#and there's no growth or conflict and Luke loves her instantly and gives her everything she thought she wanted in TFA on a silver platter i

[frumfrumfroo]

The mofos who think Rey could still turn out to be Kylo’s twin sibling and who come up with elaborate behind-the-scenes theories about Lucasfilm are the real TJLC of this fandom. Actually no, we might not have even reached peak TJLC yet—we’ll have to see if one of the SW fan groups start theorizing about a secret fourth movie in the trilogy and claim Lucasfilm will *actually* release Episode 10, the magic movie to fix everything, in its 2022 release slot instead of the other movie it announced.

I wouldn’t even be surprised at this point if they go all the way and say exactly that. They’re almost there.

[roxannepolice]

Long asks anon again, here to offer my opinion on the current wank. Rey as a character is rather blatantly breaking sw story rules and nothing is going to get SFF fans hackles up like rule breakage. This is root of both the MarySue accusations and current wank. Rey has a tragic backstory thats doubling as the only failure she can call her own. But its a) damn near entirely offscreen and b) serves as convenient justification for why shes competent at near everything that comes up.

Reys instantly good at the force because of a convenient force download that to the best of my knowledge only occured in the noncanon KOTOR II and quite frankly cant blame most of the general audience for not getting because without prior knowledge or the novelizations why would they? She has darkness in her but as so far used and touched it consequence free and its almost entirely symbolically externalized on the Kylo (and in SW symbolism is Real in a way it isnt in other narratives) Shes strong in the force because Light rises to meet Dark but to quote the current crop of movies ‘thats not how the force works) or at least thats never how it worked before. Shes the first SW protagonist to go behind enemy lines and come out with both hands in the second movie. For ppl wondering how come Luke and Ani never get labeled MarySues, this is why, they got thier asses handed to them, Rey hasnt. There /is/ something /off/ in Reys story, and ppl pick up on it. if you can make a post (w/ over 1k notes!) about how great it is that a character meant to prop up 7hrs worth of movies has little to no character development to go through, somethings off. If multiple ppl can make posts about how its neat Rey can tap into the darkside (still characterized as evil in ST) consequence free (with some quite frankly stupid justifications, 'shes disciplined’ really? jedi lacked a lot of things thats not one of them) somethings off and again, if the only failure your main heroine has is /entirely retroactive something’s off/. If the story were getting with the is the story most ppl think we are, a 'female empowerment’ (i dont feel particularly empowered by being told I have an equal chance at being a deus ex machina but ok) than well, her story is over and theres no need for IX (hell it could have been over in TFA, most ppl assumed she had accepted her place as the future jedi in that one) and no need for reylo The ST was always gonna deconstruct all that came before it purely by virtue of being a sequel. The tragedy of anakin skywalker is now a farce, the happy ot ending now a tragedy, and the mythopoetic structure shot to shit in the name of serialization and perpetual warfare. this stand true for all the sequel characters including rey and ben. the only question is are we going to get anything out of it? I compare it to home renovation. You can knock out a wall and the walls gone, but new opportunities arise. With Benlo, I’m reasonably confident that there will be at least some attempt to take advantage of the new space. With rey and the resistance kids? not so much. it just feels like they knocked down a blue wall to rebuild it as pink one and at the point it just feels like a waste of time because ive seen this before. Ive seen pure cinnamon roll desert orphan reform jedi order If this was all youre going to do that the fuck was the point? which circles around to my problem with team good guy this go around and That Scene. JJ twisted the story into a pretzel to justify the winners of the last round being the underdogs again and then rian twisted so much further the storys head may as well be up its own ass. And then at the very end he shoots it all to shit and rushes to reassure us its all gonna be okay. He removes the entire point of the underdog trope /the tension that comes from the fact that they might lose/. I mean there wasnt a whole lot of that to begin with already but really? So theres no tension that Reys gonna win so her journey feels frictionless, and theres no question where shes gonna end up so full offense why give a shit? Thats where the whole 'can rey lose a fight?’ thing comes from. Ppl want conflict in her arc to justify its existence and give us a reason why this her story to begin with. if the only character going through growth for all three movies is ben, if the only characters whos fate is up in the air is ben, and if all the tension in the reylo relationship comes from ben, then why is this /reys story/? why not just make it about the character actually driving all the drama and thus, the story?   As a final thought, im going to add that having Kylo be aware and insecure that hes never gonna be as Iconic as Vader was a great story choice, regardless of where ends up. Current Rebels, on the other hand, seems to have not gotten the memo that they are never gonna be as iconic as Original Rebels, and the story itself seems to being trying to sell them to me as being better. Rey is Luke but better, Poe/Finn are Han wo the smuggler grit, and id be lying if i said it didnt piss me off.

&

Long asks anon to kick down ur door again, AND ANOTHER THING. SW is a lotta things. Subtle aint one of them, and St hasnt changed in that regard. If you have to debate it chances are either a) ur arguing counter to the text in which case mor power to you but not really helpful for predictions or intended meaning or b) /it aint there. A bunch of ppl didnt like anidala, but nobody doubted we were supposed to think they were in love by the end of AOTC, bunch of ppl didnt like poes arc, but no one doubts he fucked up by not listening to holdo was the intended take away. Which brings to rey and flaws or lack there of. Were told rey has flaws but she has yet to suffer any real consequences from them with the exception of The Damn Parentage Wank, which again, pulls the double duty of making her hyper competent at everything. Because rey has no consequences for her flaws, from a story function pov there aren’t any. If rey did have a flaw to overcome, we would all agree what it was

Now won’t you all just look at this beautiful, spot on rant which has been lagging in my askbox since the last time Rey’s flaws or lack thereof were the discourse’s focus (November, I believe?) and suddenly became a thing again, courtesy of Tweetgate. I think you really summed up the crux of this debate wonderfully, anon.

I particularly agree with the part about Rey not getting narratively punished for whatever flaws we’d like her to have (great point about returning from behind the enemy lines with both arms still in place), when SW don’t stay away from allowing characters to get “punished” even for otherwise applaudable features - vide Padmé, whose idealism is what Palps manipulates into gaining more power (this is why Padmé will never come off as a Mary Sue or too perfect, btw). But I’ll say even more - Rey doesn’t even get called out on her flaws, except for by Ben, who’s mostly dismissed as a baddie like Palpatine saying Luke was foolish to rely on his friends. Let’s just consider one thing - both Anakin and Luke get called out on their flaws by Yoda (Anakin repeatedly and by lots of other people for that matter) whereas with Rey, the same grumpy-yet-jolly senex pops up from the afterlife to further inform us what a great jedi material she is.

TBH, I have a very cynical theory as to why Rey is being pushed as the main character while it’s difficult to deny that it’s Kylo Ben who does all the plot heavy lifting. I’m pretty sure Ben’s arc was the first one DLF thought out (and the big question is, was it the only one they thought out) and only later on decided to make Rey the main character, which also involved much less spontaneous writing. Mind you, it’s not as if benepemption didn’t have a manufactured subtaste to it, but with Rey’s heroine’s journey stiff structure occasionally substitutes any in-world explanations of her actions (this is why I have to hope renperor has some narrative purpose rather than happening because lovers need to be separated and anti-hero needs to achieve what he wanted in 2nd act). I feel as if whatever potential her character had (and hopefully still has, pending IX) got smothered by layer upon layer of making her likable by everyone, which largely relied on negative characterization: she’s not helpless, she’s not too naive, not cynical, not too emotional, not too emotionless, not morally corruptible, not anything you’ve ever complained about regarding any SW character, not falling for the bad boy, not not not - and in the end it’s kinda difficult to say what Rey is like and while the goal of making her widely likable was achieved, it also made it almost impossible to view her as loveably flawed/annoying like the classic characters. And on top of all this is the matter of making her a nobody just like you!, as DLF appears to say with uncle Sam’s gesture (which also kinda assumes the existence of a Star Wars fan as some uniform entity? because if you identify with her, good for you, I just don’t understand why the franchise assumes I’ll identify with her by the grace of being a SW fan alone), because, as you excellently put it, the message here is that everyone can be chosen by God - which again, it’s not as if the saga ever contradicted this, so why the hell make a case of it? I can’t agree that it’s made into Rey’s flaw, though, imo her low birth only serves to further frame her as an oppressed virtue. And I definitely agree regarding too much of her growth being left off-screen, or before the story ever begins. The problem here isn’t even that it is left off-screen (it’s not as if we had huge insight into any of the pt or ot characters) but rather that her characterizations is left off-screen while being depicted as at least untypical (unique to put it bluntly) for her situation (same goes for Finn). A hopeful, kind person growing up on her on her own in slavery under a nicer name is a rarity and DLF makes a case for it being a rarity - and this sparks up curiosity in her past, as if market pandering to Re/sky wasn’t enough. So from this pov her un-reveal being frustrating isn’t just a case of not wanting to love her or her self only a potentially deeper psychological question getting answered with well, light.

I should add, Ben’s arc feels like the most spontaneous one (though Finn’s may yet be a masterpiece) and he’s the one to admit his fear of not living up to Vader’s legacy, because I think he’s the character serving as the creators’ vessel, more or less like Luke was Lucas’ avatar in ot. In his fear regarding Vader’s legacy one can feel Disney’s fear due to having bought popculture’s holy grail and not being entirely sure what to do with it. On this background, Rey (a literal scavenger of OT’s pieces) and rebels 2.0 repeatedly blessed by Leia come off as what DLF would want to be. And the result is that the character which was supposed to be Vader 2.0 proves the most original and surprising one, whereas “breaths of fresh air” come off as room aromatizers with “fresh” written on them.

And as far as the plot being bended into a pretzel and then disappearing up it’s own ass, well, a part of me is still hoping that taking virtually the same villains as before is a mythological-psychoanalitical metaphor of a nigredo repeating itself until the unconscious gets accepted by the conscious…. but, tbh, as the leaks flow this hope is withering.

[tjkiahgb]

Alright, let’s talk about that TJ scene in the last episode

I’ve tried to figure out the Buffy/TJ scene from “A Walker to Remember” numerous times now. I’ve flipped and flopped on what truly happened, what’s a lie, and what the character motivations are.

The only thing I’ve truly settled on is this: it’s not working for me. I think the problem is that the show maybe tried to have its cake and eat it, too.

Let’s look at this from a writing standpoint. What are the goals for the scene? What pertinent information are we’re supposed to get from it?

There’s a lot.

TJ is back on the team after telling the math teacher (Coleman) about his dyscalculia

Coleman knows Buffy did TJ’s homework and she might be punished for it

Buffy figures out TJ has used “You’re right” to trick her in the past and likely got the information from Cyrus

TJ is trying to change for the better

First problem: almost all the information we get from this scene comes from TJ himself. And about halfway through the scene, Buffy claims that everything he’s said is a lie, which he sort of admits to. I say sort of because he doesn’t say what’s a lie or come clean about some plan. He just says, “Old habits die hard,” which is... vague. For our purposes at least.

Back to the list of information. We can mostly leave #1 aside. Let’s assume it’s true. It’s fairly straightforward. Even when Buffy accuses TJ of lying about everything, I don’t think she means this. He wants back on the team, this is his way back.

Let’s also leave aside #3 -- that information mostly comes from Buffy’s detective work -- and hone in on #2.

What’s likely true here: Coleman knows Buffy did TJ’s homework. I don’t think there’s any grand bluff there. TJ told Coleman that.

Did TJ volunteer that information or did Coleman figure that out on his own? It’s not a wild leap to guess that after Coleman learned about TJ’s disability, his next question would be about how he then aced his homework assignment. It’s possible TJ could’ve thrown that info out there unprompted, but that’s a risk on his part, no? There’s no way of knowing that Coleman wouldn’t also punish him for going along with a plan to cheat instead of coming to him in the first place.

I guess it really depends on how much malice you want to attribute to TJ here, and that’s probably affected by whatever your thoughts were about TJ coming into the episode.

What we also need to figure out is whether or not TJ told Coleman that he asked Buffy to do his homework.

Here’s where I start to have some real trouble with the scene, because I think I’ve finally settled on the answer being no, he didn’t. I think this is the lie Buffy is calling TJ out on. I think we’re supposed to get from all this that TJ told Coleman that Buffy did his homework on her own, in one last attempt to get her off the team.

And it’s real tough to work out the logic behind how that plan would work or why TJ would even attempt it in the first place.

First, like the idea of him throwing this information out there unprompted, why would TJ assume he wouldn’t also be punished (or that Buffy would be over-punished) for this whole homework cheating thing? At the very least, he went along with it for this long. There’s culpability there. He’d have to assume Coleman would think something like, “Well, he’s got a learning disability and didn’t know what else to do while Buffy should’ve known better.” I mean, I guess that’s what Coleman did, but that’s such a weird sense of justice for a teacher to have. Incredibly lucky on TJ’s part.

But once you dig into the actual story he would have to tell Coleman to get to this place, it really falls apart.

First off, it just weird – Buffy, against my wishes, just did all my math homework. For fun?

You could argue, I guess, that she might do it just to say she tutored him and fixed him, but that would blow up in her face the next homework assignment or test, and every subsequent one after that. She’s smart enough to know that. And Coleman should know that she’s smart enough to know that.

And really, how would that benefit Buffy anyway? Why would she even bother trying to pull the wool over Coleman’s eyes when she could just say TJ’s untutorable and leave like every other tutor he’s had. No harm, no foul. It’s not like she’s got some big cash prize waiting at the end of this or anything.

Furthermore, this entire plan is predicated on Buffy never explaining her side. She could very easily tell Coleman that TJ asked her to do it and she could point to any of these aforementioned logical gaps as to why she wouldn’t have just done his homework on a whim. It gets into a he-said, she-said situation, but it’s not like TJ’s reputation is sterling, while Buffy’s one of the best students in school.

And this whole thing, by the way, doesn’t even gain TJ that much: Buffy’s gone in a few days anyway. He gets his team back. If it all falls apart -- if at any step along the way Coleman stops and says, “Wait a second, this doesn’t make any sense.” -- then TJ would be in even more trouble with the basketball team than he’s already been in. You can’t explain away lying to throw your tutor under the bus with a learning disability.

The whole plan is both brazen and pointless.

So, why bother with this bit of storytelling? Well, it creates immediate drama, obviously. It leads to a big blow to our hero Buffy’s hopes and creates a deep conflict with Cyrus that needs to be dealt with.

Ok. So TJ’s a bad guy then. He wants nothing more than to beat Buffy and be the top dog.

I mean, look, if that’s the case, fine. The logic of the plan still bugs me, but the storytelling works for the most part.

But here’s where I say that the show is trying to have its cake and eat it.

I don’t actually believe it’s the case that TJ is meant to be some moustache-twirling villain here. I’m pretty sure the show truly wants us to believe point #4: that TJ is trying to change for the better.

Why? Because of how he acts throughout the scene. You have to remember: TJ’s behavior in this scene is a conscious choice by the director and the producers. The actor, Luke, didn’t just try to play TJ as sincere for most of this scene on a whim. If he was making character choices that the people behind the scenes weren’t gelling with, it would’ve never made it to air.

So let’s look at how TJ behaves throughout this scene.

He stops Buffy outside the gym and approaches real easy, even mentioning that he’s coming in peace. They have the whole exchange about telling Coleman about the learning disability, and Buffy needing to talk to Coleman. TJ talks about how he’s changed, and how he’s an open book, and even says some nice things about hoping Buffy doesn’t get kicked off the team and about how he heard she had a good game.

Then he heads for the gym and Buffy stops him by saying everything he’s said is a lie.

And here’s where the whole thing throws me for a loop.

If this whole scene had happened the same way up until this point, and Buffy called him out, and TJ turned around with an evil grin and said, “You’re right.” and then something like, “Boom baby, you just got Kippen’d!” and ran off into the gym, I’d have gotten it.

Oh, ok. Moustache-twirling villain. Playing evil chess and scheming. Got it.

It’s not like we haven’t seen that before. It would be very similar to the scene on the basketball court in “We Were Never.” Let’s remember that scene real quick.

Buffy calls timeout because TJ won’t pass her the ball. They bicker about passing for a second. TJ says he’ll do it next time and Buffy calls him out for lying. She says, “You just say what you need to say to get what you want, but you don’t mean any of it.”

And TJ says, “You’re right,” in a super smug way, and drops this look on her.

Which is just a cold, cold stare. Basically: Yeah, you caught me. I lied, I don’t care, I’m in charge, what are you going to do about it, etc. etc. (Or in other words, “You got Kippen’d.”)

Again, if this is how TJ turned around after Buffy called him out for lying in “A Walker to Remember,” I’d instantly understand where we’re at with him.

But he doesn’t. Let’s look at the body language.

It’s shame.

Regret.

Admission.

Let’s listen to the way he says “Old habits die hard,” and the seemingly genuine tone he uses when he says that he’s really trying.

I mean, think about him saying that now. He contends that he’s really trying after Buffy’s busted him for lying. Why would he do that? If that’s untrue, what incentive does he have for trying to convince Buffy of it? Unless... Unless he’s telling the truth.

And then he tells her she’s right. And for a second, you maybe think he is making fun of her. She even calls him out on it.

And once again, he could drop everything and reveal himself as a villain here (You got Kippen’d and all that) but he doesn’t.

He seems actually surprised that she’s mad. Like, he was either trying to lighten the mood with a joke or he was honestly trying to make her feel better by saying the words he knows she loves hearing, but he wasn’t doubling down on evil. (I mean, let’s be honest here, it’s not the most natural thing to say either way, and the only reason he really said it was to advance the Buffy/Cyrus storyline by giving Buffy a clue to sniff out. But, you know, I’m analyzing it as a line of dialogue and not a plot-pushing device.)

And then, after all that, when Buffy’s figured it out and TJ realizes he’s given up Cyrus.

And that he’s gotten him in a lot of trouble with Buffy.

That is not the same TJ from earlier in this season.

This is someone who actually cares about a person other than himself.

That’s my issue with the scene. It presents us two wildly different things. What we saw from TJ in the episode was character growth. Especially in the scene with Cyrus earlier, but in this one, too, if we believe him to be sincere for at least a chunk of it.

And yet, he makes a sneaky, irrational move to try and oust Buffy from the team? And the only explanation we get is “Old habits die hard.” Like, as much as he was trying to be a hashtag good boi, a little devil inside of him jumped up and made him blame Buffy for the homework thing? I couldn’t help myself, I just had to frame you! It’s really very disjunctive.

(Here’s a quick alternate explanation for everything that, in my opinion, makes more sense and is more consistent with the character arcs, but doesn’t actually seem to me to be where they’re heading with this.

Assume TJ was honest about being an open book with Coleman. Say he laid all his cards out on the table: I have a disability, I asked Buffy to do my homework. Coleman, because of his still warped sense of justice, chooses to punish Buffy anyway. This sort of leads us to the same point, but TJ’s actions are less malicious and more in line with his recent character growth. He doesn’t make some risky, near pointless attempt to ruin Buffy. It just kind of happened through carelessness.

When Buffy says he’s lying, it’s possible she’s referring to the last things he said to her before that line: that he hopes she doesn’t get kicked off the team and that he heard she had a great game against the Raptors - implied there that he’s happy she had a good game, even without him.

Then TJ’s line about old habits dying hard, coupled with the line about really trying is saying, “Yeah, I honestly would still rather you not be on the team. I’m not happy you’re a good team leader. Though I am trying to be better about that.”

This whole way of viewing the interaction requires more nuance and explanation though, and I don’t know if we’ll get that. It’s easier to just accept TJ=bad for now until he shows up next time and they inch him closer toward redemption.)

Last thing.

I think this scene has been a big source of the conflict this week in the fandom. (Well, some of the conflict. We got conflict for days out here.)

But I think this scene is a problem in that sense because its vagueness has served as a sort of Rorschach test for anyone who has thoughts about TJ one way or the other.

If you came into this scene hating TJ, it’s likely you mostly just took from it the TJ=bad parts. He’s a snake. He’s out to get Buffy again. He’s a villain. (It’s honestly not an unfair reading of it, especially if want to believe it was a targeted attack and you also want to believe everything he said about growth was part of the lie.)

And if you came into this scene rooting for TJ, you see the person trying to make a change and the Buffy stuff leads more to disappointment than rage, like someone you know can do better, but keeps sabotaging themselves. (Again, assuming it’s based in rancor and not carelessness. You might also be more willing to believe the alternate explanation of what happened.)

Anyway. I don’t know how to wrap this up. I’m exhausted. I’ve been writing and thinking about this for too long now. Still, if you want to hit up the comments and discuss it more, that’s cool. I’ll jump back in. In the meantime, though, I’m going to go have myself a little lie down.

[kallypsowrites]

I need to talk about people comparing Zutara to Kylo ren and Rey because...nah.

I think the whole ‘defense of Kylo’ gets under my skin a lot because he has not done anything to deserve redemption. Not even in this movie. If anything, when I watched this movie, I was more convinced than ever that he is a pathetic child who has not earned any sort of redemption arc. I see where the comparisons to ‘Crossroads of Destiny’ come from, but I gotta break these down.

Zuko has a moment of possible redemption with Katara in which he seems to turn to the light side. But it is not just with Katara. He goes through his own personal growth and they happen to connect at a point in time. Then, when Zuko reaches his crossroads, he falters. But there were a lot of conflicting factors. The love he’s always wanted from his father. Wanting to return home. His sister pressuring him to make a split second decision. The concept of family and honor over what seems right. He makes the wrong decision and pretty clearly instantly regrets it. In this way, Zuko remains sympathetic. He is not and never was, all through out the show, evil.

ON THE OTHER HAND, we have Kylo. Kylo who murdered his father in order to become powerful. Kylo who has constantly killed anyone who gets in his way. Kylo who idolizes Darth Vader despite the fact that Darth Vader ultimately turned to good. You want to know the difference in his crossroads scene? He kills Snoke. He gets rid of the tempting force. He makes the “right choice”. But for all of the wrong reasons.

He doesn’t kill Snoke to turn to Rei’s side. He does it because he wants to take Rei on as his apprentice. He DOES NOT see her as an equal. He wants her as a student. Someone he can mold and control. I cannot emphasize enough how telling this is. This isn’t Zuko being pressured into the wrong decision. This is Kylo with his main antagonist defeated standing alone in a room with way and choosing to stay evil. He was not pressured or pushed or anything. He made that choice all alone. To become a sith. To gain control over Rei as opposed to meeting her as an equal.

This movie is Kylo’s ultimate turn to evil. He attacks the rebel base with the order of giving ‘no quarter’, which will essentially sacrifice his mother who he hesitated to kill earlier in the film. He isn’t hesitating anymore. He has gone dark and Luke sees that. Rei sees that. Luke declares for all to hear that he is not here to save Kylo anymore. And Rei closes a door on him.

And that is NOT a bad thing. I’m happy about this movie. It was all about subverting expectations. We see the jedi as legendary but Luke says they suck. We think Yoda will protect the old ways and he lights them on fire. We think Snoke will be important but he dies. We think Rei comes from important parentage but ultimately she comes from nowhere. And, most importantly, we think Kylo is going to get a redemption arc, but ultimately he is too far gone to save.

In the end, Kylo is, as Snoke said, a child. He is a raging boy who wants to control what he cares for. And yes, I do think he cares for Rei but in a dark way. In an unhealthy way. Rei deserves much, much better than him, even if they share a so called connection.

People like Zutara because Zuko and Katara see each other as equals. Zuko isn’t trying to control her. And Zuko never does what Kylo does. Ever. He doesn’t seek power, just honor and redemption. Kylo is a twisted dark heart and sometimes people do. not. change. Everything about this movie seems to hammer this in, but people seem to think it means that he is ultiamtely good? That like, Rei’s love for him will save him? Nah. Rei deserves so, so much more.

I loved this movie. I loved how it ultimately teased at a Kylo Ren redemption and then revealed him for what he really is. I love that Rei stepped away from him at the end. I don’t have a problem with people intereste din Rei and Kylo’s dynamic as long as they are aware that it is unhealthy. Kylo is not a misunderstood soul who just needs love. He is a villain now. He reached his crossroads and he made the wrong choice even though he had the absolute freedom to follow Rei.

He chose dark. And Rei closed the door on him.