#don't think about the reality tho <3 also. drink wine if possible

[pondslime]

what’s your lock screen, last song you listened to, last picture taken, and last movie you watched?

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📍tagging @visceravalentines, @crumb, @likedovesinthewnd, @ace-of-hearts-and-spades, and @rottent33th! if any of u guys are so inclined 💖

[pythiadidelphi]

On why Diotima of Mantinea (Socrates' teacher) deserves more credit than she's given and how Plato said Achilles was the bottom (among other things about The Symposium, by Plato)

(I give prove about the Achilles thing in the end. Stan Diotima.)

•Platonic love, originated from Diotima's ideas discussed in The Symposium:

Just saw a post on Instagram about how Plato said that you should date someone who's better than you in something because love is admiration and they can help you grow, a simplification of the original concept of Platonic Love. In The Symposium, Plato writes down what other philosophers think about Love (you know, all that stuff Aristophanes says about lovers being two sides of the same person divided by Zeus; and also Pausanias who, in the middle of a really sexist and messed up speech I would not recommend reading, makes half of a point saying that in a relationship there should be a young beloved who wants to be virtuous and a virtuous lover who's able to teach him. Tho Plato's version in which they have similar ages and complete each other is way better than this one so just ignore Pausanias) well all I can think about reading posts like this now is:

1) Half the time we say Plato said something it's because it's in a book written by him. But most of his books are just him writing down the things Socrates and his dudebros said while drinking wine and gossiping (they all get wasted in the end of that book).

2) Y'all remember Diotima? Diotima of Mantinea? Socrates' master? Yeah well everything Socrates and half the things Plato said she said before and better.

3) In this case, that post is simplifying the definition of platonic love, but the original ideas Plato used to originate this concept are Diotima's ideas.

For example, in this post I'm talking about, it says that your lover should have the qualities you lack. Diotima was the one who told Socrates about the balanced nature of Love, not being good or evil, fine or foul, ignorant or wise, but something in between that's endlessly longing for good and beautiful things. And then this knowledge came, through Socrates, to Plato, during the events of The Symposium.

•Extracts from The Symposium, when Socrates explains what his master told him about Love:

Diotima said (and the one who answers her questions is a young Socrates) -- "and you hear people say that lovers are seeking for their other half; but I say that they are seeking neither for the half of themselves, nor for the whole, unless the half or the whole be also a good. And they will cut off their own hands and feet and cast them away, if they are evil; for they love not what is their own, unless perchance there be some one who calls what belongs to him the good, and what belongs to another the evil. For there is nothing which men love but the good. Is there anything?" "Certainly, I should say, that there is nothing." "Then," she said, "the simple truth is, that men love the good." "Yes," I said. "To which must be added that they love the possession of the good? "Yes, that must be added." "And not only the possession, but the everlasting possession of the good?" "That must be added too." "Then love," she said, "may be described generally as the love of the everlasting possession of the good?" "That is most true." 

And with this she slapped Aristophanes in the face but that's a whole other topic, here I'm just illustrating what a genius mind this woman had.

Also next time a teacher asks you anything, answer like Socrates did Diotima: "Nay, Diotima, if I had known, I should not have wondered at your wisdom, neither should I have come to learn from you about this very matter."

After all he's the I know that I know nothing guy.

She also said-- "For love, Socrates, is not, as you imagine, the love of the beautiful only." "What then?" "The love of generation and of birth in beauty." "Yes," I said. "Yes, indeed," she replied. "But why of generation?" "Because to the mortal creature, generation is a sort of eternity and immortality," she replied; "and if, as has been already admitted, love is of the everlasting possession of the good, all men will necessarily desire immortality together with good: Wherefore love is of immortality." 

The secret history vibes.

"If you believe that love is of the immortal, on the same principle the mortal nature is seeking as far as is possible to be everlasting and immortal: and this is only to be attained by generation, because generation always leaves behind a new existence in the place of the old. [...] For what is implied in the word 'recollection,' but the departure of knowledge, which is ever being forgotten, and is renewed and preserved by recollection, and appears to be the same although in reality new, according to that law of succession by which all mortal things are preserved, not absolutely the same, but by substitution, the old worn-out mortality leaving another new and similar existence behind unlike the divine, which is always the same and not another? And in this way, Socrates, the mortal body, or mortal anything, partakes of immortality; but the immortal in another way. Marvel not then at the love which all men have of their offspring; for that universal love and interest is for the sake of immortality." 

Holy shit that woman.

Ok this is turning into a Diotima stan shitpost real quick so let me just

•state my point:

1) Plato was smart, and high-key classist and elitist, and low-key sexist, and really really high-key xenophobic, so as always, take everything these ancient smartasses say with a grain of salt.

2) The Symposium not only has a bunch of dudebros talking about love, we have a parenthesis in which Plato clarifies that Achilles was the bottom (beloved) and that's information you all need to have.

3) If you were to read The Symposium, I'd recommend reading only that part about Achilles which I'll leave at the end of this post, and what Socrates and Diotima say. And as a plus you could go to the very end and read how Socrates' boyfriend Alcibiades roasts him, compares him to a satyr, and then says his words always had and still have a great influence in him so he wouldn't want him dead (peak romance).

4) If you like ancient philosophy do yourself a favor and read about Diotima. Men from this time should've just shut up, listen to her, and drink their respect women juice cause the things Pausanias said could have been prevented if they had (like seriously, skip his part, he basically says that man-man soulmates are better than man-woman and woman-woman cause women are stupid, like........ this is why Darwin was like that huh?)

And now I bring to you, Achilles was a bottom and a twink:

As you can see, they said lover/beloved and not top/bottom and even tho at the time they were like "yeah the younger man who wants to be virtuous and good is the beloved and the older man who's already virtuous and good is the lover" we needn't use it that way now! You can totally bring it back if you like it :) It sounds really DA.

The fact that Plato went out of his way just to clarify this... he literally has 0 opinions about everything else in that book, he's just writing down what they say, but the second they imply something wrong about his otp he's like parenthesis you're wrong close parenthesis.

I'd do that tbh. Also if you wanna know more about Alcibiades and how he calls Socrates a satyrface but don't wanna read the book dm me and I'll send screenshots likely followed by very strong opinions on said screenshots.

Stan Diotima and have a good day!