#and thinking that a ship is a joke/worth nothing if it wasnt canon

[thesharondefenseleague]

mlm imo werent sexualized to the degree that wlw were in most canon media mostly because of the male gaze. Gay and Lesbian relationships or moments got very limited representation. One was probably more sympathetic but also heart breaking like say brokeback mountain. One was explicit but depicted as grotesque or twisted or perverted or immoral in some way. And the last version was the titillating version. In western media because of the assumed straight male gaze lesbians making out to titlate guys was a common thing like say in Jennifer's body. The equivalent of that with guys wasnt really that common not in western media. Not that wlw couldn't like that content but it was made to be fanservice for men .

So thats what I kind of mean by wlw were sexualized at least in western media. This equivalent with mlm in fandom never really existed they never made out for girls to find hot in the same way. It was never marketed like oh look hot guys making out. Fandom did that but not canon.

As for comic book men being sexualized kind of. There is definitely the unrealistic beauty standards but theres that debate of was it for the purpose of titillating women? Or a result of toxic masculinity putting this unattainable unsustainable goal for men. Maybe both? But both in comics and the movies they are based on the posing and clothing and moments with women get made to clearly sexualize them . It especially ovbious with comics with them twisting their bodies so their boobs and butts are jutting out. Or like movie moments like Bruce landing in Natasha's clevage. Or angles where you are staring down a female character's shirt or she has a boob window for some contrived reason. Or just reasons to give full page spreads of them in skimpy clothing.

Its rare men get depicted like this or posed like this. And when they do it often stands out because its not the norm. It's something unique. Not true with men. Even in form fitting spandex they are often posed and framed to make to make them look powerful or intelligent or to reveal things about their character.

Again not that men never get sexualized or that fanservice is always bad. Or that its not a concern that men are having these terrible body image issues. But just that for women for the sexualization its so pervasive and constant was my point.

Its just as bad in wlw in canon as it is for women in relationships with men in canon when it comes to that sexualization but i hear so much more about the problems about the wlw ship than the mlw ship. Like to use DC as a example i hear so much about how people sexualized or mishandle harleyivy but compared to that i hear very little about batcat in comparison even though Catwoman is often just as sexualized in that ship.

As for misogyny in shipping wars yes it definetly exists and is a problem as is racism and homophobia. But my issue is mostly that the problem isnt because the main popular ships are mlm. But so often I see the argument framed that way.

Like shipping wars existed between m/w ships and still do today. And they are still often pretty misogynistic towards the woman in the other ship. I don't even have to look at other fandoms I remember Steggy vs Starton getting real ugly.

Mysogny in fandom doesn't uniquely pop up when mlm are the more popular ship. Its often just as bad in fandoms where m/w is the popular ship. But people just bring it up alot more they make it bout valuing the men over the women .

Well i mean that goes both ways you could say its homophobic for valuing the straight ship as better than the gay one or liking it more. But either way its stupid they dont care bout sexism or homophobia only that their ship is more popular.

Thats the sentiment of all ship wars the gender dynamics and racial make up change nothing. Nothing except the bullshit you use for the ship war.

The problem is that people are being homophobic and mysogynistic and racist not just in regards to fictional characters but towards real people just to win a ship war. It comes out so easily. Thats the problem imo.

Mysogny for example i think isnt discussed as much when its a m/w vs m/w ship war or drama because as both ships have women it can't be used to slander the other ship. But when its drama between fans of a m/m and m/w it comes out alot again not because anyone really cares but because now because one ship lacks a woman it can be used as fodder for what people actually care about. Tearing down the other ship.

Again not that mlm fandom doesnt have mysogny. They definetly do. But they aren't mysogynistic because they ship two guys together. Thats not proof they hate women. Having a ship with women isnt proof that you aren't sexist towards women. There might be homophobia in fandoms of mlm ships and mysogny in fandoms of m/w ships.

But in the drama between a m/w and m/m ships that doesn't get brought up because no one cares if that problem can't be used to show that someone only doesn't ship your ship if they are bigoted against it. Who cares about misogyny if your ship is two guys? Who cares about homophobia if your ship is straight?

No one because they cared about the popularity of their ship not the actual issues.

Gonna under under the cut for length again.

This is a lot to read so I'm gonna respond paragraph by paragraph and hope for the best in terms of comprehension.

When it comes to media made about the LGBTQ+ community, you have to keep in mind when it was made, who made it, and who was it made for. And that it's been shown that straight women have had the same reactions to mlm content as straight men to wlw content. QaF was dumbfounded to find that the majority of their audience was straight women when the show's sex scenes were 95% between two or more men and yet that's what they ran with because hey, it got the views. The views of mlm and wlw content in the mainstream media before then was minimized, despite how fucked a lot of the other content could be. If by "most canon media" being directed at the male gaze being summer blockbusters, and more specifically comic book movies, then sure. If we step out of that box, then not really. The film examples you chose are interesting because BB is portrayed exactly how the author of the original short story wrote it which was meant to be heartbreaking since it was a tragic dramatic piece while JB has a woman who wrote and another woman who directed it while purposefully trying to allow to actress to have a level of sexuality without exploiting her as past directors have (also neither of the main characters are lesbians - one is bi, the other I think is straight but maybe questioning?).

The sexualization of wlw in modern western media is definitely a thing. I mean, the first Iron Man film has stewardesses on the private jet pole dancing if I remember correctly. It took until 2016 to stop sexualizing Scarlett in every movie: the changing scene in IM2, the lowered zipper in A1, the ass shot in Cap 2, the boob faceplant in AoU (in your third paragraph, but mentioning it here anyway). It's a joke that you know when a man directs a wlw indie film during the sex scenes. But the mlm equivalent did exist alongside it, and it's what kicked off the century.

Comics and their movies were always for men. The male bodies are male wish fulfilment for their physical appearance. The women are male wish fulfilment for their dream girls. Funnily enough, one of the least sexualized women in comics I've ever read is Sharon. She's rarely, if ever, drawn to be sexualized for the audience. I'm not even sure she's even been in those swimsuit issues Marvel did years ago. And it shows heavily that Marvel struggles to know how to appeal to women without being aggressively in your face about it. The best example of them appealing without pandering is WV, and the worst is the group shots the Russos did in IW and Endgame, especially the latter.

But the men get those poses in the movies too. Thor bathed shirtless for no reason in TDW. There's a scene in Endgame dedicated to talking about Steve's ass. Pratt in GotG. Rudd in Ant-Man. Most actors are expected to look good shirtless and put themselves through intense shit to look that way. So do the women, but they aren't doing it to have the glamor shots of their muscles. And the MCU is not the only film franchise like this. Most, if not all, franchises with majority or entirely male leads expects them all to look like bodybuilders. And I'm gonna take back that it's just for the male audience, because these bodies are meant to appeal to women who are intended to thirst for these actors too. They think these bodies is what will bring women to the theaters.

None of this will change, as you say, that women's sexualization is "constant and pervasive". The film industry is just a part of the larger whole of media. Television and advertising have a treatment of women that's beyond whatever you or I say because there are decades worth of shit to go through that would take dozens of essays worth of writing to fully divulge beyond "please stop it's gross".

Now DC is a whole other ballgame. They're pretty infamous for their artists' sexualization of heroines and villainesses. Harley, Ivy, and Selina are definitely pretty bad, but when I remember what I've seen drawn of Kara, Kori, or sometimes Barbara... But outside of one artist, I think Harley and Ivy as a couple have been drawn tamely. Can't say the same for Selina, because they just can't not draw every part of her body even when she's fully clothed.

I think it's hard not to talk about fandom misogyny outside of m/m ships because of how often popular m/m shippers have rooted their shipping into misogyny. And even with m/f ship wars, a lot of the time the "faulted" character is always the woman when majority of the time it's the man who sucks. I don't get why everyone is fighting for who should kiss Steve because Steve sucks and they'd be better off without him. But because Steve is the object of affection for our fave, we have to fight off everyone else.

Don't look at other fandoms for m/f ship wars. We don't appreciate how tame we were, even at our worst. I'm serious, I've seen so much worse.

I think why the topic of misogyny comes up more with m/m ships is because they follow a similar principle of the male characters being more developed in canon and fanon so it's who people gravitate towards.

There is definitely layers of homophobia in fandom, but there's many versions of how we see it. Homophobes who won't ship anything that's not m/f. Homophobes who ship m/m but won't support IRL rights. People who love m/m but abhor f/f, and vice-versa. The shippers who use them for personal fodder. But the sexism is more prevalent than the homophobia. And the racism way more than both combined.

And it does cause a lot of ammo, and much of it severely unjustified, in ship wars. Literally the bullshit I've seen pulled out of thin air to accuse Sharon of not being worthy because someone said she's a racist for [they literally had no reason just called her one because we said Sam and Sharon are friends because they are] and other nonsense.

The real world repercussions of the homophobia, the sexism, and the racism in fandom... there's just so much. Like we are all still people, and yet we decide because we hide behind screens to be antagonistic, and use homophobic, sexist, and racist shit to attack each other over ships just because we want to paint the other person as crazy, I guess? If you can't see that there are no enemies in ship wars and that the other side is still people, maybe you need to sit out and log off. It's baffling how often it still happens to people. Then it's no longer about ships, it's about who is an asshole.

I will say that Steve and Peggy vs Steve and Sharon is probably the only m/f ship war I've seen where misogyny is talked about. Is, not was, because it still is. Both sides call the others misogynistic. I don't think either side is, but you can see in individuals. Those who tweeted at a certain actress that she was a slut for kissing her costar certainly are though.

You are right that shipping m/m isn't inherently sexist. But tearing down women in those ships to prop up m/m has made me stop shipping certain characters altogether. People, seriously, we don't have to justify why we like them! We can just like them! And other characters can still exist! It's never been that deep.

And you're right, the popularity of the ship helps people ignore any deeper issues within them and this is a power used to silence valid criticism if it pops up.

(I hope I answered everything well for you.)

~Mod R

[detectivehole]

Go comic feral, i followed this blog for a rEASOn and it's bc i like to hear your random vents and rants and also you reblog cool stuff. But i digress, go comic feral i am hERE for it

fine

PETER PARKER BEING RICH IS STUPID  he didnt even ern what he has himself it was nt even himn he wasnt in his body maybe if i had got to see him start fron nothing to being a cool ceo or whatever id be able to stand it but nooooooo he just GOT is for nothing so it feels stupid like “ha ha what if like tony stark haha” its DUMB and i haven’t read a spider man comic for a long time

deadpool/spiderman crossover comic bad. feels out of character a lot. funny concept and full of funny jokes but as far as characterization its bad in my opinion- was made to capitalize off the hype of the ship and we all know it

don cates should be banned from writing comics bc he fucking sucks and ill never forgive him for what he did/tried to do to venom

deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good deadpool good dea

the venom movie was a lot of fun but it was very ooc a lot HOWEVER seeing some of the cut scenes and scripts you can see that it used to be actually fairly in character for the comics but a lot of scenes with eddie establishing himself as not actually the most nicest of guys (not that eddie isnt a nice guy deep down but he is a good amount fucked up with a big ol hero complex and a problem with ‘i can do no wrong” mentality sometimes) were cut and considering how the fandom for the movie treats him i can see why the cut those bits out bc i dont think movie goers would have liked him as much wich is a shame bc he is a good guy at the end of the day just fucked up

straight white male comic fans are the worst people in the world and breaking their fingers is a daydream i indulge in 

matt murdock is a himbo

foggy nelson is a good man who deserves better friends

i can tell what deadpool comics someone has read based on how they characterize wade in their fan works and i have a 80% success rate with it. the most common was the daniel way run but now its the spider-man/deadpool crossover series

soulda used miles for the mcu spidey instead of cannibalizing his story for parts like they did. dick move, Disney

mcu bad

i think just the idea of dc’s Red Tool is fucking hilarious but i dont like his character at all

batman and superman should fuck but they wont :/

matt and foggy should to but the comic industry is afraid of making long running characters lgbt bc theyre WEAK

deadpool need a canon bf they cant keep telling us hes pan and not showing us for reals- hell he could just go on one date or be shown having a one night stand or something- something beyond a damn joke

cable gay. no i will not listen to any other opinions.

im excited to read moon knight i have a book waiting i just have to finish my current one

SCUD the disposable assassin is the most underrated comic EVER and i LOVE IT however i think it ended stupid and bad however it went on fucking hiatus for like a decade and then was rapped up really fast so any ending is a godsend

i desperately want a long-form stand alone series abt wanda wilson bc shes the perfect foil for a good Feral Dumbass Woman comic. think abt it; shell sell immediately bc of recognizable brand, and then she can just go on violent stupid adventures without any of the other dp corps. it doenst have to line up with any canon i just want insane lady dp adventure comic. this is an unreasonable dream but mine none the less

i though that agent venom was stupid

tank girl is fucking amazing and i love it i never understand whats going on and i enjoy the confusion

reading early hulk comics feels like watching a weird, poorly produced old black and white sci-fi soap

there needs to be better, more easily accessed, official reading-order guides published and posted on the walls of comic shops everywhere

the 80s and 90s were the best time for marvel comics and no one can tell me otherwise. that was peak comic time

the worst time for comics was the 2000s and early 2010s

sometimes i am shocked by the art that gets the editors pass in comics. some of it is so bad and im not even talking about the disproportionate ladies

the lego marvel and dc movies are way better than the live action movies and im not even being sarcastic

seriously the 2000s made some horrible comics

i feel like committing acts of mass violence every time someone says comics arnt real reading/stories/implies theyre worth less of any value than a novel

i read the first deadpool comic i got so much that the art itself is so ingrained in my mind that people have shown my just the corners of panels and ive identified them correctly

i distinctly remember the first time the woman at the book store stopped asking me for parental permission to buy the comics i was getting (12yos) because i went there so often that she just remembered who i was and that the adult would say its fine

i refuse to talk about comics with people at cons because i am gatekept or flirted with every single time no matter what and there is no in between. and yea its because i have tits. youd think that eventually theyd learn but gross comic men never do and all the others have adopted the same policy as me so the closest i come to positive comic interaction at cons is standing in the same vicinity as another chick, looking at the same section, and the kinda smiling at each other

i think the avengers are boring. really really boring. the x-men are way better

i related to gwenpool too much when she first started and it scared/offended me so i stopped reading for a while until her character developed more and we stooped being so similar

i have spider-man bedding. i picked it out only a few months ago. its good it makes me feel cool in a very uncool way

watching spider-man as a kid made me wanna be a scientist. watching batman as a kid made me want to do martial arts. i ended up failing chemistry and falling on my face a lot instead.

i had a huge venom toy and a huge spiderman toy as a kid and while i did make them fight a lot i also made them hug just as much. i wanted them to be friends

on that note PETER IS MEAN TO THE SYMBIOTE NOW AND HE DONT EVEN HAVE A REASON NO MORE hes just such a dick about criminal reform eddie and the symbiote aint special with this- he says he believes people can be better but he really doesnt show it. he tends to think people are set in their ways and while this makes sense forthe most part considering how much hewas bullied as a kid/adult (that also contributes to his mild “i protect my own” mentality  tho at least he consciously fights that one) it stil pisses me off

i can think way more but i need to sleep i think