#for reasons of clarification in target language and to avoid some of the connotations of ''clan'' that you might otherwise bring into the m

[tonyglowheart]

Hi, if it's alright with you there's a translation bit I want to ask about. From what I'm seeing on social media and on various translations of MDZS, 氏 always seems to be translated either to "clan" or "sect", and there are the rare instances where two parties get into a disagreement over it. What would you say is the more accurate meaning? And can both clan and sect can be used as translations of "氏" without any conflict of meaning?

Hi! Okay so. Let’s unpack this lmao.

氏 more technically translates to “clan,” “family,” or like as a term used to refer to “kinship” relations. It doesn’t.. really translate to “sect”? if you looked it up in a dictionary that’s not what it would say at all. *however.* It’s also not without precedent for there to be cultivation sects within what I’d say is, like, “wuxia classical canon” in which the sect name IS the [location][family name]氏, like what you see in MDZS. Look at the sects listed until “Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils” in this EN Wikipedia lists page.

But 氏 itself does not mean sect, I wouldn’t say, and the usages I’ve encountered before in, like, harem dramas or such, use the term to indicate family, clan, kinship relationships, etc. In harem dramas for example (I’m specifically referencing harem dramas bc that’s the specific examples I have off the top of my head lol,,), you’ll see female characters referred to by [Family name]氏 if they’re not being referred to by their titles or whatnot, and it means something like... clanswoman of [Family name] in this usage. like.. referring to her by her maiden name. (which has its own complicated politics involved and I’m not getting into that here, just as a like... related aside to this example)

I haven’t read much as far as the “classics” of the genre to say what’s typical or not, which also means I don’t know if the cited precedents in earlier wuxia novels treat their 氏 as more of a sect or a clan, or a mix the way mdzs does. But I do think that MDZS, at least, does somewhat conflate clan & sect in how the sects are treated compared to the handful of other danmei cultivation novels I’ve read. MDZS’s “sect” situation is a bit more feudal in the sense of having a founding families who are in charge of certain city-states/regions, and have followers who are part of their city-state and so are members of the “clan” but who aren’t actually a part of the clan in the sense of bloodline or familial kinship goes. Non-blood members of the “clan” are not literally adopted into the family in order to be part of the respective cohort, which is what makes it more like your typical cultivation sect within a wuxia or xianxia setting go. At the same time, you still have your differentiation of the ruling/founding family within the “sect” (which goes by the clan name). If it were just translated as Clan, I can see this becoming more and more confusing for an Anglophone, especially if they don’t have experience with the genre, genre conventions, or cultural conventions. But again I can’t speak for if this is “typical” in the genre or even how the specific texts that might be considered a sort of “wuxia classical canon” treat the 氏 there, and how that’s “typically” been treated in translation (like whether the English translations of these other novels tl as clan or sect, for example). I could look into that more, and like as far as due diligence goes I probably should, but I feel like I can answer your questions without reaaallly delving into all of that at this moment, so I’m gonna  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If someone does know better and wants to correct me, please feel free.

Regarding MDZS specifically: I believe the choice to translate 氏 in MDZS as Sect was a specific choice that ExR made (who like. c’mon we all know they did in fact set a lot of translation precedent with their tl). If I remember correctly, I believe that ExR actually translated 氏 to Clan or sth like that at first, but then decided to change it to Sect to go along more with “typical” cultivation novels terms (isn’t there an A/N somewhere to this effect?). I actually don’t have an issue with this translation choice, lmao, I think it helps clarify some of the issues an Anglophone unfamiliar with the genre might have, or like help combat some of the connotations of using “clan” that might confuse an Anglophone. I think in English, “clan” tends to have strong kinship meanings, and like a cursory look at the look-up for clan mentions something about “common ancestor” and how in some societies clans would be exogamous, which means their members cannot marry each other. That is not the case with cultivation sects more generally, and not even the case with MDZS sects even tho it acts as a sort of deconstruction of the genre or as a sort of “proto-xianxia” society evolving out of more feudal structures. Anyway, cultivation sects don’t really follow this kind of organizational idea, and MDZS also does have discussions of the significance of bloodline within each respective Sect, which imo would warrant the distinction in translation choice. It also makes it easier to indicate who you’re talking about when you’re talking about, like.. “inner disciples” or “outer disciples” like Gusu Lan has, slash is extra helpful when the other Sects don’t already have this kind of in-built distinction in terminology.

I also kind of like this particular translation choice ExR made because I think the “Gusu Lan Sect” or “Yunmeng Jiang Sect” format lends it a formality to the naming that something like “Lan Clan/family of Gusu” or “Jiang Family of Yunmeng” kind of lacks.

(Rando note: some more “common” terms that “translate” to sect are 派, and 寨 and you’ll see some others like 帮, 教, or 门 and so forth. Each of these don’t... exactly translate to “sect” on their own but Chinese characters don’t always act as individual “words” with one-for-one translations; they sometimes are morphemes which need to be put together with other characters for form words, but can still lend the meaning of common word-constructions even when used individually, depending on context. If you looked up “sect” in an EN>CN dictionary you’d get results like 教派, 宗派, 门派, and more, which take on the meaning of “sect” depending on context and usage)

tl;dr: no 氏 does not translate to sect, per se; if you just asked me out of the blue I’d say it’s “clan” or “family” and/or referring to other kinship relations, including like a “maiden name” for women, as with the harem drama example above. *however*: there’s precedent for the MDZS-style “sect” naming structure within wuxia classical canon as far as referring to established organizations in a given novel go (caveat of I don’t know that much about those or how it’s treated in the text or in translation), and within MDZS usage I can also see why ExR made the decision to translate it to “Sect” when referring to the overall collectives, bc the members of the “sects” include not just the bloodline family members but also non-bloodline disciples who are followers of the sects, and I actually don’t think it’s a bad translation decision. It helps formalize the English translations of the “sect” names, and makes it clear(er) to an EN audience we’re talking about cultivation sects, and also helps to create a distinction for when we need to discuss the main “clan” (i.e. ppl of the bloodline of the founding families of each respective sect) within each respective “sect,” especially where other sects don’t make the distinction between “inner” disciples and “outer” disciples the way Gusu Lan does (a distinction which imo also is helped by calling the greater organization a “sect” and not a “clan,” bc otherwise we’d. probably get even more wank from anglophones arguing that “oh disciples are literally adopted into the family!!!!!!!!” and honestly there’s only so much bs I can take lmao. we already get enough “wwx is LITERALLY adopted” wank as is).

Kind of a last note and also a more context-dependent on the target-language-side approach to translation: I think the treatment of translating 氏 to “sect” as far as MDZS usage goes is, like, considering more certain “canonized” translations of certain terms & concepts from Chinese to English; with here the idea of using “sect” is because that’s the more “canonized” translation for a collective of ppl following a certain school of learning/thought in a cultivation setting.