#clovers (specifically four leaf clovers) are viewed as a symbol of luck which she's the princess of i believe

[mylittlestims]

uhmmmm maybe something for @ask-winner-drop ! -heart glasses anon

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[weapon13whitefang]

in the talking dead for the quiz they say that the box Michonne had, the things inside was inspired by To Kill a Mockingbird.If you've read the book the the Mockingbird represents someone innocent that has been injured or destroyed by evil(in the book Boo Radley,Tom Robinson,etc.) ( in the show I guess Rick can be a representation but mostly Beth in my eyes) considering the comparison of beth and birds lately, I would love to hear your opinion

Sorry it’s taken me awhile to answer you! I wasn’t ignoring you, I just had to find a way to really think about what you were asking and about the source material.

First off, I don’t watch Talking Dead anymore. I don’t have much like for Chris Hardwick after all the stuff I’ve learned about him and all the stuff that’s been proven�� Yeah I just can not watch Talking Dead without wanting to throw something at Hardwick… You know I don’t much trust ya when I won’t even watch for my favorite actors on the show… I don’t know, maybe he really didn’t do the crap that was said but… I’m not seeing any evidence against it… So I don’t watch Talking Dead.

That said, I have gotten a break down of stuff that was talked about. And I gritted through a few scenes of it to listen to my favorite actors talk… And let me just say that, yes. I know the book To Kill A Mockingbird. I don’t know if it’s just a Midwestern school thing, but for most Missouri kids I know, To Kill A Mockingbird was one of those books you read every year until senior year. The first time I read the book was in fifth grade, over fifteen years ago… I can still recall how I felt after reading it to… It’s just one of those books that sticks with you like Lord of the Flies or Romeo and Juliet or The Great Gatsby – those books teachers shove down your throat because they have such important life topics.

You mentioned how the Mockingbird represents “someone innocent that has been injured or destroyed by evil (in the book Boo Radley, Tom Robinson, etc.)”. And you’re right in that, this is the main theme of the book that most people will point out… Interesting to note, though, that Harper Lee was never forthcoming with the symbolism and themes. But she was famous for saying that the story spells out the meaning of a code of honor and the conduct in the heritage of the Southerners. Which makes sense if you look at in a simplistic term, sure. Honor is the high respect you have for someone or something. Conduct is the manner in which a person behaves, especially on a particular occasion or in a particular context.

An example of this is basically the whole thing with Tom and Boo. Bob Ewell is the town drunk and known to be one mean and cruel man. But because Bob is white, because Mayella is white, and because poor Tom is a man of color, the view of what they know is right vs what they see as right is truly shown. It’s very very obvious in the book that Tom Robinson is innocent and that the stuff he’s being accused of, are things he couldn’t and wouldn’t do. People of the town know what kind of man Bob Ewell is… But because Bob and Mayella are white that’s enough for people to turn a blind eye to it and sentence poor Tom to be hanged. It doesn’t matter all the proof that Atticus had. It didn’t matter if Bob Ewell had been caught red handed, even. Because Tom was a black man, he was doomed. Ignorance, racism, and hatred play a big role in the undertone of the book and it is those key elements that lead to an innocent being killed. It’s what leads to people like Boo and Tom being hurt. Bob Ewell was a symbol of evil in that he was a cruel, racists,and unbearable man. But because he was white, Tom – a black man that was the symbol of innocence with Boo – was screwed.

There’s so much you can talk about when it comes to this book. There’s themes and undertones that you can pick at and everyone would have a different opinion. For me, this is a book of studying the moral nature of a person; are people good or evil? It’s highly noted that a single person can be good or evil, while people as a whole can be evil or do good. As individuals, the jury would probably have agreed with Atticus and Tom would’ve lived. But as a whole – to uphold an image of “pureness” – they made an evil choice because of an evil man… Yet it’s more than that. Scout and Jem in the beginning of the book believe that all people are good and innocent because the two have never been exposed to evil and they believe people have never been around evil so that makes them good and innocent. By the end of the book, they both have experienced what evil is and have to come to understanding with it and their view of the world. It’s through Atticus – who is an example of being able to see evil but not letting it change him to evil but instead also see the good and learn to see people as a whole in that they have good and bad in them,that nobody is truly evil to the core, but that things in life lead them down these paths that aren’t always just good and evil. That the world isn’t black and white, heroes and villains. It’s gray. That’s how I always saw the book,anyway.

So taking into account that this book has many themes, how do they apply to the show? First off, letting me know that was kind of interesting for me. Thanks for sharing that because it got me thinking a lot… In the box, Michonne specifically pulls out three things. A preserved four-leaf clover, what appears to be baseball cards, and the little sheriff figure with the gun. Lets focus on these things fora bit before I get to the mockingbird (And I will, just hold on for a second!)

Coming from an Irish and German background, I always loved trying to find four-leaf clovers at my grandma’s house. First off, the four-leaf clover is a very rare plant to find because they just generally do not grow with four leaves. They’re kind of a mutation of sort, basically…Anyway, each leaf on the four-leaf clover has a meaning according to my grandma. Faith, Hope, Love, and Luck. The regular three leaf I learned in bible school that it represents the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit and if you found a four-leaf, the fourth leaf was God’s Grace. So, finding a four-leaf clover was basically really good fortune for you, as in the holy trinity is watching over you and giving you grace.

There’s a lot of symbolism around the four-leaf clover really. After doing some digging, I learned that apparently in some biblical background stories about the Garden of Eden, Eve took a four-leaf clover with her to remember the place she and Adam were cast from (that’s kinda depressing but I get it). I also learned that apparently Druid priest used the four-leaf clover to ward off evil spirits in worship rituals. Also, in some cases,children and adults would hang a four-leaf clover over their doors to ward off bad omens, witchcraft, and evil spirits. In the Middle ages, they believed that those that carried a four leaf clover could see the fae folk. It was also believed to help ward off and give protection from The Evil Eye – which is basically a legend about a malevolent spirit of evil casting misfortune to someone; cause them to harm themselves by casting eyes on them. So the clover was like a “shield” against this gaze.

If there’s one thing that has happened to TF, it’s the cast of the evil eye upon them. Rick is “dead” (so they think) and their world has been cast astray of what they all know – which is following Rick’s leadership. Even with Michonne taking over (she doesn’t let them call her the leader but she basically is) everything is still not together – they’re all scattered away from one another and all lost with Rick gone, even after all this time. Finding a four-leaf clover – one basically buried away in a tomb van – shows a prospering future for Michonne and TF. Something they could all use… The clover is linked to the box, which means it’s basically a box of memories for someone…Just as the clover was a memory for Eve, that clover was for someone else…

I find it fascinating the Morgan and Michonne both found“lucky” items in abandoned vehicles.

Next up is the baseball cards – or at least that’s what they look like – and I’m wondering if that’s supposed to represent Negan. Finding the clover then the baseball cards in order… I’m thinking Negan is going to have a big hand in the future. Now obviously I could be wrong and maybe they’re just school photos or something like that and maybe they have nothing to do with good for Negan. But you say baseball and I automatically think of baseball bat and then I think of Negan. Plus the cards were wrapped up – imprisonment symbolism? Michonne would be the only one who could truly let Negan free… I’m not to sure about these cards but I do feel Negan with them.

Finally the little sheriff figure. Obviously, it’s for Rick. But what does a Sheriff represent in general? Well first off the Sheriff is supposed to represent keeping the peace. A sheriff protects the peace, enforces law, provides traffic control, investigates accidents, transports prisoners,and leads a community. I work for a Sheriff department, as luck would have it(for me, anyway) and I can tell you something neat. The badge we all know – the star badge – was taken because it was cheaper and easier to make than the original badge – which was an eagle shaped/themed badge. Plus the star is a symbol of all fifty states and the Sheriff wears the star with his state and his county name printed on it. So it’s his American shield/symbol of bringing peace.

Rick being a Sheriff is really interesting for me since I started working with the Sheriff of my county. Throughout the last eight years of TWD, I have seen Rick do basically everything I just described above… But he’s also been very much the complete opposite of what a Sheriff is supposed to stand for. I mean Rick has murdered before. He stabs Shane after luring him into a false sense of peace, straight up put a machete through Thomas’s head at the prison, strangles a Claimer to death and rips the throat of another open…Like Rick has done a lot of shit a Sheriff shouldn’t do… But he is still a symbol of peace and future, which is what a Sheriff is.

So with those items aside, lets talk about a Mockingbird. In the book, there’s a quote about the Mockingbird, which is supposed to be part of the symbolism we talked about above. The line is said by Atticus and later affirmed by Miss Maudie, I believe. It goes as followed:

“Rememberit’s a sin to kill a mockingbird.” That was the only time I ever heard Atticus say it was a sin to do something, and I asked Miss Maudie about it.

“Your father’s right,” she said. “Mockingbirds don’t do one thing but make music for us to enjoy . They don’t eat up people’s gardens, don’t nest in corn cribs,they don’t do one thing but sing their hearts out for us. That’s why it’s a sin to kill a mockingbird.”

This line is the main line for the title of the book and is basically the key metaphor explored by people. It’s true that Boo and Tom are indeed part of this symbolism. The mockingbird is a symbol that good, innocent people are destroyed by evil. Tom is destroyed by evil and I believe he’s even likened to a songbird that was slaughtered by children (or something like that, I’d have to dig my copy out and really read it again… Which I just might…). For Boo, he was destroyed by the evil that is his abusive father long ago, but he was still just good and gentle and didn’t cause no harm and saved Jem and Scout. Scout even makes a wise comment that hurting poor Boo would be like shooting a Mockingbird – it would be a sin to punish something/someone who has done nothing but try to be a good soul.

I believe the reason they decided to use To Kill A Mockingbird for this episode is because of Magna, Yumiko, Connie, Kelly, and Luke… And for Michonne. Think about it. There’s a trial scene. At this point,Judith would be Scout and even a bit of Boo. Michonne is being a Bob Ewell (funny how that works) and Magna and her group are Tom Robinson.

Michonne bases Magna and the whole group on one simple thing– Magna was a convict. She basically riled up a lynch mob with everyone and made the group out as these monsters that would stab them all in their sleep…Just as Bob painted Tom as some kind of big violent rapist. Judith was basically Scout and Boo. Judith saved them and brought them in, but she also killed to protect them (sure they were just walkers but yeah). Think about the character Scout and the Character Boo and then think about Judith. Judith can basically be considered “innocent” (I use that lightly because the girl isn’t completely innocent, she knows things, but she’s not grown enough to experience what true evil is). Judith is Scout in that she sees these people and assumes “good” because it’s something she just sees. Now obviously Magna and them are good, but what if they weren’t? Judith wouldn’t be able to see it. It wouldn’t take much to pull the cloak over a child’s eye, even one as quick witted and smart as Judith.

I believe that’s part of the reason we had her speaking against Negan. What Negan says is true about people. They can look real nice and seem real nice, but they can turn on you real quick and do damage. Funny enough, Negan is basically an anti-Atticus in his own right. He knows what is real good and what is real evil, but he lets himself make his own choices and runs an evil path. Atticus knew the difference between evil and good but stayed good and kind. Which, yeah, Rick fits this mold with a little push… But it’s also Daryl who fits this role the most and that’s something as well.

Anyway, Michonne was basically going to get Mockingbirds killed. Magna and them haven’t done anything evil that we know of so they’re not far from sin, but they are people that have done no wrong to the people that have helped them and have shown to be good and even democratic (the whole voting scene) and that’s our evidence that they’re good people just trying to survive. Michonne would basically be doing what Scout told Atticus about Boo –it would be like shooting a mockingbird to send them off. And I agree that Rick would have helped them too… He would’ve been wary and he would’ve been watching the new people, but Rick would’ve given them a chance to prove themselves as good. Michonne wasn’t doing that. She was stone walling them out – being a child throwing rocks at the mockingbirds.

Now… I know you asked about Beth. The more I think about it, Beth was an Atticus. She knew the world was full of evil… But she knew there were good people and knew that you had to see people for their strengths and weaknesses to see their whole and see them for who they were as a whole. Beth was like Jem and Scout too. She hadn’t experienced real evil until watching her father be beheaded… But she wavered in her belief of good people with Dawn and that put her at how Jem was towards the end of the book. But if she were around now, Beth could’ve been an Atticus…

Which leads me back to Daryl. If there’s anyone that fits the mold of Atticus, it’s Daryl… At least he did. Right now I’d say he’s more of a Jem. Lost his faith in systems and his beliefs of there being anymore good people… By the end of the book, Jem becomes distant in his belief of good people and justice. Daryl was an Atticus but now he’s a Jem… But he can become an Atticus again, which I believe will happen as the season goes on.

To be honest with you, the only thing bird related I’ve seenwith Beth was the bird cage in her cell room back in season 4. The birdcage in media – art or otherwise – is generally a symbol of lost freedom for a bird but also a frame of appreciation for their natural wonder. The birdcage is a symbol as much as the actual bird encased. For example, when I hear someone speak of a caged bird I always think of Sweeny Todd and the song “Green Finch and LinnetBird” that Johanna sings. In the song, Johanna compares herself to the caged bird and how she is trapped in the judges house, how her dream is to be free of her imprisonment and also talks of her inability to cope with the fact she will probably never escape. It’s always that song that comes to mind when I think of a bird cage and honestly it’s probably the most symbolic image and song I can think of. A bird that sings jubilantly and carefree while trapped in a cage…Yeah. That sounds like Beth. She still sings and still shows peace and acceptance even when she is basically in a giant bird cage in season 4 – the prison.Later – in season 5 at Grady – Beth still sings and is still an imprisoned bird, but she’s not as jubilant as she was. Rather she is like Johanna – she is trapped and isn’t sure how she’s to get free. But unlike Johanna, Beth isn’t disillusioned to her captivity and knows she’ll get free.

Now what about a Mockingbird? Well let’s talk about the bird itself. I know some people like @twdmusicboxmystery believe that the bird Daryl sees in 9x06 is an Osciner bird – the Songbird. But I believe it really is supposed to be a Bluebird or a Mockingbird, which IS a type of Songbird. I’m leaning more towards it being a Mockingbird since that’s part of the story in9x06. So Mystery isn’t wrong, I just believe it’s a different type of songbird than what they think it is.

And if it is the Mockingbird – which I believe it is – then that’s also a symbol for Daryl in that he doesn’t kill the bird and he doesn’t destroy it’s food source with the walker. He doesn’t commit a sin. He lets it live. And seeing a bird feeding it’s young and letting it live is definitely Daryl as a Boo Radley. Boo Radley was horribly hurt by his own father – like Daryl– and shut himself from the world because he wanted to be away from all the pain and horribleness the outside world can offer. That is what Daryl has basically done – shut himself way from people and their societies to “protect” himself from their troubles and pain. Loosing Rick put Daryl there but since Tyreese’s death – yes even with Beth’s death – Daryl has been pulling away and it’s no surprise he reached that point with Rick’s departure.

I know I’m not giving some deep meaning into the whole “Here’s all this that shows that Beth could be alive” and for that I’m sorry. I know that’s what you wanted me to answer, was probably hoping for… But I don’t see much symbolism around this bird and Beth and Daryl. I believe the bird is representing the To Kill A Mockingbird theme and that Daryl has his place as Boo at the moment, but is also an Atticus in his own right but needs to find his balance again. Which Daryl has a balance, he’s just off kilter right now.Understandably so.

This isn’t me shitting on anyone. I believe too many people are putting TOO MUCH emphases on all these things being related to Beth. I don’t have any connection for birds and Beth except for one thing and that’s Beth back at the prison and while she was in Grady because of that birdcage. People want to point out Carl seeing a bird cage back in season 4 with a dead bird on the ground and I think that was to symbolize how Carl was feeling and what he was going through – that he was a bird that escaped a cage but he has a chance of dying like the bird, who was probably caged it’s whole life and once free it didn’t know how to care for itself. But Carl wasn’t going to be the bird. He was going to survive and carry his dad along. Which he did. Sure he dies later,but for that scene and for that moment, Carl didn’t let himself become the dead bird.

So… I guess – posting all of this – I don’t really have anything to add to Beth and Birds and symbolism besides to say that sorry I don’t have anything but maybe reading what I’ve posted will give you a thought to go with your connections for Beth?

Thanks for asking me, by the way. This was pleasantly stimulating.