#i avoided this ask for a bit bc i didnt wanna talk about misogyny so much

[mikami]

What do you think fandom's hate on kiyomi takada. Most people I met criticize her saying that she is so stupid to get manipulated by light. Even though light is considered so charismatic that he can easily manipulate anyone. She isn't so stupid as someone like mikami who has high expectations called her shrewd and brilliant plus she got in to-oh University. I wonder why people never say kiyomi takada deserved better.

I think there's a laundry list of reasons for it...

You already pointed out that she isn't stupid per se. Most of the things she frequently gets insulted as apply to Misa just as much if not more than her. So then, what's up?

1. She's "The Other Woman". You know that specific brand of misogyny where the woman the man is cheating with is blamed entirely for the hurt inflicted on the main girlfriend? Yeah.

Misa's the established character so she gets the sympathy and Takada is perceived as amoral for stealing her man (despite Light lying to her about his relationship with Misa being over).

This isn't helped by the fact that the story itself frames it that way - Misa only ever gets mad at Takada, not Light, and their "catfight" about it is portrayed as "something women do". The story is actively inviting the reader to take sides, so of course readers pick Misa who is the more developed character who they have known for longer.

When in reality, Light is mistreating both of them and liking both Takada and Misa at the same time is not contradictory...

2. She's the "Not Like Other Girls" girl but not in the relatable subculture way. There's no talking around this, Takada herself has plenty of internalized misogyny to deal with. She also thinks 'stupid women' are the reason sexism exists, so she looks down on all 'stupid women' rather than directing her anger at the system.

This doesn't sit well with readers because it's just a shitty attitude to have and because - again - it is directed towards Misa, the character the audience has had longer to grow attached to.

... so instead of acknowledging Takada's misogyny as a part of a complex character, it is countered with MORE misogyny because clearly TAKADA is actually the evil bitch who gives women a bad name - people love to project people they hate irl onto her.

3. She is just not well-written. Like, I think the character we get in the text is interesting and I love her with my whole heart - but a lot of the implications are on accident. I don't buy that Ohba really set down and was like "here is how a career-focused woman in a male-dominated field would be ruled by internalized misogyny", he just kinda hates women and wrote shit that way. And yet, Takada turned out pretty consistent and very fascinating...?

Her story is sympathetic, too, but the framing just focuses so little on her internal life and so much on how 'stupid' she is for falling for Light (no thanks to Near who absolutely views her as a shallow dumb bitch and says so loudly) that the reader's view is directed there too.

And then most importantly...

4. "She killed Mello"...?! I see this one all the time and it drives me up the wall, like somehow Takada killing Mello is seen as this great malicious act against a beloved character?? And not an action of self-defense of a terrified kidnapping victim??? It's bizarre.

People regularly cite "he was nice to her, he gave her a blanket!!" as if that somehow makes up for kidnapping her and forcing her to strip at gunpoint... how ungrateful of her to still think of him as an active threat to her physical safety. How could she!

It's bizarre....

So tl;dr: I understand how the manga primes you to hate Takada but I also want people to rethink that bias because Takada Good.

[bi-lesbian]

I saw you said you don't mind people venting in your ask box so i just have something to say. it is SO HARD for anyone to completely divorce themselves from their lived experiences. like the thing about mspec or he/him lesbians or any other intersectional identity is that a majority of a person's experiences depend on AGAB, like just because an nb or mspec lesbian isn't a woman that doesnt mean they've never experienced misogyny in their life or cant relate at all to lesbianism. vent 1/2

oh yeah, this actually reminds me of something my best friend has talked about before. hes trans too, and i remember him ranting a bit in our friend server that hes tired of being called "transphobic" when he tries to talk about that bc of the nature of being trans, most of them have "lived the life" of their assigned gender, or even still do, if theyre not out or dont "pass" to a lot of people. when someone is assigned a gender or appears to look a certain gender, they are treated in whatever gender specific way thats common in society by many people. as such, trans men often dont grow up with toxic masculinity being engrained into them when they were younger, and things like that.

they often have a unique experience of being able to be treated with both stereotypical binary gender roles, due to how people see them as before and after coming out, before and after "passing," if they ever do, etc. it is really invalidating to many trans people to be ignoring this stuff just to try to avoid talking about agab at all, and especially shitty to be calling them transphobic for trying to talk about their own trans experiences. agab is irrelevant to a lot of things, but also it is important in how trans people get treated due to how they often get viewed in society, and sometimes it does need to be discussed to understand trans experiences better.

and thats also an incredibly good point, ive heard occaisonally about "trans men lesbians" and didnt quite get why someone would wanna identify that way, ive been wanting to look into it for a while and ask people about it so i could understand better (havent yet bc of energy), but i think just from this i can wrap my head around it pretty easily now. from what i understand, its from the inherent strange experience with gender trans people have, due to not identifying as their assigned gender- or not completely- but still having experiences with it and thus some have an attachment to it still, even if identifying as the gender doesnt feel right (or completely right).

and ive talked about masc/man-aligned enbies using lesbian before and how i support that, since nonbinary experiences are so vast and theyre specifically not binary so it doesnt mean they are just A Man even while being a bit aligned to that gender. having already thought about that helps me conceptualize this in my head for specifically trans men as well, as they also have experiences so vast and not binary- or i suppose often Especially Very Binary, with having experiences in both of the typical binary genders, thus being different from either individual gender experience alone.

honestly its very interesting to me hearing about different peoples experiences with gender and sexualities and such, theres so many things that are different from my own life, and its great being able to expand my view of things from getting info from other peoples lives.

anyways yeah, claiming identities like this are transphobic is just very strange to me.. theres a lot of ways people experience things while being trans, and in the community all throughout history trans people have been fighting against typical gendered things, breaking the binary and gender roles and the "typical" meaning of things. a lot of trans experiences are similar, and a lot of them are different- none of them really say anything about another persons experiences or identity, bc every persons identity is their own and theirs alone.

also sorry if i got a bit rambly on this lol, i just wanted to get all of my thoughts down bc this really helped things click in my head. i know you were meaning to just rant, but it did help me understand some things a lot better, so i thank you for that!!!