#apologies if I got anything wrong about everlark or THG

[unsiredtribrid]

I feel like so much of the theme of TBOSAS for Coriolanus and even Lucy Gray is choice. Like do you choose to humanize and have empathy for the people suffering on the other side, or do you become fearful and choose yourself always?

I think the burden of interpreting Lucy Gray that’s left on the shoulders of the reader is partly a test in and of itself. Like do you believe Billy Taupe’s accusations about her character, who was as fearful as Coryo and wanted Lucy Gray to die along with him (just the same as Coryo did in the end when he shot at her after he thought he was poisoned by the snake)? Or do you take Tigris’s interpretation where she thinks Lucy Gray is someone trying her best and doing what she has to in traumatic circumstances that are trying to get her killed?

Coryo also favored Tigris’s interpretation closer to the beginning of the book— he even joined Tigris and stood up for Lucy Gray’s character in the face of the Grandma’am’s bigotry. And he really did believe it, too. But then as the book goes on and he’s groomed and then put into situations where he has to choose between his own fear and being more empathetic, he lets fear win. He starts questioning if Lucy Gray is just using everyone (in that case, men) around her, which also mirrors how Billy Taupe spoke of her.

In the end, both men did choose that they would rather have her dead than not have her at all. Which, to me, when you compare that with the things Lucy Gray has actually actively done so far, is a pretty strong indicator that Tigris’s views are the ones that are more ‘correct’.

No, we can’t see into her head. Yes, she probably started out flirting and using her charm to try and get a shot at surving the games (which is one of the most appealing things about her character). But how do you as the reader interpret that? Do you think it’s someone doing what they have to to survive, or do you think of it more negatively and see her as a liar or someone you just can’t trust? In good faith and conscience, you would look at it and say that using one’s charms on the people of the Capitol to try to escape being killed by the Capitol is absolutely 100% fair game and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, it’s what people should be doing. In some respects, like with all performing, it becomes genuine connection and it moves people to understand you even if it started out ‘fake’. No one criticized or took issue with it when Peeta did it. And in the exact same way, it didn’t make Peeta less empathetic and kind to people of the Capitol who weren’t directly involved in what was happening to him. You as the reader can choose to believe that of Lucy Gray, just like you did with Peeta (even if, in Peeta’s case, you saw actual evidence of it since you weren’t reading from an unreliable narrator with limited perspective).

Whether Tigris is ‘right’ about Lucy Gray is almost irrelevant. What is relevant is the decision, as the reader, to assume the best in her and treat your opinion of her with empathy and the benefit of the doubt. That’s what Coryo should have done at the end of the book, but he didn’t. That’s part of the over arching theme about treating other people better and not dehumanizing them or assuming the worst in fear and paranoia.

Regardless of the fact we don’t get much time with her and we can’t see her inner monologue, what we do see Lucy Gray do isn’t anywhere in the ball park of what Snow ends up doing at the end and then after. Lucy Gray puts a snake down Mayfair’s dress to freak her out, but even that wasn’t something fatal. Mayfair was fine and she lived up until she was killed by Coryo. Lucy Gray stood up for herself against Billy Taupe (not to say there aren’t nuances to how their relationship probably became rocky off the page, before we’ve met either of them. I’m sure there are, even if we’ll never know them), but there’s no indication his claims are true. All we have is Lucy Gray’s word. She claims that she flirted a little as part of the job, but that’s all it was. She says she didn’t do sex work to survive, but openly admits she would if it meant keeping Maude Ivory alive. And that’s without including the other nuances of that conversation, which would be that she was 16 (and younger) and ‘sex work’ here would really be rape because it would likely involve men. So? Assuming anything less than savory because of Billy Taupe’s implications there just seems pretty dark/fucked up.

But back on track, my point: as the reader, do you choose to believe her, or are you paranoid? Do you choose to look at all of the situations she’s in and think she’s a survivalist using her charms and wit, or do you think she’s malicious in some way? How you think of her with little information is important and just kind of feels like its own test and thought exercise.

Even if she set the snake on Coryo, it wasn’t a poisonous one so it was little more than a distraction and maybe a way to get him to worry about that instead of chasing her. Even when she had suspicions he could kill her, she chose to use her smarts to flee and (maybe) survive. But in contrast, Coryo chose to try and finish her off because he didn’t like how his heart broke at the thought of her not ‘caring enough’ about what they have to even have a goodbye before he left. He hated the loss of control of the situation. It was part of the reason why he ended up involved in the rebel plot and killing Mayfair— he was obsessive over Sejanus and needed to feel like he was in control of him in some way. He needed to know what he was doing. And in some ways that was out of genuine love and care, but in some it was fear. And the fear is what made him choose betrayal when he got himself in that situation where he was surrounded by jabberjays and Sejanus was openly talking about a rebel plot that could get them both executed. He chose betrayal to save his own skin because he was scared. He wanted control and then he didn’t have the guts to go as far as he needed to, so he chose his own life. Same thing with Lucy Gray when he fired that gun. He was scared of the unknown factors. Started worrying about her killing him or telling on him and all sorts of things because he was scared and he chose not to believe in her.

Will we ever know if Lucy Gray actually cheated on Billy Taupe? No. Will we ever have more than her word? No. Will we ever know if she was truly attracted to Coryo at the start of their flirtation or if that was 100% a tactic until she caught feelings later? No. Will we ever know if she set the snake on purpose or even if she knew it was venomless? No, not really. But that’s not the point. The point is, do you look at her actions laid out in front of us and choose to believe the best in her? Do you choose to be empathetic and see the situation from her perspective despite being directly in the head of the main character who was groomed (and scared) until he descended into madness?

Someone once said that the difference between everlark and snowbaird’s dynamic is Katniss and Peeta were willing to die for each other before they even knew if the other had definitive feelings for them that they could control. They loved each other even when they didn’t know the other’s exact feelings or their perspective. They were even directly posed to kill each other in the games because originally only one could survive, so they actually had every reason to choose paranoia and didn’t.

This ability to choose good faith seemed to persist even after Peeta was hijacked. But with snowbaird, Coryo had to ask Lucy Gray if it was real before he saved her life (in the movie, at least. In the book it was less cut and dry and he wondered if it was one sided in the midst of his feelings unfolding and far before he cheated to save her). Coryo even says himself to Lucy Gray that he knows his jealousy and the way he wanted her to be thinking about him (and be into him), is stupid. Because it is— she’s in a life or death situation fearing for her life and it would be a miracle for her to have time to figure out or even have a crush on someone when she’s about to die and every ounce of energy is put into both that and the fact she’s locked in an actual cage. It is actually stupid for him to be jealous over that.

But again, as the reader, (to flip the script for a second and talk about Coryo’s side) do you interpret this as Coryo being a complete piece of shit who doesn’t care about her at all and is ‘sociopathic’ for worrying about how she feels about him in this situation? Do you think them having feelings at all is just completely trivial in the face of a life and death situation where she has more to worry about? Or do you choose to believe that Coryo is a teenager here who has grown up living in situations where his life hasn’t been safe and he’s been starving, so that’s just the norm for him at this point, and it’s actually beautiful that he was able to feel something like a crush or love in the midst of something actually traumatic? Even though the tributes have it much worse, the Academy kids have been groomed into this worldview and have been dying (and just generally being hurt and traumatized) during this program that the adults devised in order to test/‘perfect’ their own war crimes and fascism.

But to circle back to the snowbaird and everlark point, there’s a huge difference in perspective that the ships had here and the outcomes/results were completely different. Snow didn’t find peace. He was paranoid and bitter and awful. Katniss and Peeta had to work at it but they could find moments of peace because they chose to believe.

I’m a snowbaird shipper and not an everlark shipper (soz, they just don’t give me buzz 😔) because I personally find alllll of these things about Coryo and Lucy Gray to be really fascinating and I think they have insane chemistry. I also think it’s sort of like a Greek tragedy, in a way. It feels like they had a lot stacked against them, even their very personalities, but despite that they did feel real love. And I think that’s beautiful.

But I wanted to talk about all of this because people discuss Lucy Gray a lot in terms of if she was ‘manipulative’ and sometimes people even just flat out put blame on her, which… I don’t even know how to address that because it’s very hard for me to understand how they could read the book and come to that conclusion in any way. But yeah, these are my thoughts on it and just generally the technique Suzanne used for Lucy Gray’s character and how readers engage with that.

[saltpepperbeard]

☕️ galey bird

THEM’S FIGHTING WORDS, ANON LOL. THAT NAME ALONE IS ENOUGHTO INDUCE RAGE. I honestly can’t even watch THG anymore without snapping somekind of something/shouting profanity at him whenever he comes on screen lol. SOYES, LET’S DISCUSS THIS LOVELY INDIVIDUAL SHALL WE. I’m about to go on a HELLof a tangent, because I of course have OPINIONS™. Some of which actually aren’t that bad actually lmao BUT I DIGRESS; HE ALWAYS MAKES ME EXTRA AF-

*Lowers the Extra Meter* Okay. In all honesty, I canappreciate Gale as a character. He’s written well, and he’s rather complex. Heis very hardheaded and sticks to his goals, so much so that he isn’t afraid tothrow other people completely out of the way. Very very strong-willed, veryvery loyal, and very very fiery. Definitely makes for an interesting character.

…HOWEVER LOL, my appreciation for him is very quickly tarnisheddue to how he treats Katniss throughout the series. And how he acts in responseto her actions/motivations.

I will say, their relationship was acceptable in THG. Heactually was tolerable during this book, as I appreciated their friendship/howthey’d been hunting together for the majority of their lives. And how they’dbeen helping their families along after the mining accident. Even BEFORE Istarted shipping Everlark however, and even BEFORE I knew Everlark was endgame,I didn’t hop on any kind of romantic Katniss x Gale train. I viewed them onlyas hunting partners, and as friends.

Soooooo when mr. gALEY BIRD started showing feelings forKatniss, and when he made things worse by being an ASS about it lol, my likingfor him began to drop.

It’s very clear fromthe beginning of CF that Katniss wasn’t wild about romantic involvement withGale. She talks a lot about their families managing during the food shortagesand what not, but then she also goes on to say “I’m sure plenty of peopleassumed that we’d eventually get married even if I never gave it any thought.”And then she mentions Peeta and how she’s unsure of how exactly she feelstowards him. But like, STRAIGHT UP WAS LIKE “i never thought to marry galelmao.”

And THEN, he randomly kisses her right. And instead of beinglike “oooh that’s nice :),” she literally sits by the fence and has to decidewhether she liked it or resented it. And thought about Peeta. And just wenthome lmao. And decided to prepare a speech about “never wanting a boyfriend andnever planned on marrying.” LIKE…SHE WAS PRETTY CLEAR.

But he continues to lay it on thick in CF, and goes fromlike 0 to 100 flirt wise whenever he can. I think because he gets majorlyjealous of Peeta, and tries to win her affections back from him. But like…Hedoesn’t seem to respect her feelings towards Peeta at all. She’s MAJORLYconfused/conflicted in early CF, because Gale’s coming at her and she’s like“tf this is my best friend i Don’t Want This but i’m Hurting Him” and thenshe’s like “everything i did with peeta was for the games…bUT WAS IT REALLYTHOUGH???” So she’s just in this STORM and he doesn’t really do anything toalleviate that.

AND OKAY, TO BE FAIR LOL, both boys were actually erring onthe problematic/entitled side in early CF. Peeta was all pissy because he“didn’t want to forget” and consequently went cold on Katniss for a bit, andthen Gale’s advances are only met with Katniss going :/. SHOUTOUT TO THE “ILOVE YOU/I KNOW” LMAO.

BUT, difference between Gale and Peeta, Peeta apologizes forhis actions. He has a conversation with her about it, and decides to start overas friends, which she appreciates. Because she mentions something about wantinga regular, uncomplicated friendship with Gale again, but he doesn’t even giveher that option. He just keeps pushing and getting more possessive, especiallyas she gets closer with Peeta.

And of course my favorite example of the disconnect with howGale/Peeta treat her is the lovely “running away” example lmao. When she asksGale, he picks her up and is all for it, but sours up the second she mentionsPeeta/refuses his advances. Peeta on the other hand, agrees, asks if Gale iscoming, and is completely fine with everything. While Peeta did admit to beingjealous of Gale, he doesn’t…ACT LIKE AN ASS ABOUT IT LOL. He’s willing totolerate him if it means Katniss is happy. Matter of fact, to quote from thefreaking BEACH KISS-

“Peeta’s intention is clear. That Gale really is my family,or will be one day, if I live. That I’ll marry him. So Peeta’s giving me hislife and Gale at the same time. To let me know I shouldn’t ever have doubtsabout it.”

LIKE??? HOLY SHIT LOL. GALE WOULD NEVER, MY DUDE. “You canmarry Peeta it’s okay Katnip I know you love him” LIKE LOL NOPE FALSE FAKE NEWS.

He even went out of his way to help Gale after he gotwhipped too. He took him back to the house, watched over him for Katniss, andwhile he was probably feeling jealous, did NOT complain about it. Just makes methink of Gale not giving a shit about Peeta suffering in the Capitol lmao.

…HEY SPEAKING OF MOCKINGJAY LOL, I GET PARTICULARLYJKJSLDKSDS. Mockingjay is weird actually, because unlike THG/CF, there’s a characterization rift between the books and the movies, at least in the first half. During the first part of the book, it seems like the thing that predominantly drives a wedge between him and Katniss is his commitment to war/fighting/killing. He starts really getting into it, wanting to appease Coin, making deadly traps, etc. And a lot of anger erupts between him and Katniss consequently.

Because, she of course can’t kill senselessly, and death is extremely personal to her. But to him, it’s not; he can easily GRA-TA-TA without much thought, as long as it means he comes out on top. And throughout Mockingjay, it seems Katniss can tolerate that mindset less and less. Which of course leads to her saying “I don’t need Gale’s fire. I have plenty of fire myself.” He starts thinking like the people she’s been trying to fight, so he later turns into the enemy himself. 

SCREWS HIMSELF RIGHT OVER, HE DOES.

And like…I can actually appreciate having him fight so selflessly? Like, a lot of D12 citizens definitely would have died without him jumping into action. He definitely doesn’t hesitate to fight for what he believes in, and that’s admirable. But he just…starts going about it the wrong way in Mockingjay, especially towards the end. And that’s just…can’t hAVE THAT, MY GUY.

Buutttttt then we have movie!Gale lmao. And I think Gale in both of the Mockingjay movies is predominantly where most of my salt comes from. Which. yeah yeah I know, naysayers; it’s technically not fair because that’s simply an adaptation of his character. BUT IT’S STILL HIM IN THE END LMAO SO I JUST.

On top of his war commitment, there’s also major possessiveness/jealousy still going on, which makes him all the more difficult to bare lol. Like in the movies, he doesn’t care about the fact that Peeta’s suffering at ALL. He glares at Katniss when she watches propos, he refuses to support Peeta whatsoever, he makes all sorts of backhand comments…And then oddly enough is the first to volunteer for Peeta’s rescue lmao. THAT doesn’t make sense. His characterization doesn’t know what it wants to do in those movies. (And then like also he wants to kill those in the Capitol without much thought but then says it’s not fair to hunt the buck in D13 like????) Other than iNDUCE ANGER.

In the books, he at least backed off his advancements towards Katniss, which she said she appreciated because she felt like they could just be friends again. Though, I’m not sure if it was entirely genuine/coming from the right place? Katniss mentioned something about Peeta being out of the picture and the fake-marriage thing not hanging over Gale’s head, which in turn made him a Normal Freaking Person again. Which…KIND of makes me narrow my eyes, because like…he should have just acted normal around her like that REGARDLESS of what was going on, REGARDLESS if Peeta was there or not.

“WHAT WOULD PEETA MELLARK DO.”

And it’s so unfortunate because she legitimately appreciated his company/their friendship. Idk why he had to get so bent out of shape about trying to get her to love him back, and getting pissy when she started to fall for someone else instead. Like, I’m sure if he had just held his tongue, it would’ve made things way easier on their friendship.

It also makes a little more sense that he volunteered to save Peeta in the books, because he AT LEAST wasn’t pissed off towards him 24/7 like he was in the movies lol. I imagine his jealousy was still there, but he was probably doing it to make Katniss happy. He was probably trying to score some points with her lmao.

Jodi? Not trusting Gale at all? IT’S MORE LIKELY THAN YOU THINK.

And then I feel like the characterization matches back up for the second half of Mockingjay/MJ2. He starts getting all possessive again with Peeta back in the picture, and his attitude towards fighting gets completely amplified when they’re in an actual warzone. Annndd so therefore I start getting mad at him all over again lmao.

It actually makes me my angriest whenever he complains about Katniss kissing him and it not feeling genuine, whenever he lowkey highkey manipulates her into trying to fight by saying “I don’t think Snow used any rulebooks when he hijacked Peeta,” and when he says he’ll kILL PEETA WHENEVER THE CHANCE ARISES LIKE??? YO. IT MAKES ME SO READY TO FIGHT HIM LOL.

SO. TL;MAJORLYdr, I’m okay with him in both the movie and book of THG, NOT okay with him in the movie and book of CF, OKAY with him in the early part of the book in MJ, but NOT okay with him in the later half or the two MJ movies.

It’s like…Essentially, I appreciate his friendship with Katniss. I like when they cooperate, and when their fiery attitudes kind of match each other. But he tarnishes that whenever something else comes into the picture, be it war or Peeta. He kind of turns their friendship on its head for the sake of wanting to fight a certain way, or by trying to get Katniss into loving him when all she wants is a friendship.

And it’s sO…Like I almost feel bad for them, more so for Katniss though lmao. Like if he had just been more patient with her, and more understanding of what she wanted, then maybe things would have turned out better between them. Like, MAYBE they could have still been friends after the rebellion, and wouldn’t have to throw away years of friendship.

Buutttt he didn’t, chose instead to be problematic on multiple accounts, and so I’m definitely clinging to Peeta lmao, tHE GENTLE AND UNDERSTANDING ONE.