#but its not one that is necessarily lethal- like fleeing from predators or stalking prey

[ruthlesslistener]

All this talk of breeding kink has resolved not one but TWO things in my brain.

First was cementing why it's kink. As far as I can tell there's not an easy line between kink and non-kink and it seems more related to what society counts as "normal" or not. Which in that view I kept thinking, well wouldn't reproduction be the most "normal" as it's the "point" (evolutionarily) of sex, and humans do in fact keep reproducing? Which just led to my brain spinning in circles on how arbitrary such definitions are.

And well. Okay I actually didn't resolve the arbitrary aspect, but it does make more sense how it would play out ask kink if the sorta fantasy aspect of breeding is disconnected to actual want for that.

Which led me to my second revelation of why I often (not always) find breeding kink stuff so disappointing. As someone who wants kids/pregnancy XDDDD And all I could think was "why don't you want to follow through" in such works. The worst offenders being tagged breeding and then not even....mentioning such a thing at all...(okay maybe that's just a tagging/bad writing problem).

Anyway I just enjoyed reading your thoughts. Made me think.

Yeah this sort of discussion really is deeply fascinating- its part of the reason why I'm so interested in sex from a scientific perspective, but it makes talking about it hard because of societal limitations (ie, rn I'm worried I'll be called a pedophile for exposing minors to discussions about sex, but since I'm just discussing it in a non-arousing context + clearly don't want to fuck kids I'mma file that away as my OCD being cruel to me). Thing is, it really is fascinating how it makes our brains tick! There's all sorts of papers by sexologists out there that talk about how its like a completely separate part of your brain from your logic center or something similar (been a while since I read any of those papers, so don't take this at face value), which is why you can have people like me who are repulsed by the idea of getting pregnant for various reasons but have a breeding kink. You're very literally not you when you're horny! The reason why I was musing about breeding kinks potentially being an evolutionary 'trick' to get people to have more kids is because it's one of the most common ones out there, despite lots of people not wanting to get pregnant- because its disconnected from the logic system and is way closer to 'instinct' than most other of our desires

The way I define 'kink' myself is some aspect integrated into sex that makes it a whole lot more arousing to an individual, but is not necessarily a commonality across individuals (and is separate from a fetish because its typically sexual in nature, whereas fetishes oftentimes don't seem to be tied to sex at all). Like, for example, people who are attracted to penises are, across the board, probably going to become aroused by seeing an erect dick, and watching people having sex is arousing even if you yourself are not attracted to either person in the picture. That's not a kink. But stuff like breeding, cuckholding, etc are, because while they're common as a source of arousal, they're not shared by everyone in the population. Though I do think that what you mentioned about there being a blurry line defined by societal rules def. does play a factor into it, because a lot of the super popular/common kinks are directly linked to what is seen as 'taboo', like nonmonogamy or public sex (I believe there's been extensive research on why rape kinks among afab people are so common, for example, and it's because society looks down on female sexuality so much that it's a way of uncoupling the person's shame at being horny from the actual scenario that arouses them- they cannot be 'impure' if they had no agency in what happened to them. Which is probably why someone like me, who thinks arousal is the stupidest thing to shame someone for, doesn't see the appeal at all. But that's a direct tie between social expectations and kink). Idk, the psychology of it is really fucking cool and I highly recommend checking out papers written on it sometime!!

As for why some fics get tagged as breeding kink without any mention of breeding itself- my guess is that because its so widespread of a kink that people's opinions on what constitutes it ranges anywhere from 'not stopping until the person is confirmed pregnant and then some' to 'unprotected PIV sex'. The former of which is what the definition should be imo, the latter which is the way more boring and vanilla option that you probably ran into

[eighthdoctor]

back on my bullshit again in a new fandom: logical consequences of grimm responding to animal fears

(do they? don’t they? whatever, i don’t think the show has given us a good answer yet)

anyway so the thing: non-human animals feel...a lot of emotions. fear is one of the most fundamental, but anger is also in there. i’d expect to see grimm turn up for two main types of interactions: predation and intra-group conflict.

predation is what it sounds like: predators attacking (and kiling and eating) prey. intra-group conflict is when two or more members of the same social group get into a fight.

one at a time:

predation: the predator’s feelings can be pretty easily dispensed with, because they feel excited and focused and happy. not very grimm feelings at all. prey are much more likely to become a grimm target, as they feel afraid and sometimes angry.

a quick evolution recap for y’all: more animals are born than live to reproduce, but this isn’t random. which animals die young is, over large scales, determined by how well adapted they are to their environment--that is, how good they are at both getting food and not getting turned into food. animals which are better at eating and not getting eaten are more likely to have offspring in the future.

or, as the old joke goes: you don’t need to be faster than the bear. you need to be faster than your friend.

so in real life, a cheetah takes off after an antelope, and the following selection pressures are in play:

1. speed. being physically faster will be beneficial to both animals, so we have an arms race where cheetahs are getting faster and faster, and antelope are getting faster and faster, and some day we may hit a land speed record.

2. reaction time. the cheetah initiates this chase, but the antelope will zigzag, and so the closer the cheetah can stick to the antelope’s path--the faster it can respond to its moves--the more likely it will win. meanwhile, the sooner the antelope can react to the cheetah’s initial lunge, the more likely it will get away entirely.

3. stealth. this one goes entirely to the cheetah, and it’s not well suited for it. other cats get closer to their prey before lunging. cheetahs do get close, but they’re simply not built for the stalk (or temperamentally equipped for it either). but for a cheetah who can get that close, their odds of a kill go up.

4. observation. and this is the antelope’s equivalent. if it can spot the cheetah before the lunge, it’s actually very unlikely the cheetah will make a go for it at all.

for the most part, antelope are already at their observation maximum, and cheetah sacrifice stealth for a better reaction time (it has to do with twitchiness: if you’re very very twitchy, you’ll be fabulous at tag but horrible at hide and seek). mostly they’re being pitted in terms of speed and reaction time.

now add grimm.

i’m making the assumption that about half the time, the grimm will attack the predator, and half the time, they’ll attack the prey. (probably more like 1:1:1:1 where the last two options are “both” and “neither” but let’s not complicate this).

for the antelope, well. the antelope never cared very much about what the cheetah was there for. 

to zoom out from this particular example, prey animals have two major responses to predators: get away (run faster, hide better) or make the predator go away (horns, size, tough skin, poison, spikes...poison spikes...). some of these strategies will be more useful on grimm than others. grimm aren’t going to be intimidated unless the animal genuinely isn’t angry; grimm won’t necessarily be deterred by going down a burrow or changing skin color.

once a predator-prey duo has attracted grimm, the prey animal has two choices (they always do): fight or flight. they can either outrun the grimm (arguably only because the grimm will focus on the slower predator instead) or kill it.

in the case of the cheetah-antelope example, antelope are most likely to just get faster. grimm are just bigger, scarier cheetahs with better endurance to an antelope, so the antelope population will undergo selection for faster, stronger antelope.

cheetah are similar, actually: when it comes to conflicts with other large predators, cheetah rarely take it to a fight. they’ll walk away from their own kills if another predator turns up because they’re not at all built for physical contact. so in remnant, we’re looking at super fast cheetah and antelope.

however, there are other outcomes.

first, predators are much less likely to develop for pursuit over ambush in the first place. an ambush will very quickly resolve into a kill or the predator walking away to try again later. there will be fear, but it’ll be intense and quickly gone. pursuit predators take minutes to hours (to days) to wear down their prey and catch them, which is much more time for grimm to turn up. so wolves, who are quite happy to chase large prey for miles on end, are going to need to adapt to smaller prey who can be caught faster.

second, prey which have always been more inclined to fight than flee are going to face more intense pressure to be lethal. you don’t need to kill the tiger to get it to give up, but you do need to kill the grimm. so animals like elephants can’t just be big. once a mamma elephant gets scared for her calf, she has to be willing and able to kill about it. (in real life they start and often end with display charges. around grimm? probably not so much)

in comparison to real life, where we do have some generalist prey animals, remnant equivalents are going to be much more extreme. bison often run from wolves as a first response but stand their ground once chosen as the victim; in remnant this sort of mass herd panic would attract grimm pretty quickly. it’d be a much better strategy for bison to stand their ground from the get-go and consistently attack back.

as @mylordshesacactus just argued to me, there also won’t be any large herds. it’s very, very easy to start a panic in massed groups. much harder when there’s only 4 or 5 of you. so that’s interspecific conflict. what about conspecific conflict?

well, unlike with predation, you don’t need to fight members of your same species to survive. [citation needed] most fights between animals of the same species are over a resource, such as food, sleeping spaces--or sex.

i’m going to set aside squabbling over food. nobody wants to get killed for a haunch of meat, so predators have worked out ways to share a kill or scare off others without major conflict (or fear).

instead let’s talk sex.

in species where sex leads to conflicts (some species are monogamous, and others do flybys where no one gets too worked up), you’ve got two major strategies: male competition and female choice.

female choice is where males compete for the attention & sexual availability of a female. males don’t directly interact, and may have things arranged so they’re spread out over a small (or large) area. instead females move around until they find the male who suits their interests. this is particularly common in birds, where males compete to grow the flashiest tail or sing the prettiest song. then they pair off, boink, and incubate eggs.

this isn’t particularly full of negative emotions (it’s...hard to figure out what jealousy looks like in order to study it, so mostly what you’ll see is some amount of frustration) so not terribly interesting to grimm.

male competition is full of anger though.

in ungulates (hoofed animals), males butt heads, kick, bite, bang necks together, and otherwise have a huge fuss over who can assemble the largest harem. these conflicts are painful and violent. watch any david attenborough documentary for examples. while long term, these behaviors are motivated by the eventual access to sex, in the short term, they are driven entirely by emotions.

so we’ve got a herd of horses. (say a small herd, accounting for the first half of this.) there’s one dominant stallion, and a handful of satellite bachelors (zero to four depending on number of mature mares). when the mares come into heat, the dominant stallion is going to spend a lot of time a) stressing about the bachelors or b) running them off. meanwhile the bachelors are going to spend a lot of time a) stressing about the stallion and b) trying to fight him off.

(the mares won’t be too fussed by any of this.)

the longer this goes on, the more likely grimm are to show up.

here’s the problem for the males: it’s to everyone’s advantage for male-male competition to not be deadly. even the top male isn’t going to be top forever, and he’d rather not get killed off on his way out, because if he gets killed off, there goes any chance of sneakily reproducing later. so fights are DRAMATIC, they are HIGH OCTANE, and they very rarely escalate to physical contact. when they do, they even more rarely lead to death.

so while at the same time males need to remain non-lethal against other males, they need to escalate to lethal behavior very quickly when grimm show up. this is a tricky balance to hold when you’re worked up.

now, i admit that grimm are less interested in non-human animal emotions than they are in human/faunus emotions, and that some of these encounters are so brief that the grimm won’t arrive before they’re over. but evolution is a gambling game. it’s about many, many small transactions over years, and so it matters greatly whenever anything slightly increases the risk of a certain behavior.

if male-male competition is slightly more risky, then either a) males need to be better at killing grimm, but not to the point where they’re killing other males or b) there needs to be less anger involved.

it’s very very tricky, speaking as an animal trainer, to retain a behavior while neutralizing the emotion behind it. possible! but tricky. even trickier when there’s no trainer involved. it’s not enough for the fights to become less dangerous, because the grimm care about emotions. the conflicts need to be less intense, and that’s hard.

so instead of less intense conflicts, pivot to more readily lethal horses. (ouch) (sidenote: increasing traits in one sex will often lead to similar changes in the other, especially in species where males and females are largely the same. and it’s not like mares aren’t already interested in kicking the living daylights out of anything that displeases them...)

remnant horses, and many other ungulates, would be more prone to fighting over flight, because that’s a necessary trait during mate competition. since it’s very hard to shift strategies mid-go, males who are already fighting (non-lethally) can more easily turn to killing grimm than running away from them.

so what we’re looking at here is a world where social species live in smaller groups, where fights are more readily lethal but also easier to diffuse, and where predators trend towards patient stalks and short, fast kills.

and that’s without getting into the implications for farming and domesticated animals...