#and like i say even the early seasons probably wouldn't have delivered on quite such a thing

[primatechnosynthpop]

There are a few later-seasons trgb eps I wish had been made when the show was still good, but "spacebusters" has gotta be one of my top picks. I know there already was a space-themed episode in season two but I honestly think this one has a more compelling plot and it could have fucked so hard if a) the animation was done in the first few seasons' style so it could have a more legit creepy atmosphere; b) the writing was a little more competent in places; and c) we didn't have to have slimer around constantly killing the tension with his interjections. That said, I don't think even the better era of the show would have given me what I really want, which is to spend more time on the fucked up survival horror scenario winston was in for however long it was before the others got there

[thebreakfastgenie]

I have a bit of a take. I don’t love the way Donna’s season 6 story line was executed , but I actually DO love that she essentially became Josh’s equal. I think that was really important to their future relationship.

I think it makes their relationship work a lot better on a couple of levels. I think it makes it a lot more comfortable for the audience. But also in-universe I think that's a necessary step in their growth. In some ways I think they think of each other as equals for a long time, but in season 6 the reality that they're not starts to rear its head and cause problems. Josh trusts Donna to do a lot of things an assistant wouldn't normally do and it's enough for her for a long time but it finally isn't anymore.

It's absolutely the execution I don't like. There's a really solid story underneath which is what makes it so frustrating to me. I would not personally go the angle of Donna resenting Josh and blaming him for holding her back, at least without more set up, but I think it makes a lot of sense, if it's framed as something Donna feels and not an objective reality. I think the execution is tinged with well-intention but ultimately unsuccessful early 2000s girlpower that says Donna is too good to be an assistant. The implications about the work assistants do and the value of the other longtime assistant characters like Carol, Bonnie, and Ginger, are... not great. But you do have in Donna this woman who's never really considered her own full potential. She let herself be subsumed by Dr. Freeride and then when she left him she went to the Bartlet campaign to find herself and ended up staying with Josh for seven years (or thereabouts, the timeline gets confusing in places). It's like Carly Simon said "I'll never learn to be just me first, by myself." And the uncomfortable truth is that Donna has the life and opportunities she has because of Josh, because he took a chance on her when any reasonable person in his position probably wouldn't have. Donna needs to leave Josh, I think, to prove that she can stand on her and exist without him, so that they can choose a life together as equal partners. But I don't think Josh not seeing that in season 6 is wrong or because he's sexist (he's a little sexist but not in this) or treating Donna unfairly. They've just reached a point where the status quo they've had no longer works and Josh is struggling to accept that. I hate that Donna quits the way she does because it's super unprofessional and undercuts the point that she's grown a lot and she's ready to do something else.

I've outlined this before but my personal dream season 6 arc for Donna would be Donna deciding to finish her college degree by taking some classes for something to do while she's recovering after Gaza. Josh is super encouraging throughout the process and even plans a graduation celebration for her when she finishes. But when she starts applying for jobs and asks him for a recommendation then he freaks out and the ensuing fight leaves them not really talking for a while, they still end up on rival campaigns, etc. It ties in nicely with Donna going to Will for a job, because it's a good way around her direct supervisor for the last seven years in her only relevant experience not acting as a reference. I also think it would be a fun way to give Charlie more to do, because he did college while working for the president, so he could act as kind of a mentor to Donna.

But even if they didn't do that, I think focusing more on the great and tragic irony--that Josh was the first person to believe in Donna and now he can't accept that it's time for her to move on--would deliver a much stronger arc. There's also a lot about how quickly Donna rises through the ranks on the Russell campaign and how she appears even higher-ranked than her stated job because she's the one we see with Will all the time that bugs me but that's kind of understandable from a "we are making a television show and she is one of the main characters" perspective.

[sanctuaryforalluniverses]

I keep seeing takes about how the Roy/Keeley reunion was too sudden, or too manipulative, and how Roy hasn't been working on himself at all. Since you guys clearly haven't been watching the same show I have all season, let me do a quick run through:

3x2 - Roy's WHOLE SPEECH about leaving Chelsea early because he could see the end coming and didn't want to drag everyone down and become an embarrassment was such an obvious metaphor for his relationship with Keeley that Trent points it out to us IN THE EPISODE. His wistful (for Roy at least) thought that maybe he should have just stayed and enjoyed it while he could is equally painfully obvious regret that is even MORE obviously for Keeley ends with "but that's not the kind of man I am." (Not a direct quote, but an accurate paraphrase). As the season continues, we will see that that isn't a line of arrogance. It's a line that highlights the fact that Roy's self esteem is complete shit.

(Before you argue with me, let's go back to his confrontation with Trent earlier in the episode. Would someone with GOOD self-esteem carry a negative review about himself in his wallet for DECADES? Not as some kind of motivation, but as something that genuinely upsets him to this day? Can you picture Sam doing this? Or Dani? Or even Isaac? I absolutely CAN picture Jamie doing this, but frankly that only confirms the picture of a cocky man whose self esteem is secretly garbage.)

Speaking of Jamie. The show has paralleled the two men the ENTIRE TIME, and it's quite possible to say that Roy's growing acceptance of Jamie goes hand-in-hand with a growing acceptance for his inner self. His agreeing to train Jamie in the face of Zava's Zava-ness is a recognition of Jamie's value (and maybe in some distant way his own), and even though he's very brusque about it that's also how Roy's been treating himself all season.

Then we get to 3x6 and Roy's insight about how never learning to ride a bike was probably an insult to his grandfather's memory. Rephrased, it hits Roy that a time he shut down because of strong emotions (in order to protect himself from those emotions) would have hurt a person he loved very much. (This will be important later.)

(Also in this episode -- Rebecca's comment to Roy about "someone who feels they're worthy of her." Rebecca has read him like a book this WHOLE TIME. Their friendship is such an underrated treasure.)

Then we get to 3x9, and Roy's talk with Isaac about how he isn't really angry about this, and how he needs to fix it before it screws up something he DOES care about. Roy's speaking from personal experience here, and what's the big thing Roy has screwed up this season?

Also in that episode, Rebecca yelling at Roy about the press conference. She tells him to pull his head out of his ass, and once again talks about Roy not feeling like he's worth anything and how he needs to accept the fact that he deserves good things. He then proceeds to deliver such a fucking beautiful press conference that it brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it. One he was apparently capable of this whole time. He was just so focused on escape before that he'd never let himself.

And in 3x10. To clarify -- neither the letter or the realization was about getting Keeley back. He said he was a mess, and the nice teacher lady said she hoped the mess didn't cause any damage. In that moment, in part because of everything that had come before, he realized that him trying to keep his mess away from Keeley might have caused her damage instead.

(Should he have figured that out well before now? Of course he should have. But when your self-esteem is garbage you don't see depriving someone of your presence as damaging them. In fact, you might even think of it as making their life easier.)

The letter was apologizing for THAT. And he was planning on just leaving it under her door, since a genuine apology demands no response. In fact, he probably kind of hoped he WOULDN'T be there when she read it, but his terrible handwriting made it impossible. And when he's done yes, he does stay a bit, because who WOULDN'T hope that Keeley Jones would suddenly fall into their arms. But when she doesn't, he goes. And if Keeley hadn't called him back, he would have kept going.

You just have to LOOK.

[bcbdrums]

I’ve actually seen many people talk about this even before i joined the fandom and recently the creators have confirmed that Shego age was between late twenties to early thirties. Even the show points out to this being the case.

And we have the live action movie which casted an age appropriate Kim and Shego and without the stylistic animation, the age difference becomes very jarring to see.

Is just that if there’s such a big age gap between Kim and Shego and has always been, then why would the writers deliberately hype the ship and play up aspects of it? I don’t know about you, but that sounds super weird.

I remember there was someone who had worked in the show (they had a sample of the last episode graduation) an d they had went on record to say that as far as they were concerned there was no delivered intent to make Kigo a thing and that the writes were seemingly against it.

But again it kinda contradicts what we saw in episode like “stop team go”.

I’m not sure, but all of this is weird.

And yeah I don’t like using words as pedo, but it’s been confirmed that Shego is at least 10 years older than Kim, which makes everything about this and the ship itself super uncomfortable to me

I should redo this and make it more organized, but here's my analysis of a canon-realistic age for Shego. This is the logic my headcanon is based on: Essay: how old is Shego? And yes, I think she starts the series in her late twenties.

I LOVE that the live-action showed a realistic age difference! I think they nailed it, and your description of "jarring" is pretty accurate when one starts to think in shipping terms. But for those of us who have always seen them as the adult and child they are, it's not really any surprise. I wish the live-action had more traction JUST for that reason. (Not to mention...Drakgo were awesome in it!)

@a113cowgirl I'm fairly certain has scans of the original script to Graduation which includes unused material, which definitely pushed Drakgo more as a couple. Now what I've heard unfortunately is that the Drakgo ending was just fanservice and not the writers' intent. What we DO know about the writers' intent, is that Kim/Ron was always endgame. It's been documented many times, and it's extremely clearly built up to in season 3, with So the Drama the always planned ending. It's season 4 that was the weird wild card.

I'll be more clear... During season 4, I don't think the writers were attempting to push the Kigo ship. I think that it was probably just recognized that hot girl on hot girl stuff...sells. The fight at the spa in Mad Dogs and Aliens... Literal mud wrestling with Shego in a bathing suit... That was wholly unnecessary. It's not trying to push the ship, it's trying to use sexuality to sell. To attract viewers. I don't care for that course of action with these characters because it encourages a child/adult ship and that is Wrong.

I feel like Stop Team Go showed a highly exaggerated version of Shego... One that ultimately probably wouldn't last in terms of friendship with Kim, because it wasn't really her and it just...wasn't real. That episode was another...pandering to fandom. A "what if they were friends" thing, clearly. Almost like fanfic onscreen.

In the end, Kim and Ron were always endgame, season four never departed from that, but the writers/animators were happy to pander to fandom a bit since they'd had quite some time to see what was popular. And in the end it's all about drawing in viewers, and thus, money.

So no, still, there was no deliberate attempt by the writers during the series to push Kigo in any way. And label it or don't label it, but Kim being a minor and Shego being a much older adult makes it not okay. If it doesn't sit right with you, it's for a reason... The reason probably being, it's a minor and an adult.

Hope this answers your questions.