#and this isnt to suggest a black and white mentality of 'removing a book from curriculum is always fine'

[cogentranting]

The thing that almost never gets brought up in "banned books" conversations but that I think is essential to address, is the distinction between "students shouldn't be allowed to read this" and "students shouldn't be required to read this".

There is a wide gulf between removing a book from a curriculum list and removing a book from a library but I almost never hear that acknowledged.

[dalekofchaos]

Reasons to side with The Stormcloaks

So I made a post on why I believe The Imperials is the right choice in The Skyrim Civil War. An anon requested I do some suggestions for why The Stormcloaks are right. To be fair. I believe that both The Imperials and Stormcloaks are right and wrong in their own way. I just think it’s smarter to side with the Imperials. With that out of the way, let’s start with the pros and cons of the Stormcloaks

Pros

The Stormcloaks are right to rebel. When The Great War ended and The White-Gold Concordat was signed and The Empire and The Aldmeri Dominion made peace. Not only was the worship of Talos banned, The Blades were disbanded, the cession by the Empire of a large portion of southern Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion and the right for the Thalmor to move throughout the Empire after the Empire didn't enforce the White-Gold Concordat, to hunt down both worshipers of Talos. So not only was the worship of Talos banned. But The Blades who guarded The Emperors for generations were forcefully disbanded, The Empire allowed The Thalmor to take a limited control over a portion of Hammerfell, showing Hammerfell how weak the Empire became and causing resentment to the Empire and The Thalmor Justiciars kidnaps and rounds up anyone who dares to worship Talos in secret or openly. When you allow the very force that you were fighting  in The Great war to kidnap innocent civilians in the dead of night from their own homes and for them to be tortured for their right to worship, you have shown Skyrim that you have failed her. The Stormcloaks are right to rebel

When The Empire made peace with The Aldmeri Dominion, the province of Hammerfell had to withdraw/be kicked out of The Empire and continue fighting on it’s own. The Thalmor has not managed to achieve their goals in Hammerfell, and the resistance is very much alive and well there. If they can do it, so can Skyrim.

Ralof is the first friend the Dragonborn makes regardless of what race you choose if you choose to go with him. 

Yes The Stormcloaks and mostly the population of Windhelm are racist. But it’s not as black and white as it may seem. The Gray Quarter. The assumption is that Ulfric forces The Dunmer to live in The Gray Quarter.  But with some research you would realize this to be quite untrue. The Dunmer are not forced to live anywhere. The live in nanny for the Cruel-Seas, and the owner of the Hlaalu farm do not. If Ulfric truly wanted to segregate them why do two Dunmer not live there? Consider this, the Dunmer probably moved to Windhelm right after the eruption of the Red Mountain or the Argonian invasion. Both of which happened before Ulfric was Jarl. So they must've lived in the Gray Quarter before Ulfric was in power. For whatever reason it must've fallen apart and became what it is today. You might be thinking, "Why doesn't Ulfric fix it?" He's in the middle of a war, it's a rebellion fighting an Empire, it's not going to be easy. Another reason is if they did ruin it on their own, it's not Ulfric's responsibility to fix it. If they destroyed it on their own, why would the Jarl have to spend tax payers dollers to fix something that's not even city property? The next is the Argonians, I actually don't think they are completely forbidden from entering the city. It's never said they can't go in at all? It's just said they can't live in it. Maybe they can't live in it because their is no room. Do you know four empty houses in Windhelm they could move into? Also, Shahvee bought an amulet of Zenithar. Where would she have gotten that from? Inside the city perhaps? Finallly, the Khajiit Caravans aren't allowed in any cities, Stormcloak or Imperial. So you can't just blame the Stormcloaks for that. Brunwulf Free-Winter says Ulfric only helps Nords who are in trouble as opposed to the other races. You can get a bounty form Jorleif to kill a giant that is attacking travelers. Which shows that Ulfric did do something for the non-Nords (I assume travelers are people foriegn to Skyrim). Also, even if he did do this he fails to consider something. That their are obviously more Nords in Skyrim then the other races. Meaning if a Nord village gets attacked a lot of innocent people will be hurt or die. While if a couple of Dunmer or Argonians are wondering around Skyrim less people would be hurt or killed. It's a needs of the many outweight the needs of the few sort of mentality.  

There has not been a true High King Of Skyrim for several generations. Generally when the High King Of Skyrim dies, The Emperor picks somebody to be his pawn King Of Skyrim in order to ensure that the people of the province is under Imperial control. In other words, The High King is sure to be somebody who foremost looks after the interest of The Emperor instead of the interests of his own people.

The Markarth Incident is a pro-Stormcloak argument. The book written in the game was propaganda. The Markarth incident was started by the Empire, not Ulfric. They were the ones who promised free worship to the Nord militia led by Ulfric due to being desperate. Ulfric did not do this because he was asked by the Thalmor, or as a plot to start the civil war. He simply wanted Nords to be able to freely worship and not hide like daedra worshippers. Igmund himself. They made the deal, Ulfric did his part of the deal, and then when the elves find out about it, what did the Empire do? They went through this short checklist. Is the province in question Cyrodiil? (Y/N) Since it's not. they threw Ulfric under the bus and reneged on the deal that THEY themselves made. So the Markarth incident was actually another pro-Stormcloak argument showing how exactly the Empire treats any province that isnt Cyrodiil (sacrificial lambs).And, the funny thing is, the entire reason the Forsworn Uprising even happened is because, yet again in Igmund's(A Empire supporter) own words : "When the Aldmeri Dominion invaded the Imperial City, the Legion all but turned a blind eye to the other provinces. Many of the disgruntled natives of the Reach used the opportunity to depose the Empire, and founded what they called an independent kingdom. It was little more than a chaotic uprising, but the Reach was removed from Imperial authority for two years before we reclaimed it." So from the start until the end, everything was the Empire's fault yet again.

A unified Skyrim with all its fierce warriors will be a match for the Dominion. And with a probable alliance between Skyrim and the weak but still standing province of Hammerfell, The Aldmeri Dominion will have a real fight on their hands. The other provinces(Cyrodiil and High Rock) will have to either stand by and watch the war, or join this new “Alliance Of Tamriel” against The Dominion. Since everyone more or less knows that the war between Mer and Men could and will start any day now, these provinces will probably have to join in pretty soon in order to in longterm protect/save themselves. Cyrodiil will have to go back to being a kingdom when Skyrim becomes independent, since High Rock probably doesn’t want to be part of a two province only empire.

With The Stormcloaks in charge of Skyrim, the disbanded and scattered Blades now have a safehaven where they once again can gather and regrow, protected by the people and armies of Skyrim from The Thalmor who have been hunting them for decades within the very borders of The Empire.  The Blades might play a big part in uniting the various armies against The Aldmeri Dominion.

You might be thinking that Skyrim and the Stormcloaks aren’t strong enough to fight The Thalmor, well no. First of all, the Nords have been fighting Elves for years. Why would the Dominion be any different? Most would say, “the whole Empire couldn’t beat them, how would only the Nords do it?”. Actually, though the Empire was wounded, the Dominion was also very weakened. Their main general was killed and every soldier in Cyordiil. That was one of the largest armies ever assmbled in Elven history. And since Elves reproduce slower, they would probably have a much harder time recovering. Hammerfell alone was able to beat them, and they were just as hurt as Cyordiil from the Great War, they also had a civil war between the Crowns and the Forbears before that. So Hammerfell was not in a good position and yet they still beat the Dominion. Why can’t Skyrim? Also, they could make an alliance with Hammerfell and the two of them could work together. Also, the Stormcloaks offered High Rock an allaince, they didn’t instantly reject them which shows that they might be thinking about it. These three nations would put up one hell of a fight for the Dominion.

Despite what the dossier of Ulfric said. Ulfric is not an agent of The Thalmor. The reason the Thalmor would consider him an asset is because he might help start a war in Skyrim. That's what the Thalmor want, a long drawn bloody war. They actually say in the Dossier "A Stormcloak victory is to be avoided". If the war is ended quickly the Thalmor won't get the benefit because little lives and resources will have been lost.

If The Dragonborn aids The Stormcloaks. We have a likely chance of the story of Tiber Septim being paralleled with The Last Dragonborn. Right hand man to the High King Of Skyrim. Master Of The Voice eventually becoming Emperor. In Morrowind The Nerevarine unites the five houses of Morrowind and the Ashlanders, brings an end to The Tribunal, stops Dagoth Ur thus completing the Nerevarine Prophecy, completes the Bloodmoon Prophecy(in which he fucking fights The Daderic Prince Hircine!), kills the god Almalexia, gains the corpus disease and becomes immortal and goes on a expedition to Akavir. In Oblivion The Hero Of Kvatch/Champion Of Cyrodiil finds the heir to the Emperor, helps Martin Septim become Emperor, shuts down the Oblivion gates stopping the Dadera horde, Martin Septim sacrifices himself and becomes the avatar of Akatosh to stop Mehrunes Dagon and ends the Oblivion Crisis. The Hero Of Kvatch becomes The Champion Of Cyrodiil  and is known and celebrated throughout Cyrodiil for what we did to stop the Oblivion Crisis. then finds the relics of the crusader, becomes the divine crusader and defeats Umaril the Unfeathered. And lastly The Hero Of Kvatch goes to The Shivering Isles, does the bidding of Sheogorath, ends The Greymarch, stops Jyggalag and becomes the new Sheogorath. As for Skyrim, The Last Dragonborn fulfills the prophecy as Dragonborn and stops Alduin from ending the world, stops Harkon from plunging the world in eternal darkness and travels to Solstheim to stop Miraak, The First Dragonborn. I feel that Miraak is the true climax of the story. The First Dragonborn fighting The Last Dragonborn. Fight to the death between Dragonborns. That for me is basically the ultimate culmination of the game.  But I find it dissatisfying because it just doesn’t feel like anywhere near the level to The Shivering Isles or Tribunal. We don’t become a Daedric Prince or immortal. If anything I feel a new story DLC should be given where The Last Dragonborn becomes the new Emperor of Tamriel. Not High King, Emperor. Tidus Mede II is dead, we know nothing of heirs of The Meade Dynasty and it shouldn’t be unthinkable to assume that the Last Dragonborn can’t become The Emperor. Talos was Dragonborn and it was the Dragonblood that made the Septim Dynasty and a dragonborn who made Tamriel united. Skyrim was on the verge of seceding like Hammerfell did, most likely The Imperial side won canonically(which is for the best, Ulfric did exactly what The Thalmor wanted to divide and conquer so the Empire can fall easy in the next war) as for The Blades, the next duty of The Blades would be to guide The Dragonborn on the path of becoming Emperor because what else are they meant to do? What else can they do? Alduin is dead and it is the duty of The Blades to guide The Dragonborn and to protect The Emperor. The Dragonborn as Emperor can make the Empire stronger reunite Tamriel and unite a strong Tamriel against The Thalmor. Here’s why with The Dragonborn The Stormcloaks has a chance at stopping The Thalmor. Dragons. Depending if you choose to kill or spare Paarthurnax. You either gain Paarthurnax as an ally who spreads the way of the voice to the other Dovah or The Dragons recognize your Thu’um as the strongest and Alduin’s lordship is passed on to you.  Either way after Miraak’s defeat, The Last Dragonborrn becomes the most powerful being in all of Tamriel. He is the Harbinger Of The Companions, so The Companions can aid The Stormcloaks with their most strongest warriors, The Dragonborn restores The Bllades to their former glory. Guildmaster of The Thieve’s Guild, so Thieves can steal powerful artifacts that benefit The Thalmor, Archmage Of The College Of Winterhold, while Nords do not trust Mages, they will trust their Archmage and The Mages’ power of the arcane can rival that of the High Elves. Listener Of The Dark Brotherhood. As The Listener The Dark Brotherhood, he can arrange the deaths of important and high up Thalmor in power. He is the new Lord of the Volkihar Clan(let’s face it, absolutely no one chose to side with the Dawnguard) The Dragonborn is Champion to the Daedra. And with The Dragonborn being in service to  Hermaeus Mora, we have a chance to obtain Thalmor knowledge for our Daedric Prince of knowledge. Skyrim’s leadership needs to change. The current leadership of Skyrim needs to be destroyed. And that’s because Jarl Balgruuf can’t even maintain his own hold. It’s a crumbling piece of ruins, even before the dragons came back. Whiterun was a shadow of it’s former self. It used to be this massive trade hub, under Balgruuf, it’s garbage. Riften is a den of corruption and Jarl Lalia who has a carriage ready in case Riften falls to Imperials. It’s fitting that at least Riften’s leader survives but leaves it’s people to the mercy of Maven Black-Briar or the dragons. Each Jarl in Skyrim is equally incompetent. If Skyrim becomes independent, they will all be incompetent together meaning the province will fall that much faster. The only potential that Skyrim has to endure for a good period of time is get better leadership. The Thalmor do not want to conquer  men. The Thalmor want to deactivate the towers, destroy the race of men and remake Nirn so that they can be gods again. And it is our duty to stop this. With the Civil War over, Aludin, Harkon and Miraak defeated, what is there for the Dragonborn to do? Become Emperor and bring an end to The Thalmor. In almost ever Elder Scrolls games, the guild questlines are canon, so The Dragonborn kills Emperor Titus Mede II. The Dragonborn would lead the Stormcloaks to victory and The Dragonborn declares himself the new Dragonborn Emperor of the true Empire of Tamriel. He began a war with the old Empire of Tamriel and conquered it. Let’s say The Dragonborn walks into the Elder Council chambers and declares he killed Titus Mede II and declares himself Emperor. And pretty much everyone is calling for the Dragonborn’s death. But guess what the Dragonborn does next? BEND WILL! The Dragonborn uses the Bend Will shout on the Elder Council and the Elder Council declares you the Emperor of Tamriel. Now not only do we get a new Dragonborn Emperor, but we also have an army of dragons to join us. Paarthurnax could be convinced to join and lead the dragons on the path to the way of the voice to fight for The Dragonborn or if you do kill Paarthurnax, you gain Alduin’s lordship and the dragons will follow you. So you have an army of dragons and Paarthurnax as your ally. Where Tiber Septim had his personal dragon Nafaalilargus, The Dragonborn has Odahving. So with the combined might of  The Last Dragonborn, Dragons, the guilds and the Stormcloaks, The Thalmor will be stopped and The Summerset Isles will  be burned to ashes.  

Cons

Ulfric is power hungry and his bigoted nature and making Skyrim independent and isolationists will be a disaster. Ulfric does not care about Nords or Skyrim, all Ulfric cares about is Ulfric. and in his Thalmor Dossier, it is said that the war benefits the Thalmor, dragging it on bleeds the empire, divide and conquer.

The Stormcloak Jarls are either just dicks or generally incompetent. Skald is so dumb and arrogant to believe that Dragons have returned because of the Talos ban.  Laila-Law Giver is so blind to the corruption and crime that Maven is behind it all and she turns a blind eye to it. The Silverbloods gain power in Markarth. The bastards who jailed us for asking questions become Jarl. They are responsible for the majority of deaths in the city and used the Forsworn as slaves. Korir is blinded by his hatred of the mages to see they weren’t responsible for the great collapse. Vignar may be an asshole but he is willing to fight for Whiterun. As far as I’m concerned, the only Stormcloak Jarls worth keeping in power are  Sorli, and  Dengeir

The mistreatment of non-Nords in Windhelm is bad enough(not even Imperial smith in Whiterun is allowed to do anything in a Stormcloak Whiterun), but for all the holds, that will just bite Ulfric on his ass.

A free and independent Skyrim sounds good on paper but not so convincing in practice. It would only last so long before some spin-off of the Empire got pissed at the Stormcloaks. Probably people who aren’t Nords who are sick of being treated as second-rate crap, so there’d likely be yet another Civil War that would further destabalize the northern province.

The fight between High King Torygg was not Traditional Nordic Duel, it was not the old way. Yes Ulfric did challenge Torygg to the old way. But The Voice was not a just and fair combat. The Greybeards forbid the use of the voice in combat and it is not The Nords’ way.  Given what Torygg tells the player in Sovrnguard, he did have a chance to defend himself.    "When Ulfric Stormcloak, with savage Shout, sent me here, my sole regret was fair Elisif, left forlorn and weeping."   "I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?" Now, with dialogue from Sybille Stentor, We can start to see the Duel/Murder of High King Torygg was unnecessary, and Ulfric was more into taking the throne than succeeding from the Empire. She states that Torygg, if asked by Ulfric, Torygg may have stood up against the Empire. Skyrim could have seceded peacefully, like Hammerfell did long ago. Instead, with the killing of Torygg, war sparked. The civil war began.

Skyrim seceding from the Empire would be bad. From Sybille Stentor you ask about Torygg and said he respected Ulfric and that why he killed him is because Ulfric needed a symbol and if Ulfric asked him to declare Skyrim’s independece he might have done so. But Torygg knew that would be a bad idea. Why didn't Torygg ever declare independence? "Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart."

A Stormcloak victory is pretty bad.  Skyrim will no longer be part of the Empire. You now have a weak Empire and a weak Stormcloak rebellion. The Thalmor/Aldmeri Diminion will war with them, defeating the weakened Empire with ease. Though, unlike the Empire, the Stormcloaks have more of a chance to make allies, the Thalmor is large enough to defeat the singe-Provence rebellion.