#i don't think this is discourse really because truly I'm just chewing my food here

[ariadne-mouse]

I keep coming back to like, if the entire point of Ludinus & BH's plan here was only to prevent a second mass destruction event like Calamity - the gods being too big to fight with each other without mass collateral damage, and having the ability to wipe out a city like Aeor - then I could see there being a logic in "the gods gotta go, one way or another", setting aside the possibility of mortals to once more develop that same power as Aeor did in the Malleus Factorum, and notably, that we don't know if the BH Third Option will be an effective de-powering of the gods themselves in perpetuity, since it's unclear what will happen to their divinity, how permanent the transformation would be, or what Predathos might do (stay as a presence in a Vessel as insurance? be released and stay on its own? be released and go, taking the threat against the gods with it?). But again, setting all that aside, I can see the logic of looking at the Calamity and going "we must prevent this from recurring at all costs", and not trusting that the gods will never reach the unanimity break the divine gate, and the story digging into the ethics of ends and means. Sorry, gods, you're just too big to be here - shrink or GTFO. (Note if this is the case, this would/should also apply to the Titans if they were still in play, as they have the same widescale destructive capacity.)

But Ludinus and BH also heavily cite more day-to-day systemic oppressions and inequalities among the world of mortals, perpetrated *by* mortals. The power of temples, the intrusion of worshippers on communities like Hearthdell, and otherwise the presence of gods-based religion in all facets of life creating unequal outcomes. Now, I tend to agree with meta positing that we didn't get a strong narrative of gods-based religion being the hegemonic power in Exandria, only that, like other power structures from, say, governments - it exists and can be used for good or ill, with disagreements about what "good" and "ill" are. But Ludinus certainly wasn't spending any time trying to make the Empire's government more agnostic or materially improve the lives of the common people there or anywhere else, despite his vast influence (and he maintained allies like Ikithon, whose idea of a youth enrichment program was the Volstruckers). Critically, the idea that his or BH's plan will effect systemic mortal change hinges on the gods' fate changing the power of their followers, who comprise the presence of gods-based religion on Exandria itself, and these situations where inequality is indicated.

However, we also don't yet know exactly how the gods taking any of the 3 choices - become mortal, run, be eaten - will materially effect divine power that is wielded by mortals. Maybe it will change, maybe it will diminish either permanently or temporarily, maybe it will be the same with the rationale it is powered by mortal faith as opposed to some intrinsic god-stuff. We just don't know yet. Moreover, even if the powers vanished, the faith and the associated sociopolitical structures might remain. It feels like a gap in logic to me which weakens the conviction of the road BH are taking now, and tempers the triumph that this is the "best" solution, because it's still unclear how it addresses the actual problem statement of "no more Calamity AND no more inequality among mortals from gods-religion".

One aspect I didn't touch upon above is that of answering prayers and granting boons, which sort of sits in the middle between the gods' own power and what mortals wield, and is part of the tapestry of the gods' influence in mortal life. Ludinus's plan to kill the gods did follow that any sort of "favoritism" would no longer be in play, but the BH Third Option is less clear on that. It is certainly possible that the gods will become unable to answer any prayer or grant any boon in the same fashion they might have before, and this would very literally remove the issue of "unequally answered prayers" for a measure of that concept: all phone lines are down, no one gets to make a call. But neither Ludinus's plan nor BH's would necessarily solve situations like Bor'dor's, where his mother took on the punishment intended for him believing that her faith in Melora would protect her - or at least would not be a linear "this kind of thing definitely won't happen anymore" because mothers protecting their children and faith in optimal outcomes are not solely the providence of religion, nor is imperfect access to power and safety. The kid Bor'dor accidentally harmed was rich, and this informed the severity of the punishment/lack of forgiveness - there is a very local class struggle aspect there which the gods played no part in, and which their removal would not prevent.

The BH Third Option may be appealing in its potential bloodlessness, but it's also so recent and zoomed out that BH themselves haven't fully revisited what more specific problems they are actually trying to solve, and the story on the way there hasn't scaffolded sufficiently to make it clear. Perhaps there is a narrative to be told in BH taking action despite uncertainty - "we don't know that this will change anything or everything but we have to try" - but that is still weakened by the insufficient exploration of religious hegemony in everyday life, and in BH themselves not solidifying their trajectory of intent earlier (in either direction!) even if their means were uncertain. Like, there is absolutely a version of this whole thing which could have better supported the rationale to shake the etch-a-sketch, whether framing it as "right" or "justified" or even just "logical" from a character-driven arc perspective, but just that's not quite what we've gotten, nor does it seem to be explicitly about about making a desperate and imperfect choice. It's somewhere in the muddy middle.

Anyway, I find it interesting to try and follow these throughlines - and very eager to see what happens next, because it will help define some of these ramifications more clearly, which will absolutely make for a fascinating end of C3 and C4 world state whatever they are. I'm here for it! I'm also still enjoying the show, enjoy BH as characters, etc, all of that, if that need be stated. I will say - this is all certainly taking a chance and rolling the dice!

[shanie]

Shanie,

I just read your tags on the 'Food Poll' and I'm so curious - What is some of the strange food that you've eaten?

<3 - Mitch

Oh geez. Well, first of all, I'm on my phone so if there are any weird spelling stuff that's why.

Ok, so even as a kid I always wanted to eat the weird foods. Liver was one of my favorite meals. I once went to a restaurant in Arizona and immediately wanted the rattlesnake. (It tastes like chewy chicken.) I kept begging my parents for gator bites in Florida but that one they would never let me have. Still salty about that. They let me try oysters and I loved them and clams were a staple of my diet as a kid as were mussels and calamari

When I got older I still kept experimenting. I became addicted to sushi and some of my favorite types are squid, octopus, and eel. I have tried sea urchin and that one I don't like. I've tried many forms of fish eggs and honestly my liking them depends on the quality and size. I once tried a raw quail egg and while the flavor was fine I wasn't a fan of the texture and would rather try them again cooked.

I love exotic fruits. Dragonfruit is my favorite fruit but I prefer the white fleshed ones best. Horned melon is tasty but not my favorite. I love passion fruit and star fruit and I legit wanna try durian but you can't get it here. Also, I want to try Jackfruit but I don't know how to fix it.

One really interesting "food" I've had is sugarcane. Went to a sugarcane plantation once. They let us have some to chew on. It was pretty cool.

Let's see, what else. Uhh... I've started discourse before because my favorite type of pizza is chicken ranch with mushrooms and broccoli. Apparently people think that's weird. I have a friend who kept "tricking" me into eating weird foods and never understood when I told him I would have eaten them anyway. He fed me all sorts of stuff from squirrel to tongue. I've had soooo much venison, I've had bear, I've had elk, I've had turtle, I love lamb... I could never be vegan.

Speaking of that the only cheese I've ever met I didn't like was wensleydale. Everything else I will consume like a beast and one of these days I will try limburger, maybe at some point when my parents are on vacation and I can infect THEIR house with the smell.

Really I love trying wild foods, but my access has been limited to stuff that only a little off the beaten path. Someday I hope I can have the chance to try some truly wild foods, but until then, I'm just gonna enjoy what I do have access to.

[longlivefeedback]

hey! so, i'm sure this is something that's been discussed, but i can't find any discourse on your blog. i'm a fic writer and NOTHING annoys me more than the "don't say anything negative" attitude toward fanfiction. if someone leaves a comment that says "i loved your fic but i'm curious as to why character didn't do [x] since it seems a little inconsistent..." or "loved it! just wanted to point out a couple small inaccuracies that most people won't notice but since i work in this field..." (1/?)

it shows me that the commentor was paying attention and thinking about my writing, and isn’t that the ENTIRE point of posting your writing online? i’ve run across quite a few writers who will criticise any criticism or less-than-effusive comments, and it just really, really annoys me. the main reason i think is bc i legitimately LOVE fanfiction—it’s my preferred thing to write/read over original fiction bc it allows me to focus on just exploring the characters since people are already(2/?)

familiar with them/the canon verse. it’s why i hate that it isn’t taken as seriously as original fic, and i really think this culture of “don’t engage unless you only have good things to say” is one of the reasons it just isn’t taken seriously. ofc, not saying that you should just point out all the flaws, but some polite, helpful concrit or probing questions in addition to praise?? makes me really happy tbh. idk maybe i just take it too seriously but (¾)

it REALLY bothers me, and so i wanted to read some debate on this matter from both sides — not just writers, not just readers. this my extremely long-winded way of asking: do you guys have any posts like this?? (4/4)

LLF response: Hi Anon! We do have some posts about commenting culture and a brief guide to supporting authors, as well as reblogs on a guide to reviews and an overview of fandom commenting. Assuming you’ve looked through those posts, the reason why you cannot find anything that addresses your specific concern (i.e. questions in comments bringing up inconsistencies or trying to understand why a character appears to be acting OOC) is probably because LLF has been primarily concerned with broad structural changes and feedback initiatives thus far and the topic you raise, while valid and important to feedback culture, is a bit too nuanced for the current focus of this blog.That being said, I think that your ask brings up some interesting assumptions and perceptions that are critical for fandom health and which I can give my personal opinion on under the jump.

Full disclaimer, the following is my (mod dragonling’s) personal opinion and interpretation of the ask.

1. i’m a fic writer and NOTHING annoys me more than the “don’t say anything negative” attitude toward fanfiction.

This to me is indicative of differing expectations for fandom. Let’s say that instead of fic writing, we’re all chefs (or people who make food) here. We each make a dish and now we want to share it with the world. Do you (A) take it to your friend’s house where they are holding a potluck celebration; (B) set up a stall at the state fair; or © enter it into a cooking/baking competition ala Chopped where 5 star judges and food critics will sample your food? Depending on where you take you food, you would expect very different reactions.

Generally speaking, you would probably want your friends at the potluck to thank you for bringing something and compliment you for how delicious your dish is. If you were still fine tuning your recipe, you could let them know and maybe they would be able to say one or two things they liked or didn’t like about it which you would file away for the evening, to be looked at for the next time you made something.

However, if you were at a state fair, even getting your dish looked at by the crowds of people milling around would be an achievement. If someone bought some of your food, that would be fantastic! If they bought it, took a bite, and then told you how tasty it was, even better! Those people that bought your food, went away, and then came back to tell you how much they enjoyed it or came back to buy some more and brought all their friends with them are heaven sent angels. You probably wouldn’t expect anyone to say anything negative about your food because even if you were still fine tuning the recipe, a state fair is neither the time or place where any sort of meaningful culinary discussion can really take place on a consistent basis.

The situation would be different if you were at a cooking competition. There, you would expect these food experts to pick apart your food. Maybe not steamroll and chew you out ala Gordon Ramsey, but even then if that’s what you were expecting and the kind of feedback you respond best to, then sign up for a competition he is judging at. Perhaps you don’t want to just be yelled at, but would actually like to be coached, then maybe enter a competition with more of a mentoring element versus cutthroat competition.

This all really boils down to knowing who your audience is and your expectations for them. I would say that posting to ao3 is closest to the state fair, and is why the “don’t say anything negative” attitude is perfectly acceptable and even encouraged. The fact that this annoys you indicates that there is some disconnect between what you really want and where you’re going in order to get it. I think that we can all agree that going to the state fair and expecting Gordon Ramsey to show up and tell you why your dish sucks is just…not going to happen. Even more, it’s something that shouldn’t happen. What if you were at the state fair to raise money for charity? No well meaning person is going to tell you that your food sucks and that you should do better and if they do, they don’t mean you well.

So, rather than get hung up on the “don’t say anything negative” attitude in fandom (which, I may add, is there and has been cultivated for a reason), take another look at your audience and your expectations. If you want criticism that is helpful and of good quality, go to an editor or join a writing group. If you want to give criticism, find someone to beta for where you can cultivate a relationship that is mutually beneficial. Don’t be a Gordon Ramsey walking around at the charity fair of home baked goods giving tips to the local families trying to raise funds to repair their schools. Be conscious of the fact that people write for different reasons, and that while some may be okay with great advice being shouted at them, for others, it is a nightmare. Be kind and don’t show up at the wrong party.

2. “i loved your fic but i’m curious as to why character didn’t do [x] since it seems a little inconsistent…” or “loved it! just wanted to point out a couple small inaccuracies that most people won’t notice but since i work in this field…”

I understand where you’re coming from, Anon, and the two examples you mentioned evoke an important point of why it is so difficult to give criticism online. Your questions attempt to illustrate how one might leave a comment that shows that the reader was paying attention and thinking about your writing, and from your ask, I can only assume that you would be thrilled to personally receive either of those comments. To assume that others would be similarly thrilled, however, is fallacious and a dangerous assumption. What works for you, may be hurtful to others. You pointing out “a couple [of] small inaccuracies” may be you being genuinely helpful, but to the author, it may come off as a reader assuming that they didn’t do their research, a reader being a know-it-all, or a reader missing the forest for the trees, especially if this is your one and only comment in a long multi-chaptered work.

Of course, things get even more nuanced when we consider context. Your comment about inaccuracies may be the best thing ever if the author specifically asked for guidance on this matter, or if you have a long standing relationship with this author and somehow commenting in ao3 is the way you beta for each other, or maybe this small inaccuracy is actually a big inaccuracy and you’re just trying to be super tactful about it… I could go on an on and on about it, but how you say things is often just as important as what you say, and in writing, where we do not have the benefit of verbal and visual cues, expressing what you mean becomes even more complicated.

Which is another reason why “don’t say anything negative” is the default. It’s harder to ruin someone’s day with only positive statements, especially when you don’t have the time or platform to really explain yourself and have a meaningful conversation with the author. This Anon’s view on concrit is worth pondering. If you don’t understand or agree with this sentiment, then the conversation we should be having is not “why doesn’t anyone leave concrit” but rather “what is concrit?” 

3. i’ve run across quite a few writers who will criticise any criticism or less-than-effusive comments, and it just really, really annoys me.

Going back to expectations and audiences; remember which party you’re going to. Also, what may seem like just a less-than-effusive comment to you, an outsider who stumbled upon this one comment thread, may actually be a long antagonistic war of words between author and commenter spanning many years, fandoms, and fics. I don’t know. It could happen. Maybe you just have a higher tolerance of trolls and criticism than the rest of us.

It’s certainly happened to me and Rose here on the LLF blog. Either we read the same ask differently or just have different reactions and ways of responding to things that tick us off. Even if we have a shared goal and have known each other for awhile, we’re both different people. It’s not reasonable for me to try to change Rose’s responses to match my own exactly. Just because you care about fanfiction so much doesn’t mean that everyone else does or should as well. If this is something that really truly annoys you and you are trying to see both sides of this issue, I think that you’re on the right track and want to encourage you to keep learning and thinking about it.

4. it isn’t taken as seriously as original fic, i really think this culture of “don’t engage unless you only have good things to say” is one of the reasons it just isn’t taken seriously.

I am not a literary expert, and cannot really opine on how fanfiction is viewed by traditional literature or whether a fantasy AU is better/worse than a published fantasy book or how they relate to the writings of Homer. I also am not sure what you mean by fanfiction not being taken “as seriously as original fic.” Certainly you take it seriously. I take it seriously enough to spend my free time on it, and I take fandom seriously enough that I am spending time I could be using to write fanfiction to help run this blog. If you mean that publishing houses will not pay any attention to a fanfiction story, I would agree because why would they? Fanfiction is, by definition, derived from original fiction. Publishing houses are after new and original content because copyright is a real thing.

Even then, let’s look at Fifty Shades of Grey. It’s Twilight fan fiction. Is it taken more seriously than Twilight? Why or why not? How does it compare to Harry Potter, or Pride or Prejudice? Reading and writing are such personal experiences that I hesitate to say that one piece of writing is inherently better than the other. Hence, I do not think that fan fiction’s audience who “don’t engage unless you only have good things to say” is a problem. To me, that’s like saying “anime isn’t as good as non-anime cartoons because people who watch anime don’t speak English.”

5. not saying that you should just point out all the flaws, but some polite, helpful concrit or probing questions in addition to praise…

Yes, agreed; and if this is what the author has asked for, please go ahead! However, please also remember that not everyone knows how to ask probing questions, give helpful concrit, or even be polite. Sometimes, they aren’t even trying to be rude. It just comes off as such. Maybe the commenter is having a bad day and can’t word right. Maybe the author is having a bad day and can’t read anything without their own personal negative bias clouding their perceptions.

It’s one of the things that we are trying to address at LLF so that these barriers are lower. It’s one of the reasons why some things (native comment templates) just will not work for AO3, because tone is hard to convey, nevermind that your audience probably numbers in the millions, each with their own personal biases and understanding of language. We know that even with giving kudos, people mean different things. Think about how difficult it is to convey sarcasm in writing. AO3 already receives flack for their kudos message, which is the way it is because can you come up with something better that will not tick off anyone? Maybe people want to be polite, maybe they want to be helpful, maybe they just don’t know how. We’re trying to change that and trying to give people the tools to help them comment: LLF Comment Builder, LLF Comment Project, in-line commenting (these tools are mostly focused on how to give positive comments because from the feedback we’ve gotten, people have a hard enough time doing that as is.)

But hey, if you want something for concrit or how to ask probing questions, don’t wait for us. Look up a good guide and reblog it. Encourage your followers to ask you questions about your writing. Write your own guide to commenting. Go. Be the change you want to see.

6. do you guys have any posts like this

So, after all that, LLF may not be the blog for you if you are interested in hearing as many opinions as possible about this topic. However, I would highly encourage you to check out @ao3commentoftheday, which has already hosted quite a few asks about this:

sometimes-i-dont-comment-because-im-a

actually-i-have-a-question-about-commenting

do-writers-like-constructive-criticism-in-reviews

about-the-leaving-only-glowing-praise-comments

about-concrit-i-dont-explicitly-discourage-it

its-not-about-wanting-concrit-its-about-wanting

1-with-concrit-i-think-the-question-is-not

Don’t forget to check the notes on those threads!