#he's so specific about wanting yosuke to treat him as an equal

[nadziejastar]

I think a big obstacle that I don't see acknowledged to Lea and Isa becoming romantically involved is that Japanese culture is even more conservative regarding LGBT issues than Western culture is. SE has only had a few LGBT characters in their entire history, and they're all relatively minor. I hope that Isa and Lea can break the mold and I think that them being both supporting characters and adults makes it more likely, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

I definitely don’t have my hopes up either. I think KH3 did everything it could to intentionally eliminate all the intimacy between Lea and Isa. Skuld seemed to be thrown into the mix for that purpose. Even if they hadn’t sabotaged it in KH3, I still think the relationship would have been more implied that outright stated. Because like you said, Japan is even more conservative than the West regarding such depictions. I can compare the situation with Lea and Isa to a few other pairings and how they were handled.

There’s Yosuke and the main character (Yu) from Persona 4. Yosuke was going to be a romance option. Voiced dialogue still exists in the files (including dubbed!), but the option was completely removed by the time of release. The fact that even a more niche series (well, at the time) like Persona felt too afraid to put an optional romance between two guys in, shows how taboo this topic is, especially in Japan. And KH3 was much higher profile and had a much bigger budget than P4. So, it was not that surprising to me to see how Lea and Isa got treated. It was like déjà vu. Doesn’t make me less annoyed by it, though.

I also think they heavily altered Yosuke’s personality in the final game to cover up any suggestion of same-sex attraction. In the final game he mostly acts like a frat boy stereotype. Constantly hitting on any girl, and making sexist and homophobic remarks. They were really overcompensating. It was very annoying actually. And it only made him seem more closeted. In his Social Link, the dialogue was incredibly well-written and I loved his personality. This pairing was handled so similarly to Lea and Isa. Here’s why I think so:

Yosuke: Oh yeah, I’m Yosuke Hanamura! I’m his friend. His partner, y'know.

Marie: …Partner? You mean like a close friend?

Yosuke: Heheh, that about sums it up. Er, what’s your name?

They’re very close. Yosuke constantly refers to himself as Yu’s “partner”.

Yosuke: I haven’t changed addresses since before we moved to Inaba.  I mean, I might get a text from someone. …It’s hard to call, y'know? If I called people just to tell them my number changed, they’d get annoyed. And some of them never planned to text me anyway…Oh but hey, don’t look at me like I don’t have any friends! ……Though to tell you the truth, I don’t remember what we all used to talk about. Can’t really call ‘em friends…

He did not feel close to any of his old friends.

Yosuke: It’s only with you guys that I talk seriously like this. I dunno why, but I feel like I don’t have to lie…Especially with you. You’ve already seen the worst of me and all. But well… thinking about it now, if someone had to see that, I’m glad it was you.

He opens up to you in a way he doesn’t with anyone else.

Yosuke: So, you ever invited a girl in here?

“I haven’t.”

Yosuke: Haha, maybe you’re more of a man’s man than I thought.

> Yosuke seems happy…

He’s happy that you are a “man’s man”.

“I will soon.”

Yosuke: Seriously!? That mean you’re working on someone!?

> Yosuke is keyed up…

He gets anxious if you say you’re bringing a girl over.

Yosuke: M-Man, kids sure are mature these days…Well, my first love was in first grade, too! I’ve always been ahead of my time. But, well… I don’t really need that in my life right now. It’s just not the time…I have something I need to do before that can happen…

He said that he was not interested in dating right now. He’s working on sorting out his feelings, since the girl he liked before was murdered. Yet in the rest of the game, they have him constantly hit on every girl and act desperate to get a girlfriend. It was so weird. It felt like deflection, in the same way Skuld was with Lea and Isa.

Yosuke: When the murders started, I got excited…I thought there was finally a point to me being in Inaba…I thought I could forget Senpai was gone… and the fact that I was such a loser…I jumped at the murders and never once thought about what I was doing…I… didn’t even take the first step…I’m sorry…Saki-senpai. I’m sorry… Yu.

He starts crying after opening up to you. There’s an option to hug him. Around the waist too. He says it’s for girls, but still accepts it. That was what he needed. You are the one who helps him sort out his feelings.

Yosuke: This town I hated so much? Now, I love it. There’s still nothing here, but I have family and friends… and you. The important things are never far off… They’re all around you.

He mentions family and friends, hesitates, then mentions you separately. Does that mean you’re more special to him than a friend?

I just did what I thought was the best thing at the time. For Roxas, for Xion, for the Organization—and for Isa. But most of all for me.

It reminded me of this. Axel mentions everyone else, hesitates, then mentions Isa separately. Not Saïx, Isa. Was Isa special to him?

Yosuke: I always wanted to be “special.” I thought my life’d finally have meaning if I was “special” to someone. That’s why I was really excited when got my Persona. But I really didn’t need it… It’s not what you have or what you can do…Just being born, living your life… Before you know it, you’re already special to someone.

“You’re right.”

Yosuke: Yeah… Like you… You’re special to me, you know?

Yep. Yosuke wants to be special to someone, and he says you’re special to him.

“That’s not true.”

Yosuke: You just don’t realize it yet. You’re already special… to Chie, Yukiko… and me.

When Yosuke said “special” it stood out to me. This was before I found out that the romance option was taken out. I don’t pick up romantic vibes between male characters that often. I don’t wear shipping goggles. Their relationship simply seemed romantic to me. “Special” is not a word guys will use with each other very often.

Because it is very intimate. If the writers have a character say that another character is “special” to them, it almost always will seem romantic. Especially between two guys. And I did get those vibes. When I found out he was supposed to be a romance option, I wasn’t surprised. So, after all this intimate bonding, how does their arc end?

Yosuke: I didn’t realize it…When I called you “special,” I thought some more about it. I think of everyone, I wanted to be acknowledged by you the most…So…I want you to hit me! Give me a good one. Knock out all this crap inside of me. I want to be equal with you. I want us to stand shoulder-to-shoulder. So c'mon…

By…getting in a fist fight? Two guys were getting just a bit too close and intimate with each other. Yosuke used a taboo word. “Special”. Now he has to be beaten up for it. Otherwise it’s just too GAY, ya know? And that’s NOT okay. The message is if a guy is too intimate with another guy, he needs to “man up” and get some sense knocked into him. Sad, really. In the deleted dialogue, there was a romantic confession. Yosuke says he likes you. The Japanese word for “like” is the one specifically used romantically. To me this is the ultimate display of the writers chickening out.

And that’s how Lea and Isa’s arc felt to me, too. There was all of this dialogue suggesting there was something very intimate and special between them. Then in KH3, we get a girl shoehorned in out of nowhere. Apparently Saïx was doing “everything for” her, despite having zero emotional capacity. And Lea also wants to “clobber” Isa now, not free his heart. It felt so contrived in order to create emotional distance between them, so any hints of romance would be gone, gone, gone. It felt like the writers were panicking and going “No Homo!” They were so desperate that they wouldn’t even let the real Isa get saved from being a vessel. That’s how afraid they were of Lea and Isa’s natural chemistry and special intimacy together. Pathetic.

Then there’s Ike and Soren from the Fire Emblem series. Lea and Isa reminded me of them. You have the more confident, “masculine” one in Ike and Lea. And then you have the calm, quiet, “feminine” one in Soren and Isa. They have a hard time opening up to anyone else. I think Isa even kinda looks like Soren. They both have that penetrating stare, indicating high intelligence. And they have soft, delicate features, indicating vulnerability underneath the surface.

They both act cold outwardly, but Soren is described as a very empathetic young man. And I think Isa was, too. I love this ship. I think this is the direction they were originally trying to take Lea and Isa’s relationship. This pairing is HEAVILY implied by the story. But it’s never made explicit. Why do I think it’s romantic?

Soren: Curse you! Why won’t you let it go?! I have no one to rely on but you! If I tell you and you turn on me… I… I… I could no longer live.

Ike: That’s why you have to tell me, Soren. You wouldn’t open your heart to anyone else. So if I didn’t so something about it, you’d probably be in pain forever.

Soren is totally emotionally dependent on Ike. And Ike is tender and soft with him in a way he isn’t with anybody else. There’s just a level of trust and intimacy that is unique to them.

Soren: When the sage died, no one would help me. I couldn’t speak. Couldn’t find food. I was dying. You were the only one who helped. You and your father. That’s why you’re my friend. My…only friend.

This is the localized text. Even in the first game, the they tried to remove any romantic intimations. They added a reference to Ike’s dad for no reason. And plenty of people still choose to see Soren and Ike as just friends. I think it’s more than obvious the writers intended for them to be more than that. But many people don’t want to see it. And it was kept ambiguous for that very reason.

Soren: When the sage died, no one would help me. I couldn’t speak. Couldn’t find food. I was dying. Only you held your hand out to me. That’s why…only you are special to me…

This is a translation of the original Japanese dialogue. There’s that word again. “Special”. This word cannot be overstated. It conveys a VERY different message than “friend”. That’s why they thought it needed to be changed.

Soren: “There’s only one place for me to be, Ike… and it’s by your side.”

Soren is described as “the boy always at Ike’s side” by other characters. The story demonstrates again and again that they are inseparable. If Ike and Soren achieve A-level support, there is a paired ending. Ike has this with no female character, and Soren has this with no other character.

Axel: I think you can be inseparable even if you’re apart. It’s like, if you feel really close to each other. Like best friends.

Lea and Isa were inseparable, too.

Ike: Listen, lady. This is a shop, and I’m a customer. What’s so sweet about that?

Aimee: Oh, such cold words… My hero plays hard to get! You’re only making me more interested.

Ike: Will you let go of my hand? Please?

There’s a running joke about Ike avoiding a persistent female admirer that Soren has to save him from.

Gatrie: Not those flowers… THOSE flowers!

Ike: …Gatrie, we’re inside. There’s nothing here but the temple handmaidens.

Gatrie: Exactly! It’s like a whole new species of girl lives in Begnion! Everyone in this palace is drop-dead gorgeous!

Ike: …

Gatrie: You know what I mean, Ike? Tee hee! Say, which one strikes your fancy? That buxom lass with the chestnut hair is… Hey, Ike? Ike?

He has no interest in admiring pretty women.

“Hey, Redhead over there!” Axel turned at the sound of the voice, scratching his head.

“What, Larxene. I’m Axel. Got it memorised?”

“I can’t just remember over ten names all of a sudden, can I?”

“Yeah, I guess not.” Axel watched as Larxene ran up to him.

“How is it? Does the coat suit me?” Larxene did a twirl in front of him. The coat always changed to fit the wearer. It was a perfect tight fit, as expected.

“It’s fine, I guess.”

This feels like it was put in for the same reason Ike’s scenes were. Sure, Aimee is clingy and obsessive. And Larxene is a bitch. It doesn’t prove they’re disinterested in women or that they’re in love with their best friend. But in addition to everything else, it presents a strong argument. Axel isn’t interested in admiring pretty women.

Soren—An officer in the Greil Mercenaries. A cool-headed realist who has deep trust in Ike, but will rarely open up to any other beorc or laguz.

Isa—A quiet and cool-headed youth. Though he does come out of his shell when talking to his best friend Lea, toward others he is distant and untalkative.

Like Soren, Isa is described in terms of his relationship to Lea. He only comes out of his shell for him. There’s a level of intensity to their friendship that is unique. I am sure Isa was dependent on Lea emotionally, like Soren was with Ike.

Soren: Ike? Ike! This can’t… It can’t… What am I… If you’re not here, what am I to do?

If Ike dies in the first game, Soren has a special reaction.

Soren: “Ike… Please live… Even if all the cities burn, and the seas swallow Tellius… You mustn’t die… Not you…”

And another in the second game. He cannot bear to lose Ike. Sounds like some Shakespearean sonnet, too. That just doesn’t sound like something you’d say about someone unless you were in love with them.

Micaiah: Your heart is frozen, but I feel a warm core trying to melt through that ice. I see… You have someone you cherish very much. Someone you rely on.

Soren: Do not presume to understand me, you ridiculous girl. You have no idea who I am and what I can do. None at all.

His heart was frozen, but Ike was able to melt through the ice. Soren cherishes him and relies on him. He doesn’t appreciate hearing it from others, because Ike is his weakness. Soren’s entire character arc revolved around Ike.

Saïx:Do you know what happens to those who lose their true purpose? Inevitably, they destroy themselves.

Much like how Saïx says he lost his true purpose as soon as Axel left Organization XIII.

Ike: Soren, don’t cry.

Soren: Cry…? I’m … crying?

Ike: You’re so smart, and yet you’re completely hopeless at normal stuff. Look, come here.

Soren: P-please don’t treat me like a child. I’m not that…

Ike: Come on.

Soren: …

Ike: Sheesh, you’re such a pain. I’ll come over there.

Soren: [breaks out crying]

Another scene that involves hugging a crying person. A very intimate act. Soren opens up about his dark past. He pushes Ike away when he tries to hug him, saying not to treat him like a child. But he accepts it, too. It’s exactly what he needed and wanted. This scene is referred to in the official fan book as “the moment where their two hearts become one”. I think a scene like this is what they were absolutely terrified of happening in KH3.

Axel: Hey, I’m not about to tell you ALL my dark secrets. Got it memorized?

It all comes down to the degree of intimacy. Axel doesn’t express his deepest feelings to Roxas, Xion, or anyone else. And he doesn’t want to. He’s more than happy to avoid heavy issues like his past. He’d prefer to keep things light and fun, just enjoying their company.

Axel: As long as we remember each other, we’ll never be apart.

Roxas: Ha ha, wow, Axel. That sounded ridiculous.

Axel: What? I thought it was pretty deep.

When Axel made his comment, the other two thought it was awkward. Roxas laughs and says he sounded he sounded ridiculous.

Xion: Don’t worry, Axel–we got your hokey speech memorized.

Axel: Just checking.

And Xion said his remark was hokey. And I don’t think either of them were out of line with their comments. I completely understand why they teased him. It was because his statement contained a lot of intimacy. It sounded like something you’d say to, well…a lover. To them Axel’s remark came out of nowhere. And it kind of did. Because for the most part, his comment wasn’t really directed at them. Sure, he never wants to forget them. But he had someone else on his mind before he said it. He only spoke his thoughts out loud to cheer them up. But even they could recognize that the comment didn’t feel appropriate for them.

Day 118: You Changed, Not Me

Talking to Roxas and Xion always brings back memories of my human life, back when I was a kid. It’s a weird sensation. I ought to be able to share all this with Saïx, but I just don’t feel like it anymore. It’s strange, but I’m content with just missing what’s gone. I’m not the one who changed. You did.

Roxas and Xion remind him of his past. But unlike with them, Axel DOES want to share his memories with Saïx. Badly. He wants to connect emotionally with him. But Saïx has no interest in having an emotional relationship. Because of this, interacting with him is incredibly painful for Axel. So painful that he’s more content with just missing what’s gone rather than subjecting himself to continual rejection. Saïx is the only character Axel acts like this towards.

Axel: So you don’t need a heart to have something that you can’t bear to lose then. If that’s true, then I guess the closest thing that we Nobodies have would be memories of our past. It’s the memories that create the things that we don’t want to lose.

Even though Saïx rejects him, Axel is always careful not to open up to anyone else about his past. He never does, even in KH3. And yet, memories of his past were the one thing he felt like he couldn’t bear to lose. The same memories that he longed to share with Saïx. Axel desires intimacy with Saïx and nobody else. He can’t bear to lose his memories of the past—of Isa.

Axel: Love is what happens if there’s something really special between two people.

Roxas: You mean, like, if they’re best friends? Inseparable?

Axel: Well, you can care about your friends, I guess, but that’s not what I’m talking about.

There’s that word again. “Special”. And again, it conveys a VERY different message than “friend”. It’s a very taboo word when used by men towards other men. If men can’t be special to each other in a video game about hearts, light, friendship, magic, love, and Disney Princesses, then they’re pretty much out of luck I guess.

[astromechas]

(SPOILERS FOR Q2)

This is probably one of the most requested summaries (there were a few more asks that I didn’t include here). As such, this one is a bit long one.

Anyway, I’ll summarize this in order of appearance, starting with FEMC! (please excuse any spelling or grammatical errors since I didn’t proofread this)

(Under the cut... this is so long, I know I’ve said that before but DAMN)

-- FeMC joins the Phantom Thieves --

I did a quick summary of how FeMC joins the Phantom Thieves (HERE) so this bit is just her thoughts on the group.

FeMC is super on board with the whole thief motif. The Phantom Thieves never really go into detail about what exactly they steal (though Ann did once mention their full title being “Phantom Thieves of Hearts”) so FeMC thinks about it being kind of like a game. Once they return to cinema after saving FeMC and welcoming her to join them in rescuing Makoto and Haru, FeMC laughs about how it’s kinda like she’s a member of the Phantom Thieves as well. When they return to continue their rescue mission, FeMC gladly volunteers herself to dress up as a cop, because using disguises is a basic part of being a thief. All in all, FeMC thinks it’s a lot of fun, and thinks that everyone in the PT is really nice.

-- The Phantom Thieves meet The Investigation Team --

The Phantom Thieves (+FeMC) first meet the Investigation Team in the 2nd theater, during the Jurassic Labyrinth. Futaba notices something moving at great speed in their direction, so Joker goes to check it out. After turning a corner, he is immediately attacked by P4MC, brandishing a katana, with Joker defending himself with only a pistol. The Phantom Thieves all show great surprise at this strange person who is able to hold his own in a fight with Joker. The Investigation Team show a similar level of surprise, seeing a masked man fight equally with their leader, and both teams are shocked to hear the other also knows about Personas. Teddie yells that this isn’t the time or place to talk about this-- not while Rise is in pain and Yosuke is missing.

Akechi asks the Investigation Team if all of them were Persona users (like the Phantom Thieves). P4MC is surprised to hear that, with Kanji pointing out that not only did Joker have a gun, but showed a willingness to use it (to which Yusuke pointed out it was only a model gun).

After they’ve sorted that out, Ann asks everyone if they’ve calmed down now. P4MC apologizes as well, saying they were all just a bit frazzled since they suddenly appeared in the jungle, with little understanding of the situation. They wandered around looking for an “exit” when they saw Joker, and P4MC says that though he attacked him, he had no intention of killing him.

Teddie tells P4MC to wrap it up quickly, because Rise is in a lot of pain. P4MC tells the Phantom Thieves that Rise was poisoned, and asks them if they have any kind of antidote. When they answer no, Chie asks them if they’ve seen anyone else in the jungle, specifically, a guy with funny hair and a pair of headphones. Unfortunately they haven’t, and FeMC laments that they too have lost someone precious to them.

Anyway, knowing they have no way of helping Rise, the Phantom Thieves take the Investigation Team back to the cinema, with P4MC saying he’s putting his trust in Joker (though he sounds a bit reluctant, considering he’s just met strange masked people who say they’re gonna take him to a cinema... from the jungle).

When they get back, after adjusting to the shock of suddenly appearing in a cinema, Naoto points out that the Phantom Thieves’ clothes have suddenly changed, confused on when they could’ve had time to do that. Ryuji brushes her off, saying getting Rise help should be a priority.

FeMC approaches P4MC, and tells him that although she’s only just met the Phantom Thieves, they are all very kind and reliable. She also says if he’s facing difficulties, he shouldn’t hesitate to cooperate with others. He thanks her and tells her he feels a bit reassured.

After that, Margaret and Marie both appear, and tell them to leave Rise with them. Everyone (save for P4MC) is surprised to see Marie there, who says she only came because Margaret made her, while the Phantom Thieves are again weirded out by the sudden appearance of more people in blue clothes.

While Rise is getting treated, the Phantom Thieves and the Investigation Team both get to know each other better. Teddie commends P4MC for knowing such a beautiful woman (Margaret) while Naoto tells them that it isn’t the time for talk like that, not while Rise 久慈川さん (kujikawa-san) was sick and Yosuke was missing.

Ryuji hears Naoto call Rise “Kujikawa“ and starts to connect the dots in his mind and yells that he finally realized who she was (Rise is still a popular idol in P5′s canon). Futaba tells him that it can’t possibly be Risette (Rise-chi in JPN) because Risette isn’t in high school.

And so everyone proceeds to get reallllyyy confused on what year it is. Naoto asks them if the year is 2011 with Yusuke shutting her down completely. FeMC nods along, saying it can’t be 2011 because it’s 2009! P4MC says (confusedly) that it’s 2011, though they quickly come to the realization that whatever pulled them to the cinema crossed through time.

After P4MC introduces himself, Makoto is surprised to hear that he’s a second year because he’s so calm and composed, with Akechi saying he definitely isn’t a normal person since he could hold his own against Joker. Ryuji remarks on the cool atmosphere that the two of them are creating, while Ann points out that P4MC also knew a person in blue (with Joker knowing the twins and FeMC knowing Theo).

Chie introduces herself next, saying her all time favorite things were kung-fu and meat! After this earns a bought of surprise from Haru, Chie immediately backpedals, saying she loovvees sweets in the most unconvincing voice ever.

Yukiko is next, introducing her self as the next proprietor of Amagi Inn. FeMC compliments her, and says as heiress, she must be very skilled at cooking. P4MC jumps in, telling her not to speak of cooking, with Futaba saying she senses a great darkness in his words.

After Kanji introduces himself, he’s immediately distracted by the cute fluffy cat that is Morgana. He passes the baton to Naoto after being made fun of by Teddie.

(I already summarized Naoto’s introduction (HERE) if you want to read that. Mainly they talk about the detective prince title, and how Akechi is the second coming.

Once Rise is better, she introduces herself properly and thanks Nagi, Hikari and Marie for helping her. Ryuji marvels at how cute she is in real life.

That’s the “gist” of the Investigation Team and the Phantom Thieves meeting. They didn’t seem to react too much at the idea of the PT being criminals (mainly because they aren’t making it clear what they steal). However, there are a few points in the game where P4MC points how some of the things they’re doing are ‘thief’ like, being kinda vague in how he normally would never do these sorts of things.

-- The Phantom Thieves and The Investigation Team meet SEES --

I’ve already summarized the parts specifically pertaining to FeMC and SEES (HERE) if you’d like to read that.

A lot of their introduction is dedicated to FeMC and them not knowing her, so a lot of their interactions with the Phantom Thieves come from after the fact.

I’ll just quickly summarize some of their interactions that give a general sense of what the IT and PT think of SEES (and visa versa)

Chie becomes very interested in Akihiko after he says he’s into boxing

Teddie is bothered by the fact that Akihiko is so handsome, and says that he won’t lose to this イケメン (lit. handsome man)

Akechi appears to be familiar with the Kirijo Group

Ann thinks Koromaru looks incredibly fluffy and thinks it’s amazing that a dog can also use a Persona (with Morgana saying that he’s also fluffy and a Persona user, though Ryuji points out that he’s contradicting all the times he’s said he’s not a cat)

Ann marvels at the effect archery has on a person’s body by looking at Yukari (who she, presumably, saw using a bow during the previous battle)

Both Futaba and Rise are excited to see another navigator (Fuuka), cheering at the fact that they’re now a trio.

In the AIGIS labyrinth, as they’re trading off code names, Ann suggests “Boxer” for Akihiko while Haru suggests “Lancer” for Ken.

Both Mitsuru and Makoto both trust each other’s judgement

At the end of one of the special screenings, Mitsuru gives Makoto a bear of gloves (the type worn on motorcycles) as a way of thanking her.

There’s definitely more that I’m missing but for the most part, SEES seems to get along with the Phantom Thieves pretty well. There’s a surprising lack of the groups reacting to the fact that the Phantom Thieves are...well, thieves. I suspect that’s partially because the groups never really talk about what it was that they’re fighting for in their respective games (i.e the Investigation Team never says what they’re investigating). Still, like I said before there are some parts where other characters will note that what they’re doing is “thief” like. So there’s that.

Sorry for the kinda long post, but there was just a lot of summarize. I hope this answers most of you’re guys’ questions! Don’t be afraid to ask if you need clarification, though!