#granted i've been meaning to revisit both series since it's been a few years and the details are getting fuzzy

[bluerosesburnblue]

Something I don't understand is how can people get so into shipping they deny canon? I have some m/f ships I hate because the writing is abysmal and I can point out all the areas the writing fails while the m/m subtext is stronger and STILL say "but yeah, canon was going for the m/f ship regardless". Then happily go on my way ignoring it and having fun with my silly little non-canon fanfics shipping what I want while acknowledging canon says different to my preference. It's not HARD, so why do so many people struggle with it?? And it's extra not hard for me to not be mean to the m/f shippers even if I hate the ship?? Being mean takes extra work than ignoring them.

I've never understood it either, but then, I've never really been that strongly into the whole shipping scene and nowadays I hardly get invested in the romance aspect of stories at all. I'm probably the wrong person to ask since I also don't really care about other people's real-life relationships that much, so "lack of interest in others' romantic lives" might just be a "me" thing

It reminds me of a discussion I had with @mademoiseli (who I can't seem to tag for some reason) about whether you identify with a character, or identify as the character. I'm almost always in the "identify with" category (unless the character in question is an OC), treating the protagonist and other characters as separate entities from myself, so when they end up in relationships I just go "good for them" and move on. Occasionally, if the relationship is unhealthy, I'll go "oh, that's not great writing, that would be an unhealthy basis for a real relationship" but I never try to impose my will or tastes on the character and state that it can't be canon because I disagree with the writing (though even right now there's only two implied canon ships in anything that I can think of that I'm applying that to?)

If your typical way of interacting with fiction is identifying as the characters (or even just the protagonist) and treating them as an extension of you own being, then I imagine it feels more emotionally personal. Character ends up with one you don't like? Then it might feel like you're being forced to love them by some outside force, and that generates pushback. Obviously, if the character is an extension of you, then they'd be happiest with the other character that you like best, yes? And you know yourself better than anyone, so any other interpretation must be wrong. I'd say it's a more raw, emotional stance than identifying "with" a character

Not to use the two different modes of how people view characters as an excuse for how they behave in fandom; they're not. You can curate your experience by blocking tags, or not following people who ship differently, or not tagging hate, etc. Nor is it an excuse for trying to overwrite canon to make your own interpretation seem more legitimate in the eyes of the rest of the fandom and turning it into an "us vs. them" war

I'm simply bringing it up as a possible explanation, and one that people may not really be consciously aware that they're doing. Once you identify which "mode" you're more prone to getting into, the more conscientious you can be about separating the thoughts and feelings that you get from it from a more impersonal analysis of canon. Ideally, I think that everyone should be able to make the distinction between "this is how I felt/thought interacting with this work, this is what the author intended to convey when writing it, these are my thoughts about how well I felt the author conveyed that information, and this is a fanwork derived from canon (and possibly some wish fulfillment)." None of those should contradict, they can all exist separately and, in my opinion, are all perfectly healthy and even necessary components of fandom as a whole. Some people, though, seem to skip the middle two parts and even mistake "this is fanwork" for "this is what the author intended" and I have no idea why that happens so frequently other than, perhaps, some sense of entitlement over the work

I have a lot of thoughts about fandom culture and a lot of reasons why I try to avoid the larger parts of it as much as possible, but I guess I'll leave it there for now

[keyofjetwolf]

Not a fan of Eve? Granted it's been MANY years since I've watched Xena (don't suppose you know of any way for fans outside of the U.S to rewatch?), but I remember really enjoying Eve's storyline. That said, when I say it's been many years since I watched the show, I was of an age where I didn't know girls were allowed to like girls and picked up 0 of the XenaXGabrielle subtext so what do I know!

���Not a fan of Eve” is probably harsher than I mean it to sound. I don’t have a problem with the character, exactly, so much as I feel she gets lost in all the things she’s “meant” to be. The story swallows her, in part because she’s never really allowed to be herself.

Note that of all the seasons, the last few are the ones I’m fuzziest on. I’ve seen them the least. As a whole (so, not specific episodes), I think I’ve watched those seasons only one time after they aired? (And when they aired is when I was watching the show, so you know, A WHILE BACK.) So these are opinions I formed pretty near to when it was ongoing, and it’s possible that revisiting it many years on as a different person, my opinion could change.

BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT I HAVE RIGHT NOW SO

I think part of the problem with Eve is that she was necessitated by Lucy’s real-life pregnancy. I don’t say that with any malice or blame at all, and I think the show did a tremendous job of taking this situation and making it work for them. This is a highly physical show and their titular war-goddess character was very very very pregnant, AND THEY MADE IT WORK. Take fucking notes, every other show (LOOKING AT YOU ON BEHALF OF CHARISMA CARPENTER JOSS WHEDON). But the reality is that they didn’t have much chance to plan ahead for any of this, and so there’s very little consideration given to the-baby-who-would-be-Eve beyond making a story where Xena’s now pregnant.

And it’s just muddled right out of the gate, really. Eve starting as Callisto 2: Insanity Boogaloo, which ITSELF boils down to Xena III: Xena Harder, which THEN brings into consideration this whole nature/nurture thing which -- and I don’t think I’m being unkind when I say this -- is just not handled super well. Xena herself is a product of her experiences, as is Callisto, and I think having Eve, free from any real, direct, personal trauma still turn out to be a blood-thirsty remorseless killer undercuts everyone, as well as the series’ larger central idea about the power of personal choice.

Then later, when she’s “redeemed”, that’s pretty much forced on her as well by King Richard Eli’s spirit showing her “Oh no it’s fine your mummy loved you and didn’t mean to die after like a year on the run from every god who wanted you dead.” And from that she becomes a “messenger of Eli”, so now she’s just Gabrielle’s S4 arc, but without the actual moral wrangling Gabrielle had done for years alongside her stubborn insistence that she could have it all (spoiler alert: OOPS). Eve basically becomes an escort mission in character form, and that’s just nobody’s good time.

So she’s embodying these character ideas but without any of the actual character to support it, and when she’s fairly gracelessly brushed to the sidelines of the show, I can’t say I blame anybody for that choice.

Which inevitably swings around to “How would you have fixed it?” GOOD QUESTION YOU DID NOT ASK. I actually SUPER love the whole overblown dramatic Romeo + Juliet mid-season fake out. All the baby stuff actually. I mean, she’s a baby, she’s not going to have a personality yet, no real complaints with how they handled all that.

AND I love that it was so effective that Ares completely believed it, and accidentally fucked everything up by taking them away so they couldn’t be revived as planned. Then they free themselves twenty-five ageless years later through some combination of will and ~true love soulmate shit~ from their arctic grave Captain America cold sleep blahdy blah? Ridiculous, over-the-top, mythological golden age comic book nonsense, THIS IS PEAK XENA THIS IS WHAT I AM HERE FOR THANK YOU AND BLESS.

No, really, it’s a great way to get out from under the yoke of “we have to carry around a potato” in a show with as much violence as Xena faces and must KEEP facing, if we’d like to maintain the “warrior princess” part. Plus, again, there’s Solan. Xena walked away from her child once. To have her do it again, to take this second chance and say “no thank you” doesn’t sit well with her character at all, even as Xena’s pursuit of a redemption that she’ll never achieve is THE CORE of the show. To keep everything moving, I think having it all be a gambit that went off-rails through no fault of her own is a brilliant compromise.

Then what about Eve? Well to start, I’d strike the whole Octavius thing which, despite everything else, IS CREEPY AS BALLS. I actually think we have a great set-up in the show already with Joxer. We know from the time-jump that he decides to give up the warrior life (which we’ve been building toward with him), and he settles down to have a farm and raise a family and life a simple, peaceful life, well-loved by his fellow villagers. He becomes the keeper of Gabrielle’s scrolls, and tells their stories and keeps the memory of them alive.

Why not add Eve into that?

Joxer loves her as his own daughter and raises her alongside his other children. He tells her all about her parents (as that’s who Xena and Gabrielle both are), and she regrets never knowing them, but has no doubt that they, too, loved her and died to save her. When Xena and Gabrielle return to the world, all those twenty-five years later, they track down Joxer and find Eve still with him, working on his farm with her family and having carved out a life for herself. They all reunite, it’s very loving, but Eve has no interest in going with them. She’s heard the stories and read the scrolls and listened well. That isn’t a life she wants for herself. Xena and Gabrielle, however sad, know it’s the right choice, and go back into the world, more determined than ever to fight to make it a safe place for Eve and everyone like her that just want to live in peace.

THERE WE GO. Eve is what Xena and Callisto both were never allowed to be. Their particular circle of violence is broken -- not through messengers or godly intervention, but because it’s what she wants, and people like Xena and Gabrielle will do all they can to ensure that’s a choice she and millions like her are allowed to make. Eve gets to be her own character making her own path, Xena and Gabrielle get to keep having adventures (with a wonderful place filled with recurring characters we can check in on for those amazing down-time moments), and Ares is in for a hell of a realization later WITHOUT actively making Livia his replacement Xena! EVERYBODY WINS