#and sure there can be nuance with like “oh the cogs are treated horribly by the company too�� yeah thats sympathy i get that but that also

[indigo6f00ff]

toontown drama on the timeline. What

[softlyblues]

hi I read your answer about moist! I agree. :) I was wondering based on what you said if you ship vetvimes or not?

fhi, thanks very much! 

i think vetvimes have a rly interesting and nuanced dynamic. i’m all in for the memes, of course i am, but i don’t really ship it so much as i think vetinari/vimes/sybil have a rly interesting, basically canonical relationship, involving if not vimes w/ both of them, then all three of them with each other. i rly hope u dont mind bc im about to go off on one lmao. 

i recently reread guards guards and what got me (and i know from a doylist pov it’s because pterry hadnt finalised the universe yet) was the inequality in vetvimes dynamic. vetinari pities vimes and holds him at arms length, and vimes is a very stupid but very earnest drunkard. he’s a pitiable figure when he asks for a small raise and a dartboard, and vetinari doesn’t take him seriously. 

through men at arms/feet of clay/jingo we see the dynamic we know and love growing. it’s been a while since i’ve read them all, but im gonna get up some scenes that i think are super important to vet/vimes/sybil... and yes this includes the gonne scene. (:D)

so here is the scene right after vetinari is shot. here is really, imo, the first time vimes stops seeing vetinari as one of his Betters - vimes is in his element, calm even, and vetinari asks him what to do. vetinari speaks slowly, almost stuttering, and i read a lot of fear into that line “i appear... to be losing a lot of blood.”

and then vimes outright accuses vetinari of not doing the right thing. can you IMAGINE guards guards vimes doing something like that? vimes holds vetinari to account, and vetinari allows him. i also think it’s significant that this all happens at vimes & sybil’s wedding; we know sybil and vetinari are friends, old friends, and the wedding continues on despite the attack. vimes has time to save sybil AND vetinari, without sacrificing one for the other. that’s really the central point of men at arms: vimes doesn’t have to retire to have time for his wife and for the watch. he can multitask without losing either. 

feet of clay is another important leveler book for vetinari and vimes. for most of the book, vetinari is slowly dying, trusting basically nobody but drumknott and vimes to come into his room - he does know what’s going on, yes, but he trusts vimes to not need his help to work the thing out. vetinari does stay ahead, and he does have the advantage, but he doesn’t feel the need to help vimes; he respects him, and treats him as though he’s on the same level as him. this is really important for vimes’ perception of himself going from drunkard to someone who has people relying on him, and as someone who can be trusted. in order for vetinari and vimes to have any relationship, they need to not only be on a level, but they both need to know they are as well. i think vetinari has no problem knowing this, but sam is very unreliable when it comes to an account of his own intelligence, bravery, and merit. i mean. he remains, right up until the end of snuff, convinced that he is a Bad Person who has Snuck Into Someone Else’s Happy Life and is waiting for the other shoe, yknow, so men at arms/feet of clay are important books for hauling vimes up onto vetinari’s platform so they both know they’re equals. 

sybil is HUGELY important in this, and part of the reason i dislike traditional vetvimes is bc they just... idk, kill her off of make her horrible or just disregard her existence. sybil is the catalyst for literally all of sam’s development. without her he’s an alcoholic in the gutter. with her, he’s duke, commander, sir samuel, the man vetinari trusts the most. (dont disregard sybil, vetvimes ppl.)

in jingo, i think we start to see the vetvimessybil dynamic we’re more familiar with. vetinari trusts sam to play along with him, and he goes to klatch and does the whole sexy juggler thing and he allows sam to arrest two countries. he lets the lords of ankh-morpork raise armies, because he trusts sam. sybil trusts sam. vetinari trusts sam. vimes trusts both of them implicitly, even if he doesn’t think or say so. 

fifth elephant might seem not that important, but it’s really big to note that at the beginning, vetinari and sybil appear to be conspiring to give sam a holiday. also, sybil calls vetinari havelock, and the only other person i can remember who calls him that is lady margolotta, his ‘love interest’. vimes turns to sybil as his last chance against vetinari, only to find that they’ve been in cahoots because they’re both concerned about his health (and about sybil) and doesn’t that sound terribly domestic!

then we come to night watch, and i know it isn’t a new opinion, that this is one of the big pivotal books for he whole series, but more than that it’s pivotal for the balance between vetinari, vimes, and sybil. the cigar case is the only thing stopping sam from going off the deep end - with love from your sybil, just to press the point - and it all happens in between the birth of young sam. vimes is motivated by love for his city of course, but he has a family now, and he drinks Loving His Wife Juice through history. vimes has already been through his character development; night watch is vetinari’s turn.

finally vimes is the wiser, superior, older mentor figure to vetinari’s bullied, presumably 25-or-younger self. he is already mature, with a tendency towards the dramatic, but i think it’s not really a reach to say night watch was vetinari’s gay awakening. and OH MY GOD the ending scene beside keel’s grave is etched into my memory. i’ll attach it even though i’m sure we don’t need it:

like, woah. what a change in dynamic. now vetinari is bowing to the whims of a vimes he can’t predict, and now vimes is the one telling vetinari off. this is his area of expertise. “afterwards we could-” vetinari has become accustomed to a world where he and sam do things together; it would be fair to say (and supported by the young assassin at the start of this book) that vimes is now firmly integral to the cogs of ankh-morpork. vetinari not only relies on him, but trusts him to be at his side without having to ask. vetinari respects him at this time, in this place, because he has finally seen the lengths to which vimes will go to protect his city, a dedication to a-m that only vetinari has ever expressed. 

from there i think vetinari/vimes/sybil continue without much change. in thud, snuff, and raising steam they have settled into a comfortable give and take. i think that sybil ABSOLUTELY CANNOT be removed from the equation, because she cares for both vimes & vetinari - she is a formidable force when put into action (hello, army of letter-writers from snuff!) and we know she has the power to bully both men into taking care of themselves. imo she is the driving force behind any romantic action between any of the three of them, including herself & sam; remember how they got together in guards guards? she just sat him down with a cup of tea and talked and he realised that he’d somehow gathered a fiancee without realising it. sybil ramkin is DEFINITELY the unstoppable force to both mens’ immovable objects. 

i think it’s perfectly expressed in thud. vimes can both read a story to his son, be a good husband to his wife, be a good commander to his patrician, and be a good watchman to his city, without ever having to sacrifice anything - because of the machinations of his wife and his patrician. (and his city and his son. i mean, that scene with the traffic and the high-speed bedtime story chase says it all.) 

so those are my Many Many Thoughts about vetvimes, i hope that... wasnt too much over what you were asking me for lmao