#but also maybe someone genuinely doesn't agree that X or Y is a flaw - and that's ok

[sage-nebula]

I see what you’re saying, but counterpoint: Why? Why do folks need to admit that things they like are badly made?

Setting aside, for a moment, that “badly made” is subjective and that some people might genuinely disagree on what is or isn’t badly made — who are these people hurting, when they make posts expressing their love for how this series was written or that scene was filmed? Who are they hurting when they gush over this character’s development or this ship’s writing? Are they hurting those who disagree? Because if so, those people can easily use the block or blacklist options. Are they hurting themselves? They seem happy enough, and I haven’t heard of Bad Fandom Opinions putting anyone in the hospital, so I don’t think that’s the case, either. If someone makes posts on their own blog about This Thing They Like, talking about why they like it and how awesome they think it is . . . they’re not hurting anyone. And if they’re not hurting anyone, then I see no reason why they need change their behavior.

There is this attitude that has, I believe, sprung up in recent years where you’re expected to list out all the flaws of everything you like. To call something you love, whether it’s a series or a ship or a character, “garbage” is seen as cool or enlightened. If you’re not constantly talking about this bit of bad writing in a show you like, or this bit of bad gameplay in a game you enjoy, or how X developer is trash because Y reasons, then you’re a stan or a shill and you clearly don’t have critical thinking skills. But I don’t think that’s true. I think it’s exhausting to have to list out all the flaws in something you love before you’re allowed to talk about liking it. It makes me sad to look at something I love and degrade it with insults. It makes me feel like I’m joining the bullies who would mock me for something I enjoyed, which was admittedly a form of defense I used in middle school to keep my peers from knowing that I (gasp) still liked Pokémon and YGO. If I mock these things, then I’m one of them, they’ll think I’m not a loser and I’ll be safe. But bullies will be bullies regardless and we shouldn’t be afraid to show unabashed love for something, without needing to simultaneously tear it down. Yes, you can point out the flaws in something and still love it wholeheartedly — but you shouldn’t need to tear it apart every time you make a post about how much you love it. You should be able to say, “This thing rocks!” and have that be the end of it. Not every place is a place for critical discourse, and just because someone doesn’t make a long list detailing all the flaws in their favorite thing whenever they talk about it doesn’t mean they aren’t aware those flaws exist.

And on that note, as I said above, “Thing Is Badly Made” is subjective. Even if a large group of people agrees that Thing Is Bad, that’s still a subjective opinion. It’s just a popular subjective opinion. For instance, you and I have very different opinions on your favorite video game. You think it’s wonderful, and I think it's the opposite of wonderful. But my opinion is NOT any more correct or valid than yours is. I may think that all of the choices that went into the development of that game were poor ones, but you might conversely think they were wonderful ones, and that opinion is just as correct as mine . . . because it’s an opinion, and a video game is a piece of art, and different people are going to view art differently. And heck, over time, our opinions can change as well. When I was nineteen I thought Supernatural was well-written in the first five seasons at least, but now at thirty-one I look back at even season one’s writing and cringe. But does that mean that Supernatural is, objectively, poorly written garbage? No, because it’s art. And art is subjective. And people who think that the early seasons of Supernatural are still good aren’t wrong, nor do they need to qualify their gushy love posts with “I know it’s garbage” first before getting into the praise.

So, ultimately, I do understand what you’re saying. And I agree with the point of “it’s okay to love something you consider to be garbage,” because it is. But unless someone who Likes A Thing picks a fight with someone who Doesn’t Like A Thing and screams at them about why they should actually Like This Thing, I don’t think they need to qualify their posts with, “I know this Thing Is Bad,” even if Thing Is Bad is the popular subjective opinion. Maybe they genuinely, wholeheartedly believe Thing Is Good. Maybe their opinion of what good camerawork, or writing, or game design is genuinely differs from popular opinion. And maybe they already privately struggle enough with everyone saying Thing They Like is garbage, but they’re pretending they don’t by making positive posts instead, and being told, “your thing is garbage but you can still love it” doesn’t actually make them feel any better, because they don’t want to call this thing they love, that they don’t think is garbage, garbage.

Bottom line, if someone is attacking others for having a differing opinion on A Thing, then they need to stop and check their behavior. But if they’re just making gushy posts about how they think A Thing is amazing, then they should be allowed to do so without qualifiers. They’re not hurting anyone, and it’s easy enough to block them and move on if their opinions are bothersome.

There's some folks who really need to just admit The Thing They Like Is Badly Made.

Like. Some posts read like a fucking hostage being forced to try and convince people The Thing Is Well Made lmao

It's okay, you can stop trying to deny raging flaws in a thing and pretend they're masterfully crafted. Really.

You can love a thing with all your heart AND it can be badly made. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I have deeply enjoyed things that I would not recommend to anybody, things that are just undeniably bad. But I found them fun anyway, because something doesn't need to be super well made to be enjoyable.

It's okay to admit the thing you like sucks in terms of how its crafted, and you like it anyway because there's nothing wrong with that nor is it something to be ashamed of.

I know a lot of stuff says otherwise but that's BS. You can just embrace loving something that's just. Not Good

It's okay. Embrace it.

It's honestly a lot less stressful than trying to pretend away glaring flaws.

[bigskydreaming]

How do you counter a Bruce hater? Not the 'never read comics so Bruce Wayne is a useless rich guy who should redistribute his wealth' hater, an actual hater who'd root for some villains like Ivy or Harley, want him gone so the Robins & Selina don't have to listen to him or care about him, thinks he should be obsolete because he's Idk.. old and has too many comics maybe? Genuine hater who somehow really loves his kids but not him. Doesn't hate the older version tho, acknowledges some parts..

I think it just comes down to why you want to counter them, tbh? Don’t get me wrong, I TOTALLY get being defensive of a fave, and respect how these fictional characters still nevertheless mean a great deal to us for various reasons.....but we hate various characters for a ton of different reasons as well. Bruce is....an especially complicated subject, because he’s such a CHARGED subject. He’s one of the oldest comic book characters out there, and he’s EXTREMELY polarizing....because people see radically different things when they look at him. Both canon writers and the fans. 

And thus we so often get these different takes on him that are literally AT ODDS with each other....the loving, caring father who is ideal for his kids because he wants to be for them what he never really had for himself vs the absent, neglectful father due to being a brooding, emotionally stunted lone wolf who believes he’s no good for anyone else and is best on his own.

And so the thing is, as much as it sucks, Bruce is one of those figures in comics where because BOTH takes (and everything else in between them) are real, just at different times, and are at such extreme opposite ends of the spectrum......there are reasons for loving his character that are absolutely valid....but there are reasons for hating his character that are absolutely valid as well. It kinda just depends on where your point of entry into the characters and their narratives are, and what your area of focus is.

For instance, its not really that weird that there are people who genuinely hate his character but somehow really love his kids....because I mean, using myself as an example....Dick has always been my character of focus, the one I personally relate to the most and invest in the most, and well, there have been a lot of times when Bruce has been written being extremely shitty to him. And that’s specifically WHAT I hold against Bruce’s character a lot of the time, and its not a contradiction to like Bruce’s kids and not like him.....the way DC has so massively fucked him up in regards to his kids a lot of the times IS the reason people who like his kids don’t like him. And even though its totally the writing that’s to blame, there sometimes comes a point when the problems are so everpresent in the writing of a character that its just too hard for a fan to separate the writing from the character, and it gets all tangled up together and thus you end up with someone hating Bruce, even though its really only certain ways he’s written that originated that.

So I mean, for myself, I don’t hate Bruce, but I DEFINITELY hate the way he’s written a lot of the time....I’m just very much used to centering my writer brain even when I’m reading, and thus its...easier? For me to keep an awareness of when I have a problem with a character inherently vs when I just have a problem with a certain take on a character? So I don’t hate Bruce because I recognize the times he is written well in regards to his kids and I see the potential for that always being there, but that doesn’t stop me from hating on the times he ISN’T written well in regards to them and is basically outright abusive because I mean....that’s part of why I invest in Dick’s narratives so much....I come from an abusive household and as much as I WANT Bruce to be good for Dick, I recognize and see myself and my own story in a lot of Dick’s narratives with Bruce.....which is why I dislike Bruce on a lot of occasions....BUT I also recognize and see in the OVERALL CHARACTERS the potential for Bruce to do what DIDN’T happen in my own life and like....get his act together. Be better. FIX himself and his relationships with his kids so that he can give them the family they deserve.

And so that’s why and where its ideal for me to keep the fact that the flaws are in the writing, not the characters, front and center.

But that’s not necessarily ideal for everyone, is the thing you gotta remember to respect. And other people who might be drawn to Dick and Jason and the other kids’ narratives BECAUSE they relate specifically to them as characters who have dysfunctional or even unhealthy relationships with an abusive or neglectful parent.....they might be less inclined to not hate Bruce because a family resolution isn’t ultimately what they’re looking for when relating to these characters....maybe what’s best for them at this point in their life is to see or imagine stories where these characters break away from a family member who only seems to hurt them lately, to not wait and hope for things to get better or him to improve but to just...move on on their own. *Shrugs* I don’t know, I can’t speak for everyone but none of us can is the thing.

And so its messy as hell, and its not a lot of fun sometimes, but the fact is, we just all gotta try and remember that what we look for in these characters and what we see in them is not the only thing that’s there. There are SO many facets to these characters and their stories and SO many reasons people are drawn to them and SO many things that fans are looking for and hoping for from them.

So my only advice is don’t worry about countering so much as just....holding front and center your own motivations for loving Bruce’s character and the WHYS of it. And its not....it doesn’t have to be one or the other, you know? Its not a zero sum game. As much as it makes it complicated to navigate fandom a lot of times, there’s room for multiple interpretations to exist, and the reasons you love Bruce’s character don’t HAVE to counter or negate the reasons other people hate his character, and vice versa. The reasons other people hate and criticize Bruce don’t HAVE to impact or harm the things you love about him......just focus on speaking to and putting out there your own view of things, and by all means, be as forceful and passionate about that as you want or need to be! 

But just....know the reality is that even if you’re trying to persuade someone else to see Bruce the way you do, that doesn’t guarantee they will, or that they have to, because unlike in a lot of instances where people just smear other characters for entirely baseless reasons, a lot of people DO have anti-Bruce sentiments that are rooted in entirely real justifications.....but that’s not an indictment of your pro-Bruce sentiments, and it doesn’t have to be, and you don’t need to take it as one. Which means you don’t have to defend him....there’s nothing to defend, maybe. Your reasons for liking him have nothing to do with someone else’s reasons for hating him and they don’t need to go head to head and duel it out, necessarily.

Honestly, just whenever possible, just try to keep front and center in your mind and your reading of posts that like.....a lot of times “I hate Bruce” is actually more likely “I hate Bruce’s writing in x and y and z situations and stories” and that can make it a LOT easier to digest. 

I mean, going back to using myself as an example, obviously I’m hugely vocal in defensive of Dick Grayson, lol, but a lot of people question why I so often attack fanon characterizations of him specifically....and its specifically BECAUSE I’m attacking the tendency of so many fans to say “I hate Dick” when its actually in my eyes more “I hate Dick’s characterization - as depicted in these various fanon myths that only exist in fandom and have no basis outside it.” So THAT’S what I ‘defend’ Dick against more often than not, versus just....defending him against people who hate him - there’s no real counter for that, at the end of the day. You can’t MAKE someone like a character if they have actual real justifications for why.

But you CAN be clear about where it is you do and don’t agree with their view of a character.....is it because you have fundamentally different views of the character that are both rooted in canon basis, or is it because you feel they’re not accurately characterizing a character based on your knowledge of him, or is it because you both simply prioritize and focus on different areas of a character’s past writing? Etc. etc.

That won’t necessarily help you ‘win’ any arguments against an opposing viewpoint in fandom, but it will help you....deal with the existence of opposing viewpoints that have every bit as much validity as yours, I think. Just being able to recognize when someone isn’t criticizing or condemning the Bruce you know and love....its just that the Bruce they know and hate is kinda almost a different version of the character entirely.....but both versions can and do exist and its ultimately just a matter of finding some way to balance that.

I don’t know if that’s of any help at all, but hopefully there’s something in there that’ll be of use to you!