form. Slowly, deep brown eyes rose and squinted at the window that let sunshine wash across the room. It almost looked as if the force of his glare alone could close the curtains. There was a soul-deep hatred one could only get after being put through hell and having to stave off the sweet embrace of slumber for more work. That, or being so incredibly hung-over and being forced to attend a third-graders school concert. It was almost impressive, really, how much it seemed that the sun itself personally offended him.

Another person walked into the dining room, loudly munching on their choice of breakfast (and wouldn't you know that's the only sound they made?). Duke was still getting used to living in a house full of goddamn ninjas. He purposefully ignored the person as they drew closer, in no mood to converse. Really, all he wanted to do was curl up and sleep off the rough night he had. That, and throw the sun in the fucking trash because nothing had the right to be that bright and cheery when he felt like he went twenty rounds with Troia.

His attempts to ignore the person were rendered useless as yet another person entered the room and he just knew shit was going to go down. No more than two (2) Bats can be in a room together without some sort of catastrophe going on. It's like a scientific law at this point. He let out another melodramatic sigh and let his head drop to the table with a 'thud'. Then, he winced and groaned again as his headache increased just a bit from the unnecessary abuse.

"Aww, what's wrong baby bird? Long night?"

That soul-penetrating glare was leveled to the owner of the teasing, baby voice. An amused smirk is what met his eyes. Of course, it'd be Jason ready to fuck with him. He was pretty sure the oldest Batkids didn't sleep. Ever. And that they had some unnatural ability to bounce back from the worst situations like goddamn bouncy balls. Duke wasn't fully convinced they weren't secret metahumans. Just last week he caught Tim trying hang-glide with one broken arm so he could meet up with Kon at four in the morning for waffles or some equally dumb shit. And then there was the time Dick walked out of an exploding building while he was on fire and just laughed about it. Duke was almost positive there was some amount of mental trauma at the very least, given all their head and non-physical injuries.

"What is wrong with all of you?"

There was no true venom behind the words; just the understandable irritation of a kid who got clotheslined by some ugly dude in an even uglier suit at two in the morning. Jason just laughed and Dick chuckled around his spoon of probably overly sugary cereal. Great, he had the two oldest to deal with. He could already feel his desire to leap out the window rising. At least he wasn't going to get beat up by a thirteen-year-old again, that's a plus.

"Before or after the Crowbar Incident? You want a list? I bet I have more problems than Dickhead."

At that, Dick gave a derogative snort and flicked some of his cereal at Jason, who dodged it. The bit managed to hit Duke in the forehead and his glare just narrowed just a bit more at the older vigilantes. Jason pointed and laughed as the piece slowly slid and plopped onto Duke's lap.

"I'm going to go out and spit on your grave."

The oldest hero laughed loudly at Duke's irritation. He had to put his bowl on the table and steady himself at the affronted look plastered on the formerly dead man's face.

"Wow, Duke, tell me how you really feel."

It was still odd, adjusting to joking about some of them having died before. But, as he learned over time, they loved bringing it up in every situation. Mostly Jason, if he were being honest. Duke was still too scared to bring it up to Cass and Damian. Cass was too nice and also fucking scary, and Damian already beat the ever-loving hell out of him once. He did not want a repeat, thanks.

The cloud formerly hiding the sun for just a bit finally passed and Duke was, once more, hit full force with the rays of the sun. His look of intense hatred was once more turned to the offending light. Without turning his angered stare from the window, he spoke up.

"Dick, call your leather daddy."

He didn't need to turn to know the eldest just choked on his food and was trying to hack it up from the wrong tube. Jason, meanwhile, was absolutely dying. Duke shifted to glance at the two. The younger of the two ex-Robins had one hand on his knee and was pointing at Dick with his free hand, laughing obnoxiously. Meanwhile, the older was glaring, face red from just having choked on Crocky Crunch.

"Shut up, Jason. And what do you mean 'leather daddy'. I don't have a leather daddy."

Just to irritate him, Jason laughed louder. The laughter seemed to have drawn others in, because Tim slipped in, looking just shy of actually dead. Behind him was Cass, looking graceful as ever. How she did it, he'd never know. Tim looked at the scene with mild suspicion, not that Duke could blame him. There was always a fifty-fifty shot that someone laughing at another member was bad. Cass just looked entertained. Her ability to read a situation so quickly was as unnerving as it was awesome.

"Why does Jason look like he's about to pass out? Did they break out the mullet pictures again?"

Dick turned his glare to Tim.

"Not you too! There were no mullet pictures this time! Jason's laughing because he's dumb."

Jason wiped a pretend tear as he straightened up slightly.

"Wrong, Dickface. I'm laughing because Duke is my new favorite brother."

Duke just looked at him with mild confusion. Tim seemed to mirror his look, though there was a bit more skepticism. Sometimes Duke still marveled at just how much like Bruce the other was. Did they teach 'paranoia' classes here or something? Was it like a required trait when being adopted by the big bad Bat? You had to be at least level 5 in either Paranoia, Nerd, or Athlete to join their cosplay group. Dick was staring at Jason as if just said the Riddler was the new fashion icon.

"That makes no sense Jason, but no surprise here. Also, why is he your favorite? He threatened to spit on your grave!"

Jason just raises an eyebrow in response. Duke wished he could do that.

"Yeah? And he didn't wear a rainbow polka-dot shirt with high-waisted jeans and dad loafers. Not to mention you had The Mullet at the time."

Duke couldn't help but let out the disgusted sound at the mental imagery. Tim visibly shuttered and even Cass looked at Dick with something akin to mild horror. Dick just put his head in his hands.

"Why? Why am I stuck with you all? Where's Damian, I need someone in my corner."

The words basically fell on deaf ears as Duke was still marveling over the atrocious mess that was Dick Grayson's fashion choices. How the man got voted the Most Eligible Bachelor and posted up as a part-time model when he was strapped for cash, Duke would never know. You could tell he grew up in a circus from the way he dressed. Not that Duke would ever say that because it felt like a really douche thing to say and he didn't want to get suplexed by the eldest. If he didn't stand a chance against Damian, he would get demolished by Dick. The guy had more fighting experience than most heroes in the business. So, for that, he could forgive his fashion crimes. But that didn't mean he forgot what he's been trying to get Dick to do before everyone derailed the conversation. Duke snapped his fingers for attention.

"Hello? Leather daddy? Call him."

Jason started to chuckle all over again, and Tim let out a startled sort of laugh, caught off-guard by the words. Dick let out an aggravated breath. Duke could see Cass laughing silently behind her hand as she watched the idiocy unfold.

"For the last time Duke, I do NOT have a leather daddy! And why do you need Midnighter, anyway?'

Everyone went dead quiet for a moment before Jason roared with laughter, almost on the floor at this point. Even Tim was having trouble remaining standing. He needed to lean on Cass to stay upright. He wheezed out between laughs.

"Oh my god, Dick. You just- He never said it was Midnighter."

Dick's face turned an interesting deep crimson, which was still frustratingly handsome. Duke didn't think it was fair, really. When he got embarrassed, he looked something like a frightened chipmunk.

"I...Uh...He's the only one I hang out with that wears leather and you guys tease me about."

Now, Duke was no expert or anything, but he was pretty sure if Jason didn't start breathing soon, he was going to pass out from lack of oxygen. Being that he was too indisposed to speak, Tim had the honors of filling in for him in the 'irritate Dick Grayson' category.

"Bullshit, we keep a list."

Somewhere between the stunned look on the veteran hero's face and the surprising snort of laughter that came from Cass, Luke entered the fray. He looked around the group warily. Good instincts. While Luke was busy eating his apple and surveying the scene, Dick managed to recompose himself. He narrowed his bright eyes in distrust.

"A list?"

After a noisy bite, Luke spoke up, not content with being left out of the loop.

"A list of what?"

From somewhere near the floor, Jason managed to choke out between panting breaths.

"Dick's sugar daddies."

"Ahh, that list. You add Raptor to it yet?"

Duke slammed his hands down on the table, catching their undivided attention. The sun was hitting him just right and it was annoying as all hell. He wondered if he could convince Superman to move the sun. Or the manor. He wasn't picky.

"Focus! I'm the one with the issue here! Call up your scary leather boyfriend and tell him to bring his boyfriend here."

Dick's gaze only grew more suspicious as he eyed up Duke.

"Why do you need Apollo?"

Tim snorted and faux-whispered to Steph, who had shown up with Harper and Barbara in the time that Duke was ranting.

"He didn't even try to deny being Midnighter's other boyfriend."

If one looked closely, they could almost see a vein in Dick's head throbbing like some sort of cartoon.

"Shut. up."

Duke, in a show of almost supernatural willpower, managed to ignore them and press on with his own devastating issues. Really, they should be paying full attention to his issue. He was the new kid and this was serious.

"I need Apollo here...so I can punch him."

His voice had been so calm and serious that it actually garnered incredulous stares. Dick had to take a moment to himself out of surprise. Luke just looked at Duke with something close to disbelief.

"Wha- Why do you want to punch Apollo? You've never met him. Also, he's super-powered, my dude."

Duke gave a flat, dead-serious stare.

"I know, I don't care. I want to punch him."

This time, it was Harper who piped up.

"But why?"

"Well, I can't feasibly go outside and punch the sun, now can I?"

Dick finally seemed to recollect himself, because he took back the reigns of the conversation.

"You...want me to call Midnighter."

"Yes."

"So he can bring Apollo."

"Yep."

"So you can punch Apollo."

"Correct."

"Because you can't punch the sun?"

"You got it."

There was another beat of silence. Then, Dick decided to break it with possibly the most somber voice Duke's ever heard come from the man.

"...Duke, what, and I mean this as nicely as possible, the fuck?"

"Listen, it makes perfect sense. Back me up, Tim. You're the smart one here. I can't fight the sun, but I can fight the guy who is based on the Sun God."

It looked as if Tim was actually debating the merits of the plan when Damian spoke up. The newest addition to the batclan nearly had a goddamn heart attack because he had not seen or heard Damian come in. He eyed up the smaller boy warily.

"Wrong. You can get decimated by the guy who is based on a Sun God. Because that is exactly what will happen if you attempt to fight him, Thomas."

"Hey, all I need is one hit and I'll feel better."

At the disparaging scoff that came from Luke, Duke shot him a Look. It wasn't quite to the Bat-level yet, but he was working on it. Hey, he was pretty proud of his Look so far. It scared a few of the baddies. He'll get there one day. At the moment, however, Luke just gave him a smirk back and spoke.

"Man, you'll feel a helluva lot worse, I bet. Not only would you be fighting a superhuman, but the superhuman's angry superhuman boyfriend."

Steph piped in with a look of exaggerated and obviously fake confusion on her face.

"Dick isn't a superhuman, though."

Dick let out a frustrated growl, clearly having fallen for the bait. Steph just smiled in satisfaction.

"He meant Midnighter! I am not dating Apollo!"

"Right, you're just dating M. Who's dating Apollo."

"For fuck's sake. I'm not dating either of them!"

If Dick got any more aggravated, Duke was betting his hair would either start turning white or just fall right out. He was mentally betting on falling out. A Luthor-style Dick would be hilarious. Meanwhile, Harper figured now would be a good time to join in on the 'irritate the oldest' bonding moment they were having.

"Yeah, he's clearly dating that one angry dude who worked with him when he was a super spy or some shit."

Babs gave an entertained look to Harper at the words. She seemed to be having the time of her life messing with her ex. The look in her eyes made Duke mentally remind himself not to piss her off anytime soon.

"You mean Tiger?"

"Yeah, that's the one."

"NO I'M NOT!"

He had to idly wonder where Bruce and Alfred were. They were being obnoxiously loud for being bats. Dick looked like his head was going to pop, either from aggravation or embarrassment, and the rest were having a blast. 'Nothing like family bonding over dragging a sibling.' Jason finally seemed to come out of his laughter-induced coma.

"Duh, if Dickie were smashing anyone, it'd be Constantine."

The look of sheer incredulity on Dick's face was priceless. Duke would admit this one threw him for a loop. He's heard of the tricky magic-user who sold his soul however many times. But, he's never heard of the Brit liking Dick. Not that it'd be a surprise. Duke could probably throw a rock in any direction and hit someone who wanted to bone the original Robin.

"What the hell? John Constantine? Where did that even come from?!"

Jason just gave him a serious, flat look.

"He totally has the hots for you."

Babs gave a sage nod, as if nothing truer had ever been spoken. Even Luke gave a sound of agreement. Dick couldn't help but look at them in surprise.

"No, he does not. Where did you hear that?"

"I heard it from Kyle who heard it from Simon. Apparently, during a meeting of some form where he was with John, John wouldn't stop talking 'bout how much of a beefcake you are."

"Oh my God, just end my life already. For real this time."

Tim snapped his fingers, as if remembering something.

"Oh yeah! I heard about that! It was the talk of the Watchtower for a bit there."

At this point, Dick had his head in his hands once more and looked ready to resign from life in general.

"I hate you. I hate you all."

Duke cleared his throat and waved his arms to garner their attention.

"Guys, we're getting off track. We can talk about Dick's Harem of Older Men later. I have a sun to punch."

"I do NOT have a Harem of Older Men! Where do you guys get this information?!"

The joined 'siblings' shared a look. The fact that this might have been discussed before left a look of true horror on the first Boy Wonder's face. Duke apparently hadn't been around long enough to enjoy these sessions. He wasn't sure whether he should be pleased or disappointed about that fact. Cass started ticking off sources, much to Dick's shock.

"Other heroes. Villains. Oracle. Watching you and enemies. Very obvious."

Babs looked from her successor to Dick with a growing look of amusement.

"They're not wrong. We're keeping a tally on who's in the Dick Grayson Older Men Fan Club. Fifty bucks say you get a new member in the next two months."

"There is no fan club."

Tim shook his head, as if saddened that Dick couldn't accept the obvious. Steph was having a ball needling Dick.

"There totally is. Slade's the president, M's the treasurer, Thomas Wayne Jr. is the VP, Constan-'

At that, Duke shot the blonde a look of confusion. He was still going through the list of criminal profiles and hadn't made it to that name yet. It was the fact that he recognized the name Thomas Wayne as Bruce's father that caught his attention.

"Wait, Thomas Wayne Jr.? Who the hell is that?"

Steph, as if realizing that not everyone gathered witnessed whatever fuckery brought the man around, took pity on Duke and explained just a little.

"Oh, Bruce's older brother from an alternate universe or some shit. Evil. Totally has a hard on for Dick, anyway-'

"That's so fucked up, man."

He marveled yet again over the sheer level of absurdity this family went through on a near daily basis. And he willingly submerged himself into it. Great.

"GUYS! SHUT UP! THERE IS NO HAREM OR FAN CLUB.-'

"I think we established that there is."

'-SLADE IS DEFINITELY NOT THE PRESIDENT-'

"Oh, please, he liked invented your fan club."

'-AND BRUCE'S BROTHER DOESN'T HAVE THE HOTS FOR ME."

"Yeah, cus just anyone goes to an alternate universe to stalk the alternate version of their old partner and kidnap them to keep them."

"That is NOT what went down."

"Suuuuure."

Duke really didn't want to think about ANY of that for more than three seconds, because honestly, what the in the fresh hell. How is Dick alive with that many crazy creeps after him? If it were Duke, he probably would have just hung up the tights and called it a day. He does not need whacked out assassins after his ass, no thanks. Shaking his head, as if it'd rid him of disturbing images of way-too-tight suits and creepy old men, he spoke up. Duke still hasn't gotten to punch the overly cheerful ball in the sky or its metahuman counterpart. This is unbelievable. Bats got shit done except when he needed to beat someone up.

"DICK. Bring your boyfriend's boyfriend here! I need to hit him! This shit is too bright. Gotham ain't ever this bright, what the fuck."

"Oh, for the love of- Duke, if you want to hit someone, go punch Jason."

At that moment, Damian shoved his way to the front and center of Dick's view. There was a look of disgust and irritation scrunched up on his otherwise adorable features. Duke subtly (or tried to be subtle) scooted back from the duo. That look meant he was unhappy. And if it was involving his precious oldest brother/father-figure, Duke was not getting in the middle of that. He wasn't suicidal, despite what his late-night activities might suggest.

"Grayson, we need to discuss this harem of older men dedicated to you."

Dick took a deep breath and tried to appear calm for the youngest of the family. He gave the boy a patient look that only came with years of practice.

"Damian, there is no harem, they're being dumb."

Clearly, that wasn't the answer the young hero was looking for. He gave one of his infamous little tongue clicks and rolled his eyes.

"That isn't new knowledge. However, I have seen and heard things that would coincide with their stories. I do not approve."

Just like that, Dick's calm facade shattered. Honestly, he was impressed it held for even half of the sentence.

"I swear to god, there is no harem. There isn't even a fan club. None that I've heard of, at any rate."

Damian merely gave a contemplative hum. There was that look in his eyes. You know, the look of a Bat who just became obsessed with a case. It was almost worrying because Duke was positive the kid was going to take this way too seriously.

"I need find this 'fan club' and dismantle it before they attempt anything."

Jason was practically vibrating in his seat in an attempt to hold in his raucous laughter. This was clearly the best day he's had in a while.

"That's right, baby bat! Go get 'em! They're out to steal our precious big bird."

Dick shot him the patented 'Batglare', though years of exposure lessened the effects to the smartass vigilante.

"Do NOT encourage him, Jason."

It was obvious Jason heard him, but he pretended not to and merely kept his attention solely on the youngest Robin. Tim, seeing this as a wondrous and golden opportunity to fuck with Damian, pitched in his two-cents.

"In fact, I think you should join the fan club. Work your way up the ranks, like a sort of double agent, and then bring them all down."

"Hmm...this plan has merit, even if it's coming from Drake."

"Thanks, Dami."

Jason scoffed from his position against the table.

"He only wants to join for the t-shirt."

"Tt, no. If I wanted any Grayson merchandise, I could simply go to the dollar store and buy something. I need to ensure that these...miscreants have nothing nefarious planned. Grayson often leaves himself open in such stupid ways around them."

"Excuse me? I do not. And for the last damn time...you know what? Never mind, have fun trying to find this imaginary club. And you,-'

He pointed directly at Duke, the one who started this whole thing. Duke just gave him a squinted look, still waiting for him to call Midnighter for him.

'have fun trying to fist fight something that would destroy your ass. I'm out."

With that, the eldest stalked out of the room, having hit his quota for irritation and insults for the day. Though, Luke managed to slip one more in before he was out of hearing range.

"Try not to pick up any more older men while you're out!"

"FUCK OFF!"

There was a moment of silence in which they all just kind of reveled in the shared amusement. Then, Duke turned his squint to Tim as the sun still burned his retinas.

"Hey Tim, you think you can call Superboy?"