#anti Madeline miller

[june-sunsets]

Your response reeks of 'I will twist every sentence into something else'. First of all;

'How nice of you to accuse me of xenophobia because I believe that a book that hasn’t even been published shouldn’t be ridiculized. Very rational.'

I did not accuse you of xenophobia. Where on earth did I accuse you of xenophobia? You read 'you're going into these retellings without fully grasping the purpose and cultural value of Greek mythology' and what you got from it was 'xenophobia'? Are you kidding me? What I wrote is literally what it says on the tin (which is not xenophobia). And OP did not ridiculize anything; they made a humorous speculation on a future book and you couldn't handle it. Very mature.

'If you believe that the concept of ancient greek mythology retellings as a whole is disrespectful, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I just find it completely unnecessary to insult this woman’s intelligence and speak of her as if she’s an idiot to be led by the nose.'

In the conclusion of my 'rambling' I state that this isn't about all retellings being inherently bad:

I believe a good retelling can be done. It's possible. Unfortunately, they are extremely hard to find (or, apparently, extremely hard to write). Most myth retelling writers do the same mistake Miller does; looking at ancient myths through a modern lense, and judging them based on that. Then they claim they can 'fix' them (which is another level of insulting) and they end up distorting those myths to the point where they are completely different stories, unrelated to the original source.

Also no one insulted Miller's intelligence? No one called her an idiot. In fact, she might know exactly what she's doing. I just don't agree with it, I think it's wrong and she's being disrespectful to the mythology and the culture it originated from.

(There is a general misconception of Greek culture in general when it comes to Western academic circles. It's frustrating.)

'And how is that her fault? Anybody who buys a retelling and becomes convinced that they are reading the true and original version of the story is an idiot. Madeline Miller’s books are advertised towards adults.'

That's true, anybody who buys a retelling thinks they are reading the true of the story is an idiot. But there's a problem in Miller's attitude towards mythology as well. How is it also not her fault, when she says things like 'the ending of the novel is a huge pushback against mythology' in her interviews? Really, Miller? Are you comparing yourself to Homer? Are you saying your retelling is on a par with this thousands-of-years-old epic? Be for real.

Ultimately, the fact that she's a Classicist means little to me when she characterizes mythological figures -mortals and gods- in a way that reduces them to caricatures; she simplifies them so they can fit the boxes of modern character tropes.

That's when retellings become direspectful. And that's an instance where changing an existing character's personality is bad writing. Especially when this character was originally pretty complex and means something to the people of this culture.

As a Greek person, I have the right to call her out on that.

I didn't accuse you of xenophobia, but I'm pretty sure you accused me of being anti-art. So no, I'm not anti-art. I'm just Greek and irritated with Miller's BS. People are allowed to express criticism on art. All art, including Miller's.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

[dootznbootz]

Hi. I'm cyberbullying a long dead poet because of his shitty fanfic. Enjoy. I'd love it if you joined me.

(Before you get mad at me, yes, I know Eugammon of Cyrene is an important figure and all that. I'm sick with some sort of flu. Let me cyberbully an ancient dead fanfic writer in peace.)

[mythsandheather]

The real question about Greek mythology is who hates it more?

‘Feminist retelling’ authors looking to make a quick buck, Hades/Persephone shippers or DC Comics?

[bugwolfsstuff]

Am i wrong?

I have personal beef with Ovid (IF I HAVE TO GET INTO ONE MORE ARGUMENT ABOUT MEDUSA WITH SOMEONE IM SELLING SOMEONE TO ONE DIRECTION), every time I mention him picture me saying it with the exact expression and tone as this:

[blue-lotus333]

Reminder: Circe is NOT Hermes Ex, that was made up by Madeline miller in her modern book “Circe”. no where in the Odyssey does it say they had a relationship.

[bassiascoparia]

LET'S ENJOY GREEK MYTH RETELLINGS AND STORIES BUT NOT TAKE ALL OF THEM SERIOUSLY

You know, I really have to say this.

I don't think that Greeks, Hellenistic Pagans and other people who know Greek Mythology would be as frustrated as they are today if people DIDN'T TAKE MODERN SOURCES DEPICTING GREEK MEDIA AS ALWAYS ACCURATE.

Bear with me now.

All right, so, we all know about Percy Jackson.

And PJO was basically the Greek God make or break of its time and it broke the Greek Gods. Greeks and Hellenistic Pagans had the unfortunate experience of being bombarded with false, incorrect interpretations and thoughts about their deities.

And we have to remember here that to these Hellenistic Pagans, their gods are as sacred to them as God is to Christians. Maybe they wouldn't kill people over their gods, an added bonus, but we must respect the fact that they worship the gods and we must be respectful of Greek Gods when interacting with them.

See, I'm not saying that you can't be lighthearted. You can joke around and all that-it's just that actually hating and condemning the Greek Gods shouldn't be done when you're interacting with their worshippers.

Now that I'm done with that, well, Rick Riordan fucked up with Greek Mythology big time. Making Athena have children, HIS MISOGYNY. THERE ARE ENTIRE TAGS DEDICATED TO RICK'S MISOGYNY, NOT JUST OF HIS FEMALE CHARACTERS BUT OF ACTUAL ANCIENT GREEK GODDESSES. If I did a whole essay on his misogyny, I'd have to make multiple posts.

Rick done fucked up with them. I do not have to be the first person to tell you that.

HOWEVER, I am obligated to say that any author is freely able to portray the Greek Gods as they want (unfortunately at times).

And so Rick is free to interpret them how he likes.

Let's also remember that Rick thought terribly of the Gods and their worshippers when he was writing Percy Jackson and the other series.

Of course, he HAS changed for the better. Now he's more respectful of Pagans and has apologised, which is nice, but I just thought I'd let you know.

See, now we can accept and criticise Rick's writing, but before-

Well, before, it was absolutely awful for Greeks and Hellenistic Pagans. I mean, it's still awful, but it was more awful back then because almost nobody criticised Percy Jackson about depicting Greek Gods terribly. Everyone said that Greek Gods were American and belonged to America-ugh, that was horrible. It's absolutely appalling to do that, no less to Greeks themselves. People ranted about how horrible the gods were.

And I mean yes, the Greek Gods could be awful by modern standards, but we need to remember two things-

The Greek Gods were based on an ANCIENT SOCIETY with DIFFERENT MORAL STANDARDS. Judging them by modern moral standards isn't going to do anything.

The actions of the gods were SYMBOLIC, NOT LITERAL.

a) Artemis' cruelty towards humans? That's the cruelty of nature towards him. Artemis was a nature goddess and she hunted and resided in the wild.

b) Dionysus being kind and charming but also mad and ruthless at times? Well, that's what wine does. It can make people funny and charming to a point, but it also drives people mad and makes them violent.

c) Hades kidnapping Persephone? Well, Hades represents death, and that's what death does-it rips children from their parents' arms. Also, it signifies the fact that daughters and mothers did not have a say in their marriage, the father could give the girl away to any man in those times. Demeter actually being able to get Persephone back was a comfort to grieving mothers.

d) Zeus cheating on Hera multiple times?

There are multiple explanations for this one.

First, kings and princes often claimed to be descendants of Zeus, so Zeus was said to have many affairs with royal mortal women so that their claims to divine lineage could be accurate.

Second, Zeus' rain represented fecundity and fertility. As I said above, the actions of the gods are symbolic and they represent their domains, so he had multiple affairs and loads of children to signify his fertility.

Third, the Greek Gods were based on Ancient Greek society where multiple men took concubines and lovers. And Zeus did this too, because he was a king!

e) Hera punishing the lovers and bastards? That's what queens did to some concubines for revenge, since they couldn't take it out on the king.

It's all either symbolic or based on Ancient Greece. The gods that humanity created were based on those times, and they were created millennia ago, when things were different in nearly every way possible.

Anyway, what I'm trying to tell you is that we're allowed to have fun with these stories and retellings that include Greek Mythology, but if you really want correct information on Greek gods, go and read the myths and the compositions of Ancient Greek poets and playwrights (Homer, Hesiod, etc).

Because many people, when reading these modern retellings and the like, think that they are actually real mythological information and accordingly spew nonsense.

People call Apollo 'Asspollo' and harass his worshippers because of one incorrect comic that came out in 2018. Apollo never raped Persephone.

And people also view famous figures like Odysseus and Achilles incorrectly because of incorrect translations that don't correctly capture the original and CERTAIN RETELLINGS (cough-Madeline Miller-COUGH)

And there are so many more examples I could give, but then this would be too long to post.

See, it's not that the writers completely rip the original lore out. They keep a lot of it, but they also add in some incorrect information. And sometimes this isn't that bad or malicious, it's just incorrect.

So if you're not sure about whether something in a retelling or story depicting Greek Gods is true, you should search it up online or ask someone who knows.

Because Greeks and Hellenistic Pagans are constantly frustrated at how their gods are portrayed and that everyone just takes the retellings as mythologically correct.

TLDR Greek mythology retellings can be fun for you to read but don't take all of the info in them as mythologically correct. You can be lighthearted about the Greek Gods but please don't actually loathe or mock them with others who believe in them and worship them. If you're not sure about info in a retelling or story, then search it up or ask someone you know.

There are multiple blogs on tumblr who can tell you more information about the actual Greek Gods and they're pretty nice about it too, so don't be too afraid.

[1800naveen]

I hate Greek retellings.

I don't actually hate them like that. I have a few that I love (Percy Jackson, God of war, etc).

Shit like "a Hades and Persephone retelling!" Pisses me off.

Lore Olympus did some damage, fuck Rachel Smythe. Persephone is a self insert of her and Hades is apparently based on Mads Mikkelsen.

AND HOW SHE PORTRAYED APOLLO? He's one of my favorite gods and I don't remember a myth where he "assaulted" someone (correct me if I'm wrong!)

How did she see Apollo and go "I'm going to make him a rapist!" There are a bunch of gods and goddesses who are that, why him?

People had the sheer fucking audacity to attack pagans/witches who work with Apollo. Bitch, it's a real religion/belief that people have been following since the ancient times?

Is this a safe place to say I'm not a fan of Madeline Miller? Circe assaulted Odysseus and Achilles tries to assault Tenes' sister, murdered Tenes, and assaulted Troilus who is Apollo's son in APOLLO'S OWN TEMPLE.

Paris is an icon for putting him down🙏🏾

[alatismeni-theitsa]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/25/books/greeks-myths-adaptions.html

Westerners never cease to amaze me with their entitlement - this was nearly too infuriating to even read.

Also, honorary mention: “There’s no final word on anything, because language is always changing, so there’s no definitive myth,” said Miller, who is currently working on a new novel about Persephone and Demeter, her mother. “These were fluid texts right from the beginning.”

Said Miller, who twists and bends myths and cultural elements beyond recognition so as to excuse all her inaccuracies and downright murder of the Mythos. Also, it's a known fact that Miller sees Demeter as an oppressive mother and that she bases said belief on British poetry of the 19th century. Therefore, when that monstrosity of a book does come out (where Persephone is twice assaulted by Zeus, no doubt), I honestly wonder how they will find a way to present her portrayal of Demeter as "feministic", especially knowing her previous distaste towards maternal and female familial figures, in general (Thetis, Kirke's mom and sisters etc).

The article is titled "The Women of Greek myths are finally talking back". Which is disgusting because the Women who talk are Western Anglo women and they cover with their voices the voices of modern and ancient Greek women.

They paint our antiquity and our struggle like some type of torture porn and, in the process, ignore how much depth and power female characters were given in our ancient texts.

Those retellings are a cheaply written, stereotyped power fantasy for Western women who use us and our ancestors to feel like they are doing something against the Patriarchy.

[ri-dumb-fck]

A good day to remember that Circe wasn't a victim in any situation she was put through. Odysseus and Scylla was.

[corvid-ghost]

Its always so strange when people say they hate Odysseus because of tsoa - like bro those are 2 different characters, but also why? Like hes just a dude in that. Personally I didn't like the book and honestly my favorite parts were when he was in it. It was awhile ago when I read so I don't remember specifics, but as far as I'm aware, he's just a guy? Who shows up like twice? How did people decide to hate a character from a different peice of media because of this?

[memoryyong]

I am so anti Madeline Miller it is insane

(Sorry if it looks blurry, idk how to fix that)

[wordsmithic]

We should start a club of anti Madeline miller like how Colleen hoover fell from grace after this huge amount of worshipping her as the mother of rom com books.

We really should! I can't wait for people to see Miller for the colonising white savior-minded writer that she is. She didn't understand anything from her studies if she presents the ancient Greeks and Greek gods like that.

[bugwolfsstuff]

Didyoujustfuckingshootme

What do you mean I have to compare book 10 of the actual Odyssey to Madeline Miller

What do you MEAN I HAVE TO COMPARE THE FUCKING SOURCE MATERIAL TO A 'FEMINIST' RETELLING

WHAT DO I HAVE TO GAIN BY DOING THIS?

You already called Circe and Medea exceptional heroines in this classroom im already dead stop desecrating my body and everything that is sacred to me, Xenia goes both ways

They don't even write the rest of the source text after this its just (beautifully drawn) comic snapshots of what happens in the next books that give no context so its confusing AF to everyone else in this hell hole

[blue-lotus333]

There needs to be more circe (by madeline miller) slander

[be-it-so]

I was going through the Deidamia tag, and why the hell is it all about tsoa

[that-guy-in-the-chiton]

When Circe (Homer) Meets Circe (Miller):