#but they all have things going on Beyond what byler is getting up to

[campbyler]

wait how could the rest of the party not know about mike and will? they’re so obvious about it. did they not think anything when mike and will were cuddling and sleeping together on one sleeping bag? and what about how they almost kissed in front of everyone at the docks last chapter? will was clinging onto him in the water too! they gotta know a little bit

genuinely i do not think anyone is paying that much attention to them! i think it’s important to note that mike and will have had a very tumultuous relationship for years at this point in acswy canon, and as recently as the start of camp 2023 got into a huge fight — i think that the rest of the party is just grateful to see them get along and isn’t reading too much into it. although this is a mike and will centric story, the rest of the party has their own lives to worry about! what mike and will do beyond being friends and not making it awkward for the rest of them probably isn’t something they’re super concerned about :’)

[chirpsythismorning]

I'm not going to say we should take every single thing official Netflix accounts post as gospel, because obviously they are not run by the Duffer Brothers themselves.

But to be clear, these people are hired by Netflix and there's more to it than just random interns scheduling posts. The people running these accounts are not the same people designing the posts made there, just like the people designing those posts have higher ups telling them what to do/not do in terms of the content they are creating. And there are plenty more levels that go beyond that, which eventually does lead to the Duffers and producers of the show, who do have a stake in how the show is promoted on a basic level to best align with their intentions and all the revelations still to come.

It is common knowledge that the Duffers work with Netflix marketing directly on a consistent basis to get their vision across, and that carries out in promotion with posters, merchandise, social media, etc., because it's really important in ST case (with it being a show made by nerds that love easter eggs), that they foreshadow what is still to come outside of the show itself.

When it comes to social media, the core purpose of those accounts is to encourage engagement for Netflix's user base, ideally ensuring they tune in to whatever is being promoted (and more), but it’s also more than that, in that it’s even more based on data and other factors.

What this leads to is the people in those less major decision-making roles, like graphic designers, simply being advised what to create, based on the information and content they are given to work with.

And so these accounts going from promoting byler subtly for years, to blatantly posting about it post-s5, is actually very, very intentional, going beyond a simple Netflix intern. It’s orchestrated by those in management positions, being advised by those in the ST production to do things a certain way, so that when all is said and done, we are able to look back and find tiny little things that point to it.

Byler can't be something they NEVER talked about even once on social media, only to have them end up being endgame with them posting about it forever afterwards when it's all said and done. It doesn't work like that, at least not in ST case. We're talking about a production that costs hundreds of millions to make, as well as being the most talked about mainstream series of our generation.

They have an obligation to make their story feel not only satisfying on its own, but to also promote the show in a way that makes the viewer feel this whole well-rounded experience, outside of the show itself as well.

And so when ST came out in summer 2022 and Netflix Geeked was making posts about it non-stop, that wasn't a rogue, low-paid Netflix intern doing whatever they wanted. That was multiple people with a job given a task and following through with it at their advisers discretion. Regardless of where it ended up, it started at the top with the Duffers informing higher ups in marketing that Byler is something that will happen, along with other revelations that they want to inform marketing about, so they can take the steps to plan ahead and create content that matches the Duffer's vision, most often to act as a foreshadowing device for the story still unraveling.

Remember when Netflix Geeked made a post acknowledging that Will the Wise drawing in El's room back in s3?? A very well known byler easter egg that only we know about??? That wasn't some ga intern watching the show once and them spontaneously coming up with content to create related to that drawing and posting about it themselves. That was very likely someone associated with the show giving suggestions to marketing, with a few of them being very incriminating in relation to byler, but with most being casual in relation to the show overall.

Just like I said in this post about how Noah didn't tweet about byler or mention it multiple times at cons unprompted bc he was feeling quirky. He was being advised to...

And look what Netflix did to that tweet Noah posted that was clearly a stunt in an of itself.? They broadcasted it and made a cheesy ass edit out of it... And it's bc several people behind the scenes were advised to make content like that specifically.

I mean, if you actually look at how social media promotes byler (if and when it does), it's arguably in the exact way that the Duffers want it to be promoted?. Just enough. Not too little. Not too much. I would argue if the Duffers had no say whatsoever in how the show was promoted, then we'd either be seeing byler constantly or we wouldn't see them at all, instead we see social media sort of dance around it, which tells me they are following the exact approach the Duffers themselves follow... because they were obviously given the instruction to.

And so seeing an account like UK Netflix, an account that as of recent has really went all out with posting Queer content since Heartstopper released, has also notably made really incriminating posts about byler over the years, but especially as of recent. And that's in large part because of what I've stated, but also based on data.

If higher ups in marketing at Netflix know about byler, then they are very likely pushing people lower on the payroll, doing more simple tasks like graphic design and social media management, to make connections to ST with other shows like Heartstopper, Sex Education, Young Royals, etc. And this is because if byler IS going to end up being this huge Queer love story, data is telling them to make these connections sooner than later, so that the eventual revelation will be a smooth transition amongst other content just like it. This works in Netflix's favor at the end of the day, which is the whole point of all of this.

Not saying you should take the most casual of Netflix posts as byler endgame proof if that's what you're asking. But to say that these accounts have NO association with the Duffer's and ST directly, therefore we shouldn’t even appreciate anything they post if it points to byler, is sort of over-simplifying things.

It's not like s5 is gonna drop and all of these interns are going to be like OHHH okay now i'm a byler so i'll post about it... Going into s5 they're going to be making some very side eye posts and it isn't going to have anything to do with them being an intern without any say in things, its gonna be about them getting a task list and following through with it bc it's their job.

[love-byers]

the first time i saw this, when i was NOT a byler shipper, i thought el was running TO mike. i thought we were getting a sweet moment where el runs to mike and he puts an arm around her or hugs her.

then i realized she was running away from him. 

and i was like, why?? they're supposed to be the couple why does she not want his comfort??

and even after will calls her out on doing mike wrong by lying to him, even after she sees that mike is attempting to talk to her and comfort her, that he's not angry at her, she still tells angela to lie to mike. more lies. that's how much she cares about keeping up the persona. had angela lied to mike, el would've continued lying to him the entire week. something she knows in her heart is wrong and not fair to mike.

this is a theme in s4. putting who you want to be seen as before being honest with your bf/gf. going above and beyond to preserve your lie, to be seen as who you want to be.

chrissy does that with jason. who she portrays herself as is completely different than who she really is and what she's really going through. jason has absolutely no idea chrissy is struggling and refused to believe chrissy would buy drugs, because chrissy didn't want to tell him. who knows how jason would've reacted if chrissy was honest, we don't know because chrissy didn't trust him enough to tell him. that's not love at all, that's sad.

this is a point in s2 as well. murray calls nancy out for being afraid to be her true self, and she stays with steve because she doesn't have to be her true self around him. she is her true self when she's with jonathan, and that's why they worked together. that's love.

the exact same thing happens with chrissy. the first time we see her genuinely smile is when she's with eddie. she's sweet and charismatic, and had she lived she totally would've gone to eddie's show, something you never would've expected from her, something her boyfriend, the person she pretends to love, would NEVER do.

robin and steve reinforce this too

you fall in love with the person who makes you feel accepted, the person who makes you feel like you can be who you are. the person you trust with your true self.

mike and el don't trust each other enough, they don't understand each other well enough.

they would have to change their behavior towards each other by leaps and bounds, and we're already at the last season. there is no time for that. stranger things isn't a multi season show about the complexity of romantic relationships and the healthy way to resolve problems. there is no time for that in just about any movie or show, especially a sci-fi show. you know what's way easier and way more likable? pairing your character with someone they naturally click with, who bring out the best in each other and for some reason can't help but be their authentic selves when they're with each other.

did it with jancy, like i said earlier

did it with lumax. when lucas and max talked on the bus max found herself spewing about things she'd never even said out loud before, and she had to stop herself. something about lucas just made her feel comfortable, like she could be herself and tell the truth. she trusted him.

"You're nothing like your brother, okay? You're cool and different, you're super smart, and you're like, totally tubular."

jopper too! joyce constantly had to hide things from bob, she was insecure about their family not being normal.

"This is not a normal family."

"It could be."

though bob had good intentions, the message of the show is not trying to be normal when you aren't. whatever it is about you that makes you weird or different, whatever you've been through that changed you, stay true to it. dont bottle it up and try to be someone else. all of vecnas victims in s4 were doing this, and it didn't end well for them.

they even did it with dustin and suzie. dustin constantly tries to impress max with his teeth, then in season 3 he says suzie thinks kissing is better without teeth. he doesn't have to be insecure about that or try to impress her. she likes him for him.

mike isn't comfortable being his true self around el either. he's insecure about his interests, he feels like he has to act older and cooler to impress her.

you shouldn't be with the person you feel you have to impress. you should be with the person who relieves that pressure, who makes you feel like being the authentic you is enough.

jonathan and nancy, lucas and max, joyce and hopper, dustin and suzie,

cough WILL AND MIKE cough...

[howtobecomeadragon]

five years down the line some people are going to be like "hey did you ever watch stranger things? no? me neither, let's watch it. yeah I don't know much, just that Running Up That Hill is important and the bowl cut boy ends up with that other boy from when everyone was freaking out about it a few years ago"

and then they're going to watch and they're going to be like "aww Mike said he's the only one who care about Will" and then they're going to see El's introduction and one person is going to call a love triangle and the other will go "I mean it's the 80s and he's gay, he probably just feels pressured to like her." they'll laugh so hard they have to pause when El asks "will you be like my brother?" and they'll boo at the kiss

they'll go "aww" at the hand hold in s2, and get a little teary at the shed scene. they'll be a little 🤨 at El almost kissing Mike before going to the gate (one of them will shout "he's just not that into to you, El") and someone will point out how scared Mike looked. they'll freak out over the Snowball scene and see it for what it is.

they'll get sad over the rain fight and understand how slow of a burn it really is. they'll go "oh my god, poor Will, Mike just needs to talk about his feelings, it's obvious he's struggling. he loves Will, we KNOW they end up together, and he's acting different this season bc of it."

they'll get excited over the ramp up of Mike and Will's flirting in s4, bc finally, finally things are getting close. they'll be frustrated beyond belief at the monologue, throwing popcorn at their tv. "get it together, Mike! stop lying to her and go kiss your bf "

and then they'll watch s5, see the payoff, and they'll think wow, what a great slow burn. those crazy mother fuckers really pulled it off.

one person will say "I can't believe so many people were freaking out when they finally got together, it was so obvious." and the other person will shrug and say "idk we already knew it was coming. they didn't." and they'll both shrug and move on with lives. maybe that first person will tease their friend or family member who they remember complaining about byler post s5, going "it was right there in the show all along, were you even watching?"

[kiirotoao]

HEYYYY HANA! It's me olive/livy/ hey you/ that one person that always joins your lives I had a recent interaction with a more toxic mileven shipper but they said something that really did make me think so I want your thoughts in their words they said "mileven has been cannon for 8 years now why would they end it all at once" they had said this in the middle of a debate and it really got my thinking like would the duffers really end a relationship that has been built on for 8 years for byler? Plz lemme know what you think

OMG HI YOU 🤭 I’d be delighted to give my two cents, thanks for coming to me, Olive!!

Ah, yes. The age old argument of ‘why would the Duffers break up Mleven after building them up all this time?’ To which I say - what build up does one truly speak of? Yes, they’ve been canon romantic from season 1 since that kiss, technically, but their relationship only became truly canon since season 3. And yes, the show has been in production for about 8 years, but the show spans only about 3 years (1983-1986). Even then, to say that Mleven has been canon for that long just isn’t true. In total, they’ve only spent about 6 months together physically in canon (the fall, spring, and, summer of 1985 just before season 3 starts), and 6 months together long-distance (the summer, fall, and spring of 1986).

Point is, they’ve not been together as long as it seems. They’ve expressed interest from the start, but even then, on El’s side, it’s pretty debatable to me.

Take this scene where El literally asks Mike, “will you be like my brother?” I think I can just leave that there as it is.

Now, I do understand the notion that they’ve been in writing for 8 years. But guess who else have been? Mike and Will. Their relationship is just as if not more important to each other’s growths as characters, especially in season 4.

If you’re looking for canon relationships, look no further than Mike and Will’s friendship. If you need to see clear pictures of encouragement, understanding, and amendment, look no further than everything they’ve done for each other over the years.

All in all, I believe that just because you aren’t directly in a relationship with someone doesn’t mean that the current chemistry is void and only counts when you do get together.

Byler have chemistry, that’s why I think that they could easily get together. And by contrast, Mleven don’t. Throughout the seasons that Mike and El have been together, it’s been a struggle for them to connect. Whenever they do, it’s shallow. Take the reunion in season 4 - El is lying to Mike about being friends with Angela, and Mike is lying to El through his split focus on Will (when he complains about Will “rolling [his] eyes,” “moping,” “basically [sabotaging] the whole day”).

Mike is clearly affectionate to El, but he consistently dotes on her looks and never her character beyond her powers. El is clearly affectionate to Mike, too, but it’s clear to me that any time she reaches out to Mike, wrote to him, tried to talk to him in the void, anything, he just couldn’t seem to reach her in return.

Meanwhile, we have Byler promising to go “crazy together.” They sit and listen to each other. Meeting Will is “the best thing that [Mike has] ever done.” Mike thereafter in that scene talks about Will’s persistence. And we know that Will thinks of Mike as a leader, “guiding, inspiring.” Not only are they affectionate to each other, they’re comfortable expressing themselves around each other, highlighting each other’s positive traits, encouraging, supporting, connecting.

Need some people be reminded that filmwork is essential to TV, and so canonically Mike and Will also have many moments together. It’s not like their relationship isn’t known to us in canon (let alone blocked very specifically, too!).

So yeah, to that statement of “Mleven has been canon for 8 years now” so “why would they end it all at once” I say: it’s only been two years maximum in canon, and they’ve been founded on a deteriorating relationship with another much stronger one right in our faces, so no, yeah, Byler is very possible and wouldn’t be sudden in the slightest.

[bylrlve]

Warning! Potential spoilers for Stranger Things 5!

To recap, Alex received this dm on 13/2/23, seemingly confirming mileven breakup

She received this message on that day, which states that mileven are still together and happy. However it’s also instantly debunkable bc they’re absolutely not going to do the Hopper-Mike feud bs again. That is beyond clear.

On this past Tuesday, 20/2/23, she received a second message outright stating Mileven breakup.

Finally, on Wednesday, 21/2/23, she received this message full of pretty plausible statements, with mileven breakup included as fact. Interesting.

This person claims it’s all fake, with no rationale or alt info - what, is Will not important now?

Worth noting: Millie is currently doing promo for Damsels, so she’ll be out of commission re: filming for a few weeks. Early March is probably when she’ll come back, but Finn will be be busy with his Ghosbusters 2 promo.

Two conclusions:

1.) there will be no mileven scenes filmed for a few weeks. Filming schedules are very tightly planned to accommodate other actor commitments, so it doesn’t seem like this posed a massive issue. Hm.

2,) Millie will likely be doing any scenes she has with Sadie and Caleb, aka Max and Lucas, when she gets back. As this message says.

This person is probably just smart and well-informed enough to figure this out, but it’s interesting.

There has been some very intriguing activity on a stranger things set a few days ago - red UD ligthing, castle Byers.., and Will Byers. Will’s plotline for season 5 seriously looks like everything us Will stans have been dreaming of in terms of plot relevance, emotional catharsis, etc. This pic dropped yesterday, and the spoiler acc seems to have confirmed it’s Will:

Lastly,this also dropped today:

(Credit to @1987byler on twt)

Very strange framework, here. If the goal is to set up Will being rejected gently by Mike, but understood and accepted, why not focus on that? Why not have Vecna say ‘you’re afraid he’ll be disgusted by you. You’re afraid he’ll see you as the disgusting, broken boy you are’ or something like that? Elsewhere in the game, it’s being reported by players that Will is being taunted about how his friends are all ignoring him, and how Max fits into the group better than he does. This is canonically a sore spot for him - not so much the Max part, but the general point. So why not emphasise his fear of Mike’s rejection, rather than his hurt at Mike picking El over him?

Maybe because, if this is carried into s5 and we get scenes of Vecna taunting Will about Mike choosing El, it’ll be certain that Mike will indeed pick Will. Maybe this is a means of hinting that?

(Side note: at this point in the time line, El was really just a concept to Will. The one time he met her, it was for barely a minute as a delirious, dying child. By s4, it’s very clear that they’re close and loving. I’ll hear no critique of him for apparently not wanting her to come back - it’s very obviously Vecna twisting things, as he did with Max in s4 to make it seem like she actively wanted to murder Billy.)

Also worth noting: the best Mike can say about the girl he supposedly loved at first sight, after a whole week with her, is that she’s ‘cool’, ‘different’, ‘awesome’. Very lacklustre. Compare to how Lucas would describe the comatose max to a newcomer in s4.

Finally: Will quite literally utilises a never-seen memory of Mike and him in Castle Byers as his happy menory, his safe place. You know,like the Snow Ball and those other memories of good times with Lucas that Max clung to in s4?

Credit to @will80sbyers

This post by @nebulousfishgills reports Vecna saying that Will is ‘the key’, manipulating Will’s memories, and directly saying “You’ll finally matter to someone, Will.” Byler kind of has to be endgame, right? For this to make any sense as a narrative? ‘We can still be friends’ won’t cut it, not if, as the messages Alex is getting make out, Will is still so achingly in love post-time jump that he’s staying by Mike’s hospital bed after everyone else leaves and kissing his forehead (a). Not if they’re still emphasising that Mike is his safe place, his home, his light, in (technically) pre-season five promotional material.

All of this is… interesting, to say the least.

I’ll leave off by sharing the posts made by the wonderful @solgmorell on the set leak (x) and the VR byler stuff (x, y).

(a)

ETA: two of the previous dms Alex has gotten state that Will struggles with his friendships with the other party member this season due to being closeted. This game touches heavily on Will’s feeling disconnected from his friends, at least partly bc of his sexuality…. One is above, the other is here:

[glisten-inthedark]

I broke this into 2 asks because it’s so dang long lol

(Part 1)

Tbh I think the thing that recently really sold me on M/El not being endgame, even if Byler also isn’t endgame (but with more of a chance of being endgame) is the painting & Will’s speech

The writers have to address it in season five. Like that’s straight up non negotiable from writing perspective. Frankly, it would just be bad writing if they don’t bring the painting up in season five because neither Mike nor Eleven know the truth. El has no idea that Will lied about the painting being from her and she doesn’t even know that the painting Will was working on was for Mike. Mike has no idea that Will lied about the painting being commissioned by El and that the words that he said were his, not El’s. They can’t leave this unresolved in season five! It would not make any sense!

Plus, Mike and El need to have a resolving discussion about where they stand since they ended s4 not speaking to each other beyond a couple words. We the audience have that resolution. It’s not something that can happen offscreen, even if they do breakup offscreen prior to the start of s5 we eventually need them to sit down and resolve their relationship for the audience’s sake.

So, what could happen when Mike finally brings up the painting to El? If El took credit for commissioning the painting and the words that Will said, then it’s still an unresolved plot point because El knows that she’s lying and Will would eventually realize that she lied and the audience would know that she lied and we’d be waiting for the other shoe to drop. Plus, I just don’t think El would do that. Even if she wanted to, she wouldn’t be able to lie that fast lol, her confusion about the painting would shine through.

So, what? She tells Mike that it wasn’t her and yet they still get back together or reaffirm their romantic relationship? And this is where it really gets me. Because either Mike or Eleven or both would have to say something that is more heartfelt, honest, emotional, and affirming than what Will said in the van. And I don’t think Mike should have to! He already gave his I love you speech to El, and it would not make sense to me for them to write another ily speech from Mike to El but this time with better and more personal details of what he loves about her beyond her being a superhero. It would just feel repetitive and make the audience go. “well then why didn’t he say that in s4? Why did they drag this out into s5?” Yeah, every Byler fan knows that Mike’s I love ily speech to Eleven is rather lackluster because he pedestalizes her in it once again, but the general audience doesn’t necessarily realize that. I didn’t realize that until recently! So to the GA, his speech isn’t framed as anything to resolve or fix! So them rehashing it in s5 in order to put M/El back together will feel clunky, especially if they had a subplot of Mike basically needing to figure out how to say I love you “the right way” to El which, just……that poor dead horse, stop beating it please! Even the GA will be annoyed I bet.

ATTENTION!

This answer will get very long, so please be patient with us! I'll add my thoughts under the cut.

Part 2 and 3 of the Anon Ask

Plus—that would place all the onus back onto Mike when we’ve seen that El doesn’t make him feel like more than a loser nerd. She doesn’t mean to make him feel that way (I love El sm, fr) but we see in the van that Mike views her as out of his league, despite the fact they’ve been dating for a while now and have known each other for years, and says some disparaging things about himself. So imo, in s5, it would make more sense for it to be El’s turn to tell Mike how she feels about him beyond “I love you,” all the things she loves and appreciates about him & whatnot, EXCEPT:

1) if Mike doesn’t rehash his ily speech with more personal and less pedestal-y things he loves about El, it’s essentially tell the audience that there was nothing wrong with his OG ily speech and it should be accepted at face value, which, yikes….

2) whatever El says to Mike needs to be just as vulnerable, genuine, lovely, uplifting, and romantic as what Will told him in the van, if not more. Because if it’s not, I think even the GA will be disappointed. If El doesn’t make Mike feel as appreciated and needed and loved as he felt in the van, then why are they even together? It could make even the GA a bit sad that Will loves Mike the way Mike wants to be loved, the way El doesn’t make him feel, (the way Mike will find out, via the painting, Will does) but Mike is with El despite this. It would feel like a strong, genuine love is right out of reach from Mike, and like he’s settling or missing out

3) even if it is “just as, if not more” all those things, it’ll be hard to not make it sound like Will’s speech, especially since what Will said to Mike clearly meant a lot and is likely how Mike wants to be loved, especially the part about being needed. Mike clearly wants to be needed, to feel necessary, useful. Tbh, it was explored more in s1 & s2, but Mike’s a caretaker! And I don’t think El wants a caretaker beyond Hop & Joyce, so I don’t think she’d say what he wants to hear.

So, what? Do Mike & El reaffirm their relationship, have a resolving discussion where they get back together, and THEN the painting gets brought up? And then, what—Mike realizes El didn’t say or think those things about him? How would that not sour their relationship once again? Because Will told him, “You’re the heart!” which implies to the audience that part of why Mike felt he could say ily was Will’s speech. Like, “This is how she feels about me, I need to tell her I love her!” except that wasn’t how she felt/thought about him. In order to not sour their relationship again, #2 would need to apply, or else Mike may question how El even feels/what she thinks about him

Worst case scenario would be that Mike finding out the truth somehow results in M/El staying together and Mike going to let Will down easy, but…….literally how do M/El stay together after all this? And why end s4 with them not speaking if Mike supposedly did everything right with his speech? It would just be bad writing, plain & simple

Unfortunately I still think there’s a possibility of an outcome where neither Byler nor M/El are endgame, but bc of all this pointing toward M/El not being endgame, I think there’s a strong chance Byler will be—waaaayyyyy moreso than M/El, for sure.

oh and I realized I didn’t make it clear, parts 1 & 2 were all speculation regarding how M/El could possibly get back/stay together in s5 & why I don’t think route where M/El is endgame makes sense, writing-wise

In terms of actual predictions, I think, with all that considered, the most likely scenarios to happen in s5 are:

Mike & El talk about their relationship, Mike brings up the painting, they realize what happened, they amicably break up, Byler endgame

All of that except the order is switched, where they amicably break up and then Mike brings up the painting, thanking El for it, bam truth, bam clarity, Byler endgame

Either of those except Mike lets Will down easy instead, Mike ends the season single & Will is either also single or gets a random, half-assed love interest as an unsatisfying consolation prize (this outcome would still devastate me but it’s not impossible, sadly)

My thoughts

About the painting: They will definitely bring it up, not only for all the reasons you've mentioned but because it has been pivotal to the story as a whole.

Because this is what we have: Will loves Mike > Will makes a painting for Mike > Will assumes Mike doesn't and will never love him so attributes his own feelings to El > Mike may or may not believe that the painting is indeed from El > If Mike has feelings for Will and understands what he meant, he's elated but also working through what that means for them > If then Will tells him "he's the heart" as a way to get Mike to confess his feelings, Mike is disappointed but he does nonetheless because he does love El, but not like that > But it doesn't work and El loses, as we saw.

The very existence of Will's love informs his actions but also informs where the story goes.

It's not just that it'd be bad writing, it's that the fact that Will's feelings for Mike exist to create a painting is pivotal to the story, without them, everything would've been different.

As to a discussion between El and Mike: One important thing to note is that before leaving, El signs her note to Mike as "From El", in a clear callback to the fact he doesn't sign Love, Mike. This alone tells us everything we need to know. So El isn't going to lie, not only because she's against it, but because she would also be confused but she isn't stupid, it won't take much for her to put the pieces together and figure out what's going on.

And the thing about them reaffirming their romantic relationship, it doesn't seem to be their intention. The writers make it clear with every couple that two people don't need to say that they love each other for the feeling to be real or for it to be noticeable.

Jancy doesn't say I love you, Jopper doesn't say it, Lumax doesn't say it because they don't have to. (I didn't say it, you didn't have to). When you love someone, you show them with body language, with actions, in everyday actions, but Mike clearly doesn't because needs to beg for him to say it.

The fact that El didn't even speak with Mike for two days when she had ample opportunity to do so shows us a little bit of where her head is at. I don't think she wants to get back together with Mike, and as you said, them staying together only for the painting to be brought up

And to add to your points about El and Mike being together, another thing: If they wanted that to happen, they could have found a way of having Mike with El at the Nina Project. And beyond that, they wouldn't have made Will fall in love in the first place.

All your points about the painting are spot on, and honestly, they could've addressed it already because a lot is going on already without adding this to the mix.

I already said this before, but the choice of Will loving Mike means something will be sacrificed, whether is Will's happiness or Mike's relationship with El.

Because honestly, Will doesn't have a crush on Mike, he doesn't just like Mike. No, he's ready to push Mike towards El, to sacrifice his chance at even a friendship with Mike for his sake. Will is ready to cut himself open and watch himself bleed for Mike.

This isn't someone that can just "get over" Mike and the curious thing is that I don't have to tell you that, Will did. " El (I) need you, and she (I) always will". The writers made him say that, we didn't make it up.

But yeas, all of your points are valid about Mike and El, because even on the 0.00001% chance of Byler not being endgame, neither should Mil*ven.

[heyitspersephone]

Thinking about stranger things again now that the strikes are over and how, narratively, it would be way, WAY cooler to have Mike get Vecna’d instead of Will in s5

It’s just something about the way Mike’s trauma is never addressed or handled in any way?? Like, he hugs his mom twice and then when he was depressed in season 2 and 4 nobody did anything (his parents scolded him for his behavior in s2 ig but that’s not support). His best friend went missing leaving from his house, he watched his body get pulled from the quarry, watched El (in his eyes) kill herself stopping the demogorgon, watched Will be possessed, saw Bob die, was in Star Court when everything went down, saw Billy die, had his best friend move away, was SHOT AT (and really too few people talk about the shooting in Cali bc omg??), buried a body, and watched the apocalypse start. And that’s just off the top of my head.

(And yes I’m aware that the other characters (especially Will) are traumatized too but I will get to my point in a second just hold on)

The plot is geared towards this idea that Will and Henry have to have some big face off (and they should, in my opinion, but I don’t think it should be in a possession, or at least not the the Vecna kind of possession, yk?) but that makes it all the better, writing wise, to have mike be the one in danger. Will was helpless and hiding in s1, I think Will should get his big strong moments in s5 where he gets to be the hero of the story.

It would just be a lot more fun to work with Mike being Vecna’d than Will, because what are we going to bring up with Will’s visions? His dad? His sexuality? The events of s1 from his perspective? It would be cool to see, for sure, but we already know most of that. Mike, on the other hand, has a number of untapped things, like jumping off the quarry, why he’s so hesitant to tell El he loves her, how someone who was smart and kind enough to take El in in s1 and come up with the spy and sauna plans in s2 and s3 could turn into the oblivious asshole that he was in s3 and s4 (he needs therapy, ik, I still love his character but I want to explore the reasons he went from his s2 characterization to his s3 one)

It would be a very interesting parallel, I think, to explore Mike’s thought processes in this way, especially with all of Mike’s repression business (bc whether you ship byler or milkvan he is repressing his feelings HARD. Like, beyond his inability to say I love you there’s the fact that he doesn’t bring up the apparent many times he called pre-s4 during the Rink O Mania fight?? That literally would’ve absolved him of guilt in that argument since he WAS reaching out to Will the whole time? Hellooooo????).

Anyways, this all brings me to my main point: Vecna targets isolation as much as he targets trauma and guilt. The whole party was traumatized by the events in s1, s2, and s3, but Max was the one targeted. Plus, Henry went for Fred, Chrissy, and Patrick (I think his name was Patrick) instead of going for the perceivably easy targets that the mcs would make (ik narratively that would’ve made it more boring but shhh), so why Max and those three specifically? They were isolated. Lucas and Erica have each other, Dustin goes to Steve and Robin, Will and El have each other and Jonathan and Joyce, Nancy probably goes to Jonathan, and who does Mike go to?

No one. And don’t say Nancy because if those two have heart to hearts then I’m the next coming of Christ. Max separated herself from the Party in the aftermath of her grief and guilt over Billy, and it feels quite obvious that Mike was doing the same (like I said, he has repression issues). So Mike is traumatized, alone, and guilty (be it Will getting taken from Mike’s house, losing El in front of him multiple times, the many deaths he has witnessed, or the internalized homophobia angle), which makes him more of a target than Will, in my opinion (or at least an easier one, especially given his tendency to put himself on the line during fights (quarry, most of s2, s3 mindflayer fight), which would set him up on the suicidal ideation path)

Furthermore, as I’ve seen a few other people point out (and I can’t find the posts but one of them had eight screenshots of the various moments), Mike is always the one getting in the way, so it would be a strategic move for Henry to target him to get him out of the picture. Mike was the one that found El and got her involved in saving Will s1, he was the one who came up with the spy plan and called out the ambush in s2, he was the one to monologue Will out of his possession s2, he was the one with the sauna plan for Billy in s3, he was the one trying to help El get the strength to fight s4 (even if the monologue sucked ass it’s the intention that counts). As much as people like to hate on Mike, he is in the leader position most of the time when the party is grouped up (barring his mental health struggles slowing that down beginning of s3 and throughout s4, but he’s still capable of it). He’s the idea man, and he’s the one whose character’s foundations were built on the desire to keep his friends safe, so it would be a very fun plot line to watch him be the one targeted in s5. Like Will said, as lovestruck and cheesy as he was, Mike is the heart of the party when he’s on his A-game, so Henry should 100% be trying to keep him in the issues he’s been struggling with.

Obviously, Will and El are the Targets with a capital T for Henry since they’re the ones that got away or whatever, but I think Mike is a weakness of Will’s (and El’s tbh but also I think they need to have separate character arcs and I don’t exactly ship milkvan) that should be exploited.

TL;DR: Mike should get Vecna’d instead of Will in s5 because it would make sense in lore and be a very cool way to resolve his character arc

[astrobei]

anonymous prompt: “this isn’t byler but do you think you could write some hopper trying to achieve some step-son stepfather bonding time with a reluctant Will?”

As it turns out, in some weird subversion of all of Jim Hopper’s expectations, teenage girls are a hundred times easier to figure out than teenage boys.

El had been a bit of a blank slate at first. She liked Eggo waffles and daytime TV and when Jim put his records on, she didn’t complain. Maybe she just didn’t know that there were other types of music out there, but as far he was concerned, there wasn’t much worth knowing about that wasn’t Jimi Hendrix anyway.

And then things started falling into place a little. El liked Eggo waffles, but she liked them most with the kinds of toppings on top that he wasn’t supposed to technically be eating anymore– whipped cream and candy and enough sugar to induce a heart attack twenty years early.

She liked the daytime TV just fine, but she liked it better when he watched it with her, telling her what all the unfamiliar words meant. Word of the day, he’d said as a joke, when she’d asked what infatuated meant. The irony of that wouldn’t hit him for another year or so.

She liked Jimi Hendrix okay, but he suspects that she actually just liked watching him dance around to the records more than she did any guitar riff, no matter how captivating they might have been. He doesn’t blame her. He’d never claimed to be a good dancer, but he sure could be an entertaining one.

So this is where he stands, currently. Teenage girls are fine. Teenage boys are, actually, a mystery beyond comprehension.

Or maybe it’s just Joyce Byers’ teenage boys that are hard to figure out.

Yeah. That’s probably it.

Jim’s sure he hasn’t been like this when he was younger. He’d been very straightforward about his interests: his dad’s vinyl collection of 50’s rock ‘n roll, the chocolate milkshakes at the local diner, and cutting class to smoke with Joyce Byers under the east wing stairs.

Some of these more so than others, maybe, but they’d been very simple interests all the same. Nicking Marlboros from his dad’s jacket pocket when he wasn’t looking, then slipping them into Joyce’s waiting fingers as she slid into the stairwell next to him. He’s pretty sure his dad knew where the cigarettes had been going, and he’s also pretty sure he didn’t care.

“What are you smiling about?”

Seventeen-year-old Joyce vanishes in a puff of stale smoke, and suddenly, she’s here in front of him again. The real thing this time, not a hazy, memory-worn apparition– faded cotton shirt, plaid flannel pajama pants. Smiling down at him, holding a pan of scrambled eggs in one hand and a spatula in the other.

Jim raises his eyebrows. “Nothing.” He shakes his head as she spoons eggs onto his plate. “I just– I haven’t seen you smoke in a while.”

Joyce huffs out a small laugh as she slides into the chair next to him. It’s early, barely seven in the morning. The kids don’t usually get up until well into the midmorning on summer days like this, so early mornings are for them and them alone. “I’m trying not to. El doesn’t like the smell.”

“Oh. She told you?”

“Will did.”

“Ah.” He takes a careful sip of his coffee. “What about Will? He doesn’t mind it?”

He can’t see Joyce’s mouth behind her mug, but her eyes are definitely smiling. “He doesn’t like it either. He just stopped saying so after a while.”

“Yeah, that sounds like him.”

Joyce laughs again, this time as she squirts a generous dollop of ketchup on her plate. “What, you didn’t kick the habit when you were locked up?”

“Oh, no,” Jim chuckles. “No way. I thought I would, for a while, but– it’s true, you know, what they say about cigarettes being worth as much as gold in there.”

“Really?”

They don’t talk about Russia much– at least not out here. Not in the morning, not after a good night’s sleep, not in the kitchen, where things are supposed to be happy and warm and filled with light. This isn’t the place for it– for things that are dark and cold and desolate, for monsters or funerals or death.

He clears his throat. “Hey,” he says instead, “listen, I was thinking.”

“Oh, yeah? About what?”

“I was thinking, maybe,” he starts, speaking more into the inside of his mug than to Joyce, now. “Maybe I’ll take Will out for the day. Do something together.”

If Joyce is surprised at all, it doesn’t show. “Yeah? To where?”

“I hadn’t thought that far ahead,” he admits, and she gives him an amused look. “I wanted to ask you first.”

Now she looks surprised. “What? Why?”

“I don’t know,” Jim shrugs, “he’s your kid! I didn’t want to cross any boundaries, or–” He trails off at the look on her face. “What?”

Joyce ducks her head, smiling softly. “No, that– that’s sweet, Hop. If he’s okay with it, then I’d love for you two to do something together.”

“Really? You think he would?”

“I–” Joyce starts, and then gets a contemplative look on her face. “You know he adores you, right?”

“Please,” Jim snorts, “he’s a sixteen year old boy. He doesn’t adore anybody.”

“Except–”

“We don’t talk about Wheeler before noon, Joyce,” Jim interrupts, and then Joyce is throwing her head back in another laugh. It’s a nice look, Jim thinks, maybe not as privately as he’d like. He’s sure she can tell exactly what’s on his mind.

“Okay! Sorry! But yes, of course. Go have a day out, just the two of you.”

“Okay,” he agrees, then takes a sip of coffee. “Okay. Sounds good.”

—-

The issue here is that given Joyce Byers’ infamous overprotectiveness, he’d thought acquiring her blessing to have a bit of adoptive father-adoptive son bonding would have been the hard part. And now he’s standing in front of Will’s room, hand raised to knock, feeling just about as jittery as he had when he had to give the Wheeler kid the shovel talk. 

Both times.

Now or never, Jim, he thinks, because for all of his bravery fighting monsters and Russians and that time he broke his own ankle and ran through miles of snow on foot, this doesn’t compare. This is Will. This is Joyce’s kid. And he doesn’t know why that makes him so nervous, but it does.

You can do it. It’s just a teenage boy.

He sighs, and raises his fist.

“Yeah?” Will’s voice is faint from behind the door. “Come in.”

“Hey,” Jim says, and then steels himself, gathering every remaining bit of courage in his body to say, “you got a minute to talk?”

Will raises his eyebrows. “Sure,” he says. It’s wary, cautious. He sits up further, from where he’d been reclining back on his pillows. “What’s up?”

It doesn’t take a genius to see that he’s on edge. Jim supposes maybe this is a bit out of the blue, so he tries to relax, tries to make sure his body language reads I come in peace. “What are you reading?” he tries, nodding towards the book in Will’s hands.

“Um.” Will turns it over, looks at the cover like he has to remind himself. “It’s Slaughterhouse Five. Jonathan gave it to me,” he says slowly.

Jim lets out a low whistle. “Damn. That’s impressive, kid. Is it any good?”

Will shrugs. “It’s okay so far. I just started though.”

Jim doesn’t know enough about Slaughterhouse Five to keep this conversation going with any merit, so he figures maybe he should just cut to the chase. “Hey, listen,” he starts, and Will’s eyebrows creep a little farther up his forehead. “I was thinking of spending a day out. Go for a drive, grab some lunch. You want to tag along?”

“Oh,” Will says. “Um.” He holds up his book. “I was thinking of getting ahead on this, actually.”

Jim Hopper has braved Russian prisons, secret labs, an underground dimension, his own faked death, and being stood up by Joyce Byers. This is fine.

“Okay,” he says, “that’s fine. No worries.”

“Sorry,” Will adds for good measure, still half-upright on his bed and looking very much like he does not want to be having this conversation.

“Seriously,” Jim says, already backing out into the hallway. “It’s okay. Have fun with the book, kid.”

—-

“He hates me, Joyce.”

Joyce shoots him a look as she climbs into the passenger seat of the car. “He does not hate you, Hop. Maybe you just caught him off guard.”

Jim groans, putting the car in reverse. “I knocked before I went in!”

“Jim.”

“What?”

Joyce pulls the cigarette out of his mouth and drops it into the ashtray. “Please don’t smoke in the car,” she chides. And then, “Well, what did you say to him?”

“I asked him about his book, and then if he wanted to tag along with me while I–”

“Okay, I’d say that caught him off guard a little.”

“How?” Jim exclaims, and then Joyce laughs.

“I don’t know! Will’s just– he needs a second, okay, Hop? Don’t take it personally. I promise he does not hate you.”

“Okay,” he grumbles, as they turn the corner past the high school. “One more shot, and then I’m accepting the fact that both your kids hate me.”

“Jonathan doesn’t hate you either,” Joyce says, but she looks like she’s fighting back a smile. “He just– he doesn’t show affection like that.”

“They hate me,” he repeats, accelerating down the backroad. “They both hate me.”

—-

Attempt #2 goes better. Somewhat.

“Hey,” Jim says as he walks through the door the next evening. Will is curled up on the couch, sketchbook open on his lap. He looks up as the door opens, startling slightly, then relaxes.

“Oh. Hey, Hop.”

Hey, Hop, he thinks. That’s better than Hello, Chief.

“Is your mom home?”

Will shakes his head and looks back down. “She’s at the Wheelers’. She’s having, um. Wine night. With Mike’s mom.”

“Oh, okay.” Jim pauses. “Hey,” he starts, and Will looks back up. “Listen, I don’t suppose you want to watch a movie or something tonight?”

Will blinks. “A movie?”

You’ve come back from the dead, Jim, he thinks. This is just a sixteen year old boy. He shrugs. “Yeah, you know, everyone’s out for the evening. Thought we could make a night of it, just us two.”

“Um.”

“You can pick,” Jim offers, tossing his hat on the kitchen table. “I won’t judge your taste, I promise.”

Will’s lips twitch upwards at the corners, ever so slightly. “I have good taste,” he protests, and Jim shrugs, like sure! Okay! “But I can’t today. Um. Sorry.”

“Oh. Big plans tonight?”

“Actually,” Will starts, pursing his lips. “Mike and I are grabbing dinner soon.”

Oh. Oh. Okay. It’s a bit of a low blow, getting passed over for the Wheeler kid, but it’s fine. Jim can roll with the punches. “Huh. Anywhere good?”

Will shrugs, but he looks like he’s on the verge of a smile. “Just the diner on Main Street.”

“Oh, the diner,” Jim laughs, pulling out a chair. “I used to go there every day when I was your age, actually. Best milkshakes on this side of Indiana.”

“Yeah?” Will puts his pencil down. “What was your order?”

“Ham and cheese. And a chocolate milkshake,” he answers immediately. He dreamt about those milkshakes, thought about them during long, cold nights behind bars, nothing but prison-grade gruel to fill his stomach. Comfort food. The kind of memory you hold on to longer than you’d expect.

“I get ham and cheese too,” Will says, and then he looks a bit surprised at himself, like this was something he didn’t mean to say. “Except I get, um. I get strawberry instead.”

Jim pretends to think it over. “Strawberry’s good,” he admits, “but not good enough.”

“Hey!” Will says, laughing. “Come on. Chocolate is so boring.”

That feels like a win, even if it’s a small one. He’s smiling before he realizes it. Making light banter over milkshake flavors shouldn’t be this exciting, not for someone like him, not for someone who’s been through what he has, but–

“You need a ride?” Jim holds up his car keys, still clutched in one hand. “I can drop you off.”

The smile fades slightly from Will’s face. “Oh, um. Mike’s picking me up, actually. In, like, ten minutes?”

“Wheeler can drive?”

“He got his license last month,” Will says, picking at a loose thread on the blanket. Jim’s first instinct is to protest– something about that’s not safe, and I don’t know if that’s the best idea, but he bites his tongue.

If Mike Wheeler can kill monsters, he can drive a car just fine. Probably.

“Okay,” he says at last, standing up and grabbing his hat. “Have fun, kid. Tell Wheeler to drive safe. Five under the speed limit. It’s my buddies on patrol tonight, remember.”

Will looks like he simultaneously wants to laugh and groan. “Yeah. Yeah, thanks, Hop. I’ll tell him.”

“Have a milkshake for me,” Jim says, then slinks off to his room.

Okay. That could’ve gone worse.

—-

“Okay, I don’t think he hates me.”

Joyce gives him a look like see? “I told you he doesn’t hate you,” she says, reaching across him for the olive oil. “What did you say this time?”

“Something about watching a movie,” Jim says. “I was– God, okay, Joyce, can you take over the onions for me?”

Joyce laughs, and says, teasing, “Broke your way out of a prison but chopping onions is too much?”

“This is why I don’t cook,” he says, then makes his way over to the record player in the corner of the living room. “I’ll take over music duty.”

“Sure,” Joyce calls. “You don’t cook because of onions.”

Steely Dan crackles to life as he turns around. “Oh, yeah,” he grins, “this is it. This is the good stuff.”

“Jim,” Joyce laughs. “What– are you supposed to be dancing?”

Hey, he’s said it before. He’s not the best dancer, but he’s definitely an entertaining one. “Times are hard,” Jim croons along, and Joyce’s laughter grows. “You’re afraid to pay the fee–”

“You’re awful,” Joyce shakes her head, even as Jim grabs a hold of her hands. “And– Hop, my hands are all onion-y.”

He ignores her. “When you need a little bit of lovin’–”

“Ew,” comes a voice from the hallway, and Jim turns around.

“Hey, hon,” Joyce says absentmindedly, dropping his hands and wiping hers on the towel. Onion, she mouths at him. “What’s going on?”

Will shoots him a bit of a strange look. “Sorry. I was just wondering when dinner was going to be.”

“Twenty minutes?” Jim offers, then grins. “Thirty if your mom tries to put me back on onion duty.”

Will crinkles up his nose and turns in the direction of the living room. “What are you playing?”

“I don’t wanna do your dirty work,” Jim belts out in response. Joyce and Will stare, identical dumbfounded expressions on their faces. “Steely Dan?” Jim offers.

Nothing. Apparently he’s dating into a family with zero taste.

“Sorry,” Joyce shrugs. “It’s cute, though!”

Cute! He squints in Will’s direction. “You too?”

Will mirrors Joyce’s shrug. “Sorry. It’s not really my thing.”

“Oh? What’s your thing, then?”

Will stands up a bit straighter. “I don’t know,” he says. “Um. I like The Cure. Stuff like that.”

“The Cure,” Jim muses. “That band, you got the, uh. You’ve got records of theirs, right?”

“Yeah,” Will smiles, then moves forward to sit down at the table. “Jonathan gave me some of his older ones when he left for college so I started, uh. I started collecting them.”

Okay. Okay, he can work with this.

Over Will’s shoulder, Joyce shoots him an impressed look and a thumbs up. You got this, she mouths, and then, aloud: “Hey, I just remembered, guys, I’ve got to go deal with the laundry. Just a second.”

Will frowns. “The laundry isn’t going right now.”

“Okay, then I’ve got to run a load. Be right back,” Joyce says, and then she flashes him another thumbs up and she’s gone, off down the hall.

There’s a moment of silence. Will looks around the kitchen– at the pasta boiling on the stove, the dishes in the sink, the wooden grain of the table. “Okay,” he says after a moment, “I think I should–”

“Hey,” Jim blurts out, “why don’t you, uh. Why don’t you bring one of your records out? You can have a turn.”

Will stops, halfway out of his seat. When he speaks, it’s quiet, a little pleased. “Yeah?” 

Jim nods, spreads his hands out. “Show me what you got.”

Will comes back a couple minutes later with a record in his hands. “Um,” he starts, “so this is their newest one, they released it a couple months ago.”

The red of the cover looks vaguely familiar. Jim’s sure he’s seen this one around in the record shops, something like that. “Very interesting,” he says, as Will drops the needle carefully onto it. “This is, uh–”

He knows the band, of course. He’s not that out of touch. But Will’s mouth twitches as he says, “The Cure,” and then, “um. This is one of my favorites so far.”

Jim doesn’t know what he was expecting, but it wasn’t the guitar. Drums, coming in steady and insistent. He lets out a low whistle. “Alright, wow. Didn’t take you for a rock fan, kid.”

To his surprise, Will smiles. A real smile. “Yeah,” he says, standing awkwardly by the record player. “Jonathan got me into them when I was younger. Um. I guess he liked stuff that had loud guitar and drums and stuff so, you know, I also– I like that stuff too.”

“Loud guitar,” Jim snorts. “Yeah, that sounds like your brother.”

“My dad– um,” Will says, hesitantly. “Lonnie. He hated loud music. The drums and the– I think that’s why Jonathan listened to it so much.”

Right, Jim thinks. Lonnie Byers, an infamously giant piece of work. That checks out. And then, another smaller voice pipes up with You’re the chief of police, Jim. You can get away with–

“Oh, kiss me, kiss me, kiss me,” the song croons, “your tongue’s like poison–“

Will’s eyes widen. “Um,” he says, fiddling with the player. “Um, actually, let’s– I like this other song too, so–”

Jim bites back a laugh. “I like it,” he says, which isn’t a lie. It could grow on him. “The guitar. It’s nice.”

“Really?”

“Yeah,” Jim nods, and then, as the second song starts to pick up– “Will.”

“Hm?”

“Is this a love song?” he grins. “Your second favorite is also a love song?”

“I– no,” Will splutters, immediately turning a brilliant scarlet. “‘Just Like Heaven’ is not a–”

“–I kissed her face and kissed her–”

“Lots of kissing in these songs,” he points out, and Will groans.

“Oh my God, it’s not–! The album is literally called Kiss me, Kiss me, Kiss me–”

Jim grins. Teenage boys are complicated, maybe, but you can count on them all getting flustered the same way. “I’m just teasing, kid. Could you go get your mom, please, because this sauce is about to burn and I don’t trust myself with it.”

“I wouldn’t trust her with it either,” Will mutters, even as he peers around the corner into the hall. “Mom?”

If Joyce hears him laughing, then– whatever. Jim gets a pass. It was for a good cause.

[sugarspiceandnotsonice]

I’m someone who HATES getting my hopes up and always keeps my expectations low but it’s so hard to do that when it comes to Byler. I went into season 4 as a GA member. I always knew Will was gay since season 1 and even felt like he might’ve had a crush on Mike since season 2. I was positive he had feelings for Mike since season 3. Season 4 ended up confirming everything I suspected. As for Mike, I did think he liked El in seasons 1 and 2. I even thought Mileven were cute in those seasons. Then season 3 happened and made me realize I thought Mileven was cute because I hadn’t actually witnessed them in a relationship. Their relationship just annoyed me and confused the hell out of me. It wasn’t a healthy relationship at all. Mike seemed like a completely different person, like he was pretending to be someone else. Their breakup made me so happy and then when they got back together at the end of the season I was confused and annoyed all over again. Then season 4 happened and seeing the way Mike was without El in Hawkins, seeing him go back to being the nerd I knew and loved and playing DnD again, that made me so happy. Then he went to California to visit El and Will. Once again pretending to be something that he wasn’t while around El and acting extremely weird around Will. Will clearly had feelings for Mike but acted totally fine and normal around him. The boy was beaming and so happy to see him and give him a hug. Mike was the one acting weird around Will. Why? Based on the letter El wrote to Mike you’d think Will would be the one to act weird and awkward but it was the other way around. That airport scene made me start thinking that maybe possibly Mike liked Will beyond just platonically. Will and Mike did always seem to have a deeper friendship to me. Mike always acted differently around Will compared to Lucas and Dustin. Plus when Mike was in a romantic relationship with El, he never seemed to be his authentic self to me. I then thought I was probably just reading too much into things but the more scenes I watched of Mike and El along with scenes of Mike and Will, the more I thought that there was no way that the writers of this show actually want me to want Mike and El together. If so, why are they writing them so terribly? They write Jopper, Jancy, and Lumax so well so what the hell are they doing with Mileven? Why’d they make Will have feelings for Mike and are making me want those two to be together instead? Why are the writers having Mike be his most authentic, vulnerable self with Will? What is going on here? If they want me to root for Mileven instead then they’re doing the absolute worst job in making me want them as a couple since season 3. Season 4 made me one hundred percent ship Byler and I found out that I definitely wasn’t the only one who felt that way after watching season 4. By the way, my sister can’t stand Mileven either and would much rather have Byler be a couple as well. So yeah, the writers screwed up big time if they weren’t planning on this reaction. Season 4 and Byler is what really got me into Stranger Things beyond just a casual viewer. Will is my favorite character and all I want is for that boy to finally get happiness and love. He’s just been nonstop suffering the entire time. Why make him in love with Mike if Byler isn’t going to happen? Just so he could suffer more? Wow talk about terrible writing for their only gay character.

[perexcri]

fic recs!!

i woke up to being on a couple of fic rec lists and really appreciated it, so i wanted to capitalize on the nice energy and make a list of some of my own favs that i've read recently that i didn't necessarily see on the other lists :D check these out because they have some of the best prose/plots/characterization that i've read in the fandom :] 💜

one soft infested summer (M, 18k+, 3/7 ongoing) by @wheelersboy - this one is perfect for all the highler fans out there! it's got stoner byler of course, a music festival, lots out camping, and some really amazing writing! i started it just for the fun stoner vibes because Why Not, but i'm staying for the beautiful writing and the really complex and delicate relationship mike and will have in this one

Light Sleepers (T, 15k+, 2/6 ongoing) by @helioleti - WillEl-centric fic set during the time gap between the end of s3 and the beginning of s4 that explores their dynamic and their respective problems with mike, all while trying to cope with moving across the country from everything they know. each chapter is meant to reflect a certain stage of grief, which fits so well with all the complicated emotions everyone is going through!

drank my poison all alone (T, 4k, one-shot) by silverluminoqity - mike gets vecna'd and has to face his past self who's ashamed of who he's grown up to be, and my dudes the writing goes SO HARD. by far one of the best mike gets vecna'd fics i've read with such a good take on his character

star eater (T, >1k, one-shot) by @lowlightt - another fic where the writing does not play. honestly if you have a few minutes, READ THIS FIC. it's mostly just a confrontation between will and vecna, but it's so so powerful and impactful. and again, i cannot state it enough: the writing is AMAZING

tell me again (you said yes) (M, 32k, 3/3 complete) by @willow-lark - hey remember when cleradin was like a Thing for a brief second a few months ago? well if you miss those vibes, or if you just like great writing and some of the best weaving of canon into a fantasy au i've ever read, please look no further than this fic (and it's first part, fireball him! (cast protection)). i love this one dearly and enjoyed the wonderful ways Lark wove canon (specifically s1) into such a different setting, plus it was nice to see many of the other characters play a role in the events. beautiful, astounding, heart-wrenching - and did i mention there's an elopement 👀

In Undertow (M, 17k+, 3/6 on-going) by @souverian-are-we - this and one soft infested summer have become my summer byler reads~ when i say i love this fic, i mean you will have to pry it from my cold, dead hands 🥰 we've got estranged byler, jancy engagement with some stoncy going on in the background, and most of the characters still reeling from the consequences of their final battle with the upside down. it's all set at a lake house, which provides some breathtaking/atmospheric writing that this author uses to their advantage. it has some of my favorite scenes i've ever read in fic too, ones that have literally taken my breath away

california show your teeth (T, 77k+, 10/19 on-going) by @fireflywitch - what if the Byers and Hopper families were from Lenora and moved to Hawkins? this fic takes this one simple premise and turns it into one of my favorite fics i've ever had the pleasure of following along with. it essentially functions as a retelling of s1 and s2, gives almost every main character that's been featured in the show thus far a lot of time and space for their own plots, all while culminating into one larger story underneath. i don't think i've read a fic quite like this one in terms of its scope, plotting, and characterization, because there are a lot of moving parts, but this author goes above and beyond. i cannot recommend it enough

all i know is pouring rain (and everything has changed) (T, 3k, one-shot) by @willelfanpage - i think i read this one at the beginning of my workday while i was running some report on my computer and had to go about the rest of my day as if everything was fine ahah :'D seriously though, it's 3k words that pack an emotional punch all while examining will's relationship to rain. the writing is just gorgeous, and it's a character study that i haven't really seen done before, which was quite enjoyable~

Chasing Heartlines by (T, 7k+, 1/2 on-going) @cherryisgone - if you liked Tip-Toeing on Lilypads then may i direct you to its sequel, which features so much pining mike that he might as well be a tree? again, if you like cleradin/fantasy aus, then Cherry my beloved has you covered 💜 it fits so neatly with Lilypads and provides some fun contrast between will and mike~

Touch Me Like You Know Me (M, 15k, 4/4 complete) by @starsarefire824 - this exists in the rare pantheon of fics that actually made me cry. imagine an estranged byler reunion with all the emotions turned up to an eleven, and lots of lingering on lost time and how life sometimes takes us places we never thought we'd go. it's absolutely beautiful and is a classic to me :]

come back to me and forgive everything (T, 78k, 18/18 complete) by @howtobecomeadragon - i saw a lot about this one when it was on-going but am only just now getting around to reading it, and all i can say is why did it take me so long to get to it :') this author does such a good job of writing will and mike's relationship with a lot of nuance and complexity while still managing to make them feel like the teenagers they are. basically, will has to spend every july at lonnie's house in indianapolis, and for this summer in particular, the event is a lot more emotionally impactful for both mike and will. there's lots of emotional depth, the complexities of coming out and/or realizing you're queer, and, at the heart of it, how two friends try to mend things between each other. it's so soft and sweet

that's all i've got for now!! i'm quickly running out of time on my lunch break :'D also haven't been writing as much, but it's been fun to read more and relax a bit. hope you guys enjoy these because they're genuinely some of the best stuff i've had the pleasure to read in a while 💜💜💜

[castlebyersafterdark]

would byler use condoms

Yall always have such randomly specific thoughts but I always love it! Hmmm.

Alright, I kinda love the idea of a very anxious but somewhat smug Mike going off to the store, maybe down in the little bodega near their dorm room building in the city. The one he frequents all the time. He's shifty, staring at options on the shelf. Blushing furiously as some other guys walks up and bushes forward no hesitation to grab what he needs and goes on his way. So Mike rolls his eyes and just snatches the one he wants and goes up to the register. That first time where literally NO ONE IS PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU, no one cares at all, but his mind is screaming everyone knows, everyone knows I'm going to have sex, they know I'm going to fuck someone, do they know its for a man, do they know, can they tell, do they know??? But it's the anxiety of being watched and judged and also a little heh heh I'm about to get laaaaaid pride when he puts the box on the counter and the indifferent clerk rings it up and hands it over with zero eye contact, barely looks away from his book. Mike's face is so red. Embarrassed. And excited.

I like to think they probably haven't really talked about those particulars at this point, it's not like they have a date scheduled on their calendar saying "LOSE OUR VIRGINITIES" with a big red circle on it. But they both know they're ready, probably soon. Where ever the passion leads when they're fooling around. So, Mike wants to be ready in case they decide to use them. He knows he'll be guiding them, leading them, so it's the responsible thing to buy them.

They do decide to use one that first time, not really knowing entirely what to expect. It feels like the Thing To Do. Even though they've only been with each other and have a base knowledge of what sex between men is like now, they're still hesitant and it's almost grounding to pause a moment, catch their breaths. Will's on his back, relaxed but anticipatory, and so turned on. He's so overly prepared and physically beyond ready, almost wants to tell Mike to just get on with it and fuck him, but Mike's kneeling between his legs and has got that face on that happens when he's encountered a puzzle, a challenge. Brows pinched together, teeth biting his lip as he rips at the foil. But he figures it out, and rolls the condom on with shaky, sticky hands, and finally presses inside.

It only takes a few times after that night to forgo one and try it bareback. Will really, really just wants to feel him, feel everything. Mike, too, of course. Sure, putting one on makes clean-up a lot easier, but that's not always the goal - practicality. It's so different, having your partner like that, bare inside you, coming inside you. But - it's an option. That practicality is needed sometimes. As the years go on and they get more and more adventurous, there are occasions when they need to fuck right now and it's not conducive to then go about the day walking around having to deal with the after effects 🤭 And those two are quite insatiable, after all.

[cloudycleric]

heyy dude i’m watching ur podcast video rn and i saw some of ur posts about it can you please go more into detail about ur thoughts on this charming man and byler cus i feel like i’ve been screaming into the void about the smiths LMAO. i didn’t really get it w this charming man but i wanna see what you think 🙏

okay so im guessing youre asking for an explanation on this charming man & dont worry i have also been screaming the smiths into the void lately. okay so my thing with this charming man is like, it doesnt fit entirely into the perspective of either will or mike but there are certain parts that i think are just so fucking byler. i think mainly the admiration that the speaker has for the charming man is what really sells it for me; it is very very clear in the song that the speaker has a real deep & passionate admiration for him (& maybe even a crush but i dont think morrissey is ready for that talk yet & also, as a jewish person, he can go to hell.)

we got the first verse & ough DOGGIE this one is real byler coded. "puncture bicycle on the hill side desolate" could be a lot of things but the specific bicycle imagery sticks out to me a lot for obvious reasons i'm sure, originally thinking i was going to talk about how the lyric could parallel the swing set meeting since mike too in a way was left stranded looking for help during that moment before he went up to will,

BUT, i think it fits in even better when you consider will's absence from hawkins. "punctured bicycle on the hill side desolate" could also be imagery of will's bike, because god knows where it is now, & mike is seeing it just in complete misery.

the next line "will nature make a man of me yet?" okay when i tell you i have an interpretation for this one i MEAN IT. nature, in this line pretty obviously, refers to forces beyond one's control, & i once again think this is coming from mike's perspective (thought it could be easily applied to will's). okay hold onto your horses because this one is the wildest in the west

"will nature make a man of me yet?" – mike wheeler's internalized homophobia makes him unable to view himself as a real "man." by the forces of nature taking will away from him, perhaps he views this as a way of the universe trying to make him "man up" or whatever. i know that one makes me giggle so much. it hits harder if you think about it in terms of mike's obliviousness because ough thats so good, but it also can apply to will in the same way now that he's been separated from mike. but im sorry from mikes perspective it hits so much harder

OKAY now we're moving to will's territory. the next line i want to talk about is "why pamper life's complexity when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seat?" a big theme in this charming man is how the charming man is of a very higher class than the speaker, which can definitely be said about will & mike. so, this could be explaining will talking about how mike's situation is different than his, i have a deeper better explanation,

i think this line could refer to "why think about all the fucking shitty things ever when mike is so great." it's super implied in the show that mike & will always turn to each other when theyre going through a rough period, or that mike is always protective of will/wants to make sure that he's okay, so i think this may be will talking about why he should deal with the outside world, in terms of trauma or homophobia or whatever, when he can just chill out with mike & not have to worry about all that

okay, so. i don't want to talk about the "i would go out tonight" line because i don't really think it applies here & that's okay. but what i WILL go over next is the "this man said, 'it's gruesome, that someone so handsome should care,' " line because all i can think of when i see this scene is in s4 when mike & will are burying the body in the desert & will cant help himself but stare at mike. it's probably really "gruesome" (fucking AUGHHHH terrible) that someone as handsome as mike should care about him & his problems when he thinks that the probability of them getting together really sucks. even though his personality is great too, mike is a very good looking guy i will say myself & i have also thought this since i was a youngin. so the way that he is just so beautiful to will & also to anyone with eyes makes it even worse to be pining over him because god, he's just so fucking pretty?

"jumped up pantry boy, who never knew his place" once again talking about the difference in class between the speaker & the charming man. though i wouldn't go as far to describe will as a pantry boy. but guess what? will never knew his place until after he found mike.

okay finally the last two lines of the chorus but i analyze them out of order;

the "he knows so much about these things" is like OUGH that is VAN SCENE BEHAVIOR. i could 100000% see mike going "will knows so much about these problems i have & exactly how to fix them" or whatever, & in a metaphorical way you could make the argument that will is trying to communicate something along the lines of "return the ring" but trying to get a 1:1 match for that line is a bit tricky & a lot of a stretch since will is trying to convince mike to go for it, BUT what im trying to get at is that the line could parallel how will is giving love advice to mike in the same way that the charming man does to the speaker, & the speaker is as entranced with the charming man as mike is with will

I HOPE THIS ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION! i should really organize this into a manifesto or something

[lighthouseas]

- brick fireplace // a byler ficlet

Mike thinks he might have a sixth sense, of some kind.

Having not slept very soundly these past few months, Mike has miraculously found that he's actually fallen asleep the night Will has to stay in his room due to the limited space in the Wheeler household.

And those two things are NOT related. Obviously.

It's just coincidence, then, when he jolts awake, utterly disoriented, to the sound of heavy breathing - like someone is having a panic attack. Mike turns to the side, where Will is currently stationed on the floor, sleeping in a sleeping bag that Mike had had to shake the dust out of due to it having been left at the back of a storage closet for...who knows how long.

"Will?" he whispers. He can't really see anything, since his room is pitch black - but he can hear the gasping breaths, which immediately stop once he speaks.

"Sorry," Will murmurs. "I'm sorry. I- I woke you up, didn't I?"

Mike shuffles under his bedcovers, still not really awake but immediately sensing that something is wrong regardless. "Yeah, but -" Will's breathing is still heavy. Mike wonders if he'll take oxygen donations from him. "Are you okay?"

It's a stupid question. No shit, Mike, of course Will isn't okay. He's kind of reliving all of his childhood trauma on full display for all of his family and friends. No, Will is not okay. And as Will's best friend, Mike should know this. He's a little scared, though - a bit hesitant to reach beyond the walls they've built up over the last two years. Scared that if he pokes at one brick - removes a single block, puts one stick out of place - reaches out and says, let me help calm you, holds Will in his arms like he so desperately wants to - the walls will come crashing down, all at once. And that's not what he wants. And probably not what Will wants, either, but really, what does he know?

Beside him, Will is silent for a moment. "Do you want an honest answer?" he murmurs. Mike tenses. He knows what Will is referencing, of course - lying to him about the painting, which had nearly fractured their friendship forever. He's not letting him lie again.

"Well, yeah."

"It was just-" Will sighs. He definitely thinks it isn't a big deal, even though it fucking is, and Mike is overcome with the urge to shake him violently by the shoulders. "A nightmare. They've been getting worse since-"

"...yeah." It doesn't take Mike long to realize what Will is referring to - all he has to do is look through the cracks in his blinds to see the red clouds, probably identical to the ones Will had seen in 1983, coating the Hawkins' skies above.

"Yeah," Will replies softly.

They're silent for another moment. Mike feels like - well, he feels a lot of things, most of which he has a terrible time expressing. But right now, he just feels tired, and he knows Will is, too, if the bags under his eyes Mike's been seeing as of late are anything to go by.

And so he pokes at a loose brick in the wall. It can't hurt. "Why don't you come up here?" Mike pats the empty bedspace beside him, and he swears he hears Will gasp. As if they hadn't done this countless times before as little kids.

It's different now, obviously. The connotation is different, after everything that's gone on. But Mike is delirious from lack of sleep, and the only coherent thoughts his brain is putting together are Will and scared, which he figures amounts to something, especially when his mattress dips as additional weight is added to it and he finds himself naturally giving the bigger part of the blanket to Will, who always shivered if he didn't have at least two blankets, no matter how warm it was outside.

"Mike, you don't have to do this," Will says airily as Mike gently pushes his shoulder to ease him onto the mattress. Mike's eyelids are already droopy. He doesn't fully realize the implications of what he's doing, but Will definitely feels tired, too, and doesn't either. "I'm okay."

"Mm. Then why did you come up here? Could've refused," Mike replies teasingly, but there's no bite behind it.

The brick is coming loose. Wobbling on the other side of the wall, creating a crack in the structure that one can just barely see through to the other side with.

"I-" Despite his previous opposal, Will is now actively snuggling into the blankets. He chuckles. "I dunno. You're like...a human furnace, I guess. And I was cold."

Mike's eyes are closed, now. "I do run hot," he murmurs. "You needed company, too. C'mon, admit it."

"Mike-"

"You love me."

All goes silent for a moment. Mike is beginning to fall asleep. The brick is teetering on the edge of falling out, but not quite removed from the wall yet. Maybe that can wait until tomorrow.

"I'm cold. You're hogging the blankets," Will whispers, though Mike can tell he wants to say something else.

Without opening his eyes, Mike shifts forward, hoisting himself farther up onto the pillows so his head rests atop Will's and his long arms can wrap protectively around his torso. It's nice, and ridiculously cozy. Will breathes fast against his neck, and for a moment, Mike thinks he may be having a nightmare again.

"What are you doing?"

And - okay. Mike doesn't really know what he's doing, at the moment. He's sort of already half asleep, and Will says he's cold, and Mike runs hot, so he's come to the only logical solution: be Will's human furnace (and protector against nightmares, but that's a silly title, and Mike knows Will hates talking like that. Maybe it can just be implied.)

"I'm keeping you warm," Mike answers simply.

Silence. He fidgets, though it's more like a fish flop since his muscles have turned to jelly with sleep. In doing so, he accidentally nuzzles his face into Will's hair, and catches a brief scent of vanilla shampoo.

"Is this...okay?" Mike asks, just to make sure.

Will is silent for a moment, and then Mike feels him nod against his sternum. It sends shivers up his spine, but they're the good kind - the kind that ease Mike into slumber almost immediately.

He's asleep, now, all noises from the outside muffled. Something whispers into his sternum - it feels like lips, tracing quiet words into his skin, begging him to understand. Begging him to just feel.

"I love you."

The brick falls out of the wall, and Mike pulls Will just a little bit closer.

[kiirotoao]

Re: Byler and being best friends

Alright, look, I understand that in real life, best friends can appreciate each other’s art. Best friends look for each other when they’re lost. Best friends stick together in rough patches. Best friends fight and disagree. Best friends apologize when they’ve messed up. Best friends give each other gifts. Best friends confide in each other with almost everything. Best friends can do romantic things and be completely and utterly platonic in real life.

But guess what Stranger Things is not? Real life!!

If any story in media is well-captured and well-written, if the camera sees it, if we see it, then it’s supposed to be important. While friends in real life can do the most questionably romantic things and still claim to be just friends or even just best friends, there’s far more nuance to real people to explore if it’s truly romantic or not, and that’s not for others to openly discern. But we who analyze Byler are not doing this because Mike and Will are real people. They’re characters, crafted into this audio-visual story with pre-written and exclusive history and dreams.

While I know that they say they’re just best friends, I speculate on them potentially being more. Why? Because their stories are interwoven and I see chemistry within the threads. It’s as simple as that.

I preach at the end of almost every video I make, “Byler’s endgame,” and really, that’s a sendoff of encouragement more than anything else. Because I hope and believe that Byler can happen at the end of this season and this overarching story. I’m not pushing two people together. I’m hopeful to see two characters come together and realize that their relationship and feelings can blend into a wonderfully written romance amidst this dangerous and unpredictable world that they’ve been put in.

So please stop comparing Mike and Will to real relationships and saying, can’t best friends just be best friends? Look, yes! You’re right! In real life, best friends can be nothing more and choose to stay that way. But on the other hand, hey, best friends in real life can also become more! No one can deny that! But whatever the weather, whatever can be real isn’t relevant. Real lives are not a TV show. Real lives are not being created and publicized (besides some people in reality TV, which is another unrelated issue). By contrast, as characters, Mike and Will’s lives are. And I love the thought of them finding love in each other at the end of the pages. It gets no finer than that.

And so when I look back at their narratives and see the way they treat each other, interact on screen and see how they think, tell me, am I wrong for shipping them? I’m taking the details and looking beyond explicit labels. And I don’t just go around doing this to all people I see in my life who have chemistry. This is specific, this is the love I witness in this thriller-drama-romance. I’m sorry if I end up fighting against you, but I’m not here to crowd you out. Ship what you want. If you love certain characters together, talk about them! There’s a plethora to talk about for Byler! So honestly, I’m curious, why are you compelled to come to me and try to convert me away from what I love when I often don’t even mention your name? Is there not enough for you to obsess over and love? Is there perhaps not enough textual evidence or good moments to enjoy for your ship? I’m just saying.

At the end of the day, real life experiences and examples are practically void when we’re talking about art, and please, please let me have fun with my ships. This is the internet. If you don’t like it, use your capabilities and settings and scroll or block what you don’t like, and pursue what you do. Unless you want to join a forum to discuss the arguments, I think that it’s unfair to think that those who don’t ship your ship are going to talk about your ship. I’m not responsible for what you consume and see. Really, no one is but yourself.

I like to think that I’m rather patient, but I don’t know, I think I’m tearing at the seams a little after a few years in this fandom. This is directed to no one in particular, though, so please don’t take this as a direct callout. I just wanted to get this off my chest. Sorry if I got a little harsh in the end, there, too.

Thank you to those who’ve engaged very respectfully with me even if you disagree with my opinions. I hope that I’m respectful, in turn. I love lighthearted debates, but I don’t love repeating myself to some who don’t want to listen. And of course, thank you Bylers. I’ve met so many wonderful people through our silly journeys going crazy together. That’s all. 💙💛

[spicybylerpolls]

It's interesting how many people are bothered by the banner on this blog. It's pretty tame. This idea that Mike and Will aren't even allowed to kiss when they were younger because it's inappropriate is crazy to me when we saw Mike and El making out at that same age and people weren't scandalized by watching that. So clearly their issue is that it's 2 boys and they are uncomfortable with adults knowing they want to kiss. I saw someone claim that it wasn't homophobia but they were bothered by the fact that the disclaimer says they will be aged up in polls but then used something from S3 in the banner. But that's because on the show they have mostly been young kids so if you're making a banner there aren't pictures of them randomly as adults lol. It's not a big deal at all. People don't even think through why they are mad. They just have a trigger response to things they don't like and go off about it. It's like they are throwing darts and hoping one of the reasons they've come up with will stick and actually be a legit issue. But I have yet to see an actually criticism of this blog that was fair. All of it is coming from young people scandalized by sex and freaking out over the details and kinks people came up with. They equate "kink" with something sinister and predatory. I sincerely hope that they get educated better at some point because their attitude is a big problem. When the fandom is more active there is going to be a lot more people talking like this. And if there is a sex scene that is all anyone is going to be discussing. If it's bothering them now, they won't be able to deal with it later.

Yeah I was genuinely surprised people were/are upset about that too! I understand not liking the blog as a whole, but to single out the banner as some kind of gotcha is def strange to me. Even some people who like this blog are bothered by it. But it didn't even cross my mind once that the banner would potentially be something folks would have any opinions about at all, negative or positive lol.

Having a S3 banner isn't saying, "Go think of them as their S3 selves!" (And it isn't saying the opposite either- no one can control what others think about). The banner isn't saying anything at all. It's just a banner. Like, there's no sinister or ulterior motive behind it. It was just chosen because it looks cool and because, like you said, we don't have any pictures of them randomly as adults. It's strange to me that people think the banner is "attaching a specific image" to Byler.

But they don't think that about anyone else's profiles. Are people with S1 Byler profile pictures only talking about S1 Byler on their accounts, even when they analyze darker themes? Of course not. So I do think people are grasping at straws and partially motivated by purity culture and homophobia, even if it's internalized homophobia.

And the disclaimer says Byler is aged-up in all the sex-related polls not just to clarify the purpose of the blog as a whole and so people don't have to keep adding "for aged-up Byler" to their submissions, but also for literal reasons. Unless you believe Byler secretly boned off screen already or something, when Byler has sex, whether in the show or post-canon, they will be aged up to at least Stancy's age.

(Some of the anons haven't been specifically related to having sex but to sexuality in general, and people are usually discussing things like hosegate where obviously they aren't aged up. But the actual sex specific questions are clearly talking about Byler in S5 and beyond).

Since the show is going in a more mature direction, it makes sense to talk about sex and sexuality as it relates to Byler. As you put it, "I sincerely hope that they get educated better at some point because their attitude is a big problem. When the fandom is more active there is going to be a lot more people talking like this. And if there is a sex scene that is all anyone is going to be discussing. If it's bothering them now, they won't be able to deal with it later." Very true.