#but sometimes your boundary can trigger someone else's boundary. when that happens have the humility to talk further about it

[primordialruin]

Big misconception about boundaries: they are for yourself, not other people. You can tell someone that something makes you uncomfortable and hopefully they'll care enough not to do it, but you should never rely on that hope. You set a boundary for yourself. If they do something after you have stated your feelings, then respect your own boundary and disengage.

[hatari-translations]

Matthías on ‘Men and Responsibility in the Time of #MeToo’

This is a podcast episdode featuring a panel discussion with Matthías in it, titled "Men and Responsibility in the Time of #MeToo". It's quite long, so I'm just going to translate Matthías's comments and what they're in response to.

It's prompted by the 'second wave of #MeToo' going on in Iceland right now, thanks to an unpleasant chain of events involving a prominent podcast host getting a lot of sympathy for supposedly false accusations of sexual violence against him only for two women to then step forward to press charges against him. There's been a lot of emerging discussion in the wake of it, especially about people sympathizing with and believing perpetrators over survivors. Obvious content warning for discussion of sexual assault below.

First, the host asks about men looking inward to reflect on their own past behaviour during this time, and whether they and their friends have been doing so, directing the question first toward Matthías. He responds:

MATTHÍAS: I think so, yeah. I think it's natural and good in this moment to reflect on the past a bit, and perhaps redefine or rediscover, or even - I'm having a hard time even getting words around this. I haven't really expressed myself in this discussion, but yeah, I think I did look back and try to think about boundaries, and I think many people around me are doing that, who have a conscience and want to do right. We're experiencing a kind of - my generation is sometimes called the porn generation - maybe we're kind of discovering a skewed way of thinking that we've grown up with regarding boundaries. So perhaps it's healthy to look back and try to figure out whether you've ever violated a boundary with your ex, or whatever.

And then there's a different matter, discussed in Kastljós yesterday, how if you conclude that you have done so, or your friend has done so, how you go about taking responsibility for that, and I thought that [the Kastljós discussion] was good. I'd really like some kind of education in how to discuss that with friends, what that conversation should look like. If your friend is either accused of something, or determines for himself that he didn't respect his girlfriend's boundaries, or something, in the past - how do you talk to him? I liked hearing yesterday, how did they phrase it, that you should ask permission before apologizing. Not just show up expecting them to sign something absolving you of sin - the conversation should be on the survivor's terms. I don't know. As you said, it's first steps - this is the first time I, at least, express something of worth publicly, or at least I hope it's of worth, I don't know. But it's a really new discussion, and I feel very immature in it, like I don't really have the tools to talk about it. I've just been listening and trying to learn and realize what so incredibly many women around us have been going through, and I feel a certain sense of powerlessness to even talk about it. So thanks for pushing us to get into it.

After a while, Árni Matthíasson mentions the first step is to realize that men grow up learning a lot of toxicity and you have to realize that you're in that position; Matthías adds, "And that you're immensely privileged."

Later, they're talking about how men often don't have the courage to speak up against sexism and toxicity in other men, and how there's a kind of codependency in letting it slide. Matthías adds, "I think all guys can relate to that, from elementary school onwards." They talk about "perpetrator codependency" (gerandameðvirkni), the phenomenon of sympathizing with and failing to object to the perpetrators. Matthías suggests that could be applied to locker room talk too (something that'd come up earlier), "sexist codependency": you don't think of yourself as a sexist but you still go along with these situations.

MATTHÍAS: And speaking of having the tools to talk about it [the others had agreed with his mention of this], I would really like to be better at just being able to nicely and naturally in the situation, but still firmly, explain that I don't think disrespect towards women is okay, whether it's joking or not, without just getting the perpetrator, the sexist, to go on the defensive. To learn to just draw that line in the sand of Hey, you're not funny. It's something we need to practice, I think, as men.

In response to Árni talking about believing survivors on principle and refusing to be neutral, Matthías responds:

MATTHÍAS: You talked about the neutral way, and you were asking if it's hard for men to step up. Up until now, I've had the privilege of not technically needing to take a stance. That's a privilege that men have. I had no idea who Sölvi Tryggva [the podcast host whose case started all this] was before this, I don't watch podcasts, and kind of had the benefit of none of it having to affect me. It wasn't until I started talking to female friends, and women around me, that I realized how much it provokes, and this thing of being triggered. I think guys maybe don't properly know what it means. It has a huge amount of impact on survivors to see that perpetrator codependency, and so much else these days.

GARÐAR GUNNLAUGSSON: If guys look inward a bit, they can see there are women in their lives, everywhere, who've been through something, and often something really awful.

ÁRNI MATTHÍASSON: As they say, it's not all men, but it's nearly all women.

GARÐAR: Yeah.

MATTHÍAS: Exactly.

The host plays a clip of a researcher studying intimate partner violence, talking about 'monsterization', how people imagine perpetrators are these scary inhuman monsters determined to do evil, and this makes it harder for perpetrators to face and own up to what they've done, which is exactly what survivors often most wish for - for the perpetrator to take responsibility for their actions. The host talks about how this also makes it harder for people to believe that their friends have done something unsavoury - you know your friend's not a monster so they can't have done this. Árni talks a bit about how most sexual violence is perpetrated by intimate partners, not some masked stranger.

MATTHÍAS: I remember when I first heard that. I don't think I properly understood it. If it's not some criminal in an alley, then who? I was probably just a teenager when I heard it, that no, it's usually someone close to you that rapes you. I couldn't quite even think that thought through.

GARÐAR: That it could be someone in your intimate circle.

MATTHÍAS: Yeah. Just, anyone you meet.

There's talk about the notion of ruining people's reputations.

MATTHÍAS: Yeah, that thing of valuing reputation so incredibly highly. We could value the experiences of survivors more highly, compared to that. I think it's a really good question - we're taking baby steps with this, but perhaps one thing that's easy to make judgements about is, say some acquaintance is accused of violence, and you don't have the context to judge it, but you still want to stand with survivors, but your friend's also not a monster - whether he's guilty or innocent, he can always show humility and willingness to listen and look inward. That's something I think both the monsters and the good kids should consider. I don't know, when you see someone accused of something and there's no humility towards the accusers' experiences, just defensiveness, or no looking inward to say, 'I think I'm innocent but what about my behaviour has made this person feel differently' - that's a reason to ask yourself big questions. Humility, listening, looking inward, for ourselves and our friends. I think that's one of the keys.

Garðar points out that if you just cut off a friend who's perpetrated violence, he's still there - the violence is still happening until it's actually addressed. You have to have the courage to intervene and try to get him to change, to show that you won't tolerate it, and Matthías agrees with that and says it's something he wishes he were better at, and that all men were.

The host muses on why sex in particular is such a quagmire for violation of boundaries. Árni emphasizes that rape and sexual assault are not sex but violence, and Matthías says "Yes, very good point." The host elaborates, talking about how a lot of the dating culture involves intoxication and so on, and sometimes people just don't get what their partner wants or doesn't want in that situation.

MATTHÍAS: Maybe guys are just very bad at putting themselves in women's shoes, or listening to them. I think if you thought of something that happened at the club yesterday and properly try to put yourself in the girl's shoes, it's simpler than you'd think to work out in your head whether she liked it, whether she thought it was funny or enjoyable when I said this or touched her there. At least part of the problem might be that guys just keep going, trusting that they'll be celebrated whatever they - it's just privilege. And the disconnect happens there. And it's just an exercise in, what I was saying earlier, humility and listening and looking inward.

ÁRNI: Like we're always Mr. Wonderful.

MATTHÍAS: Yeah. Like we're always Mr. Wonderful, and then when Mr. Wonderful hears somebody didn't enjoy what he was doing yesterday, or that he violated a boundary, or even committed violence, that really knocks down some of Mr. Wonderful's worldview. I don't know, that might be part of it. Maybe it's not that complicated, we're just bad at putting ourselves in others' shoes.

GARÐAR: Or we're just idiots.

MATTHÍAS: Yeah, maybe that's what it is. Well, I mean, often when you hear stuff like 'Oh, nothing's allowed anymore', that classic sentence, it's this sort of cognitive distortion from a guy who thinks he's wonderful and everything he says is smart or funny. And if that guy really tries to think, 'Hmm, does this girl think what I'm saying is cool or fun? Is this fun flirting or is this girl just waiting for the conversation to be over so she can leave, because she feels uncomfortable?' I don't think it's that hard, if you sincerely try to understand how the other person feels. Then, of course, there are probably other variables to it.